Why is the US left so invested in Palestine?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 02, 2023, 10:21:41 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, Chancellor Tanterterg)
  Why is the US left so invested in Palestine?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8
Author Topic: Why is the US left so invested in Palestine?  (Read 3201 times)
Brittain33
brittain33
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,805


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2023, 09:34:59 PM »

I've learned recently this issue is particularly salient and energizing among South Asian Muslims, both in the U.S. and the U.K., perhaps even more than among Muslim Arabs despite that large geographic distance.
Logged
Pres Mike
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,289
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2023, 09:48:41 PM »

Because Jews "look white" people expect them to behave like white liberal western Jews. Deep down many white leftists are racist and don't "expect" Palestinians or Arabs to "behave" any better, so they don't hold violence or treatment of women/lgbt individuals against them.

I think Israel pretty much do behave like a liberal western country. Is anyone suggesting that if someone launched an attack on the United States like Hamas did in October that we wouldn't go and level the entire country in retaliation? Ask someone from Japan or Afghanistan about that. This is Israel getting held to a complete different standard than anyone else, pretty much being expected to let the Palestinians push them around and have no right to defend themselves.

But yes f*** the pseudointellectual child molester Foucault. People with actual good ideas get cancelled for sexual misconduct but his "poststructuralist" word salad will not die.
Thats the thing, the US didn't level Afghanistan. The US did everything it could to minimize civilan deaths because they knew it was the innocent people of Afghanistan who did 9/11, it was terrorists

I am a Palestinian. Hamas is not Palestine
Logged
Pres Mike
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,289
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2023, 09:49:51 PM »

Because its the right thing to do?

Because the US has levage, since it sends 3 billion in free money to Israel every year?
Logged
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,828
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2023, 09:54:23 PM »

Why is the US so invested in Israel?
Logged
Brittain33
brittain33
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,805


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2023, 10:00:39 PM »


But why wasnít protesting the devastation and mass murder of Arab civilians in Syria or Yemen the right thing to do? Why donít non-Arab leftist groups care or speak up about any of that? They donít have to, but is it wrong for people to notice that they donít seem to care about this as a matter of principle?
Logged
Holy Unifying Centrist
DTC
Atlas Politician
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,128


Political Matrix
E: 9.53, S: 10.54

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2023, 10:03:11 PM »

So my social media feed for the last 6 weeks has been absolutely flooded with pro-Palestinian posts, to a scale I have never seen before for an international conflict that has no direct US involvement. (The only event coming close to this scale was the start of the Russia/Ukraine war.)

I kinda get why the religious right in the US is preoccupied with defending the state of Israel, given itís key significance in evangelical end-times prophesy.

But I donít get why people on the left, especially young people, seem to care so much about Palestine.

Obviously this is a human right disaster, and for the most part I despise Netanyahu and the policies of Likud.

But I can think of at least half a dozen current or recent international conflicts that would seem to deserve at least as much investment absent purely symbolic significance (e.g. Ukraine, Armenia, Sudan, Myanmar), most involving dictators at least as odious as Netanyahu. Yet most donít get 1% of the attention Iím seeing on social media.

And the Palestinian cause seems particularly ill suited to progressive values. The likely result of a Palestinian state would be an anti-democratic, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, pro-gun oppressive theocracy. (Not to mention it would be of no benefit to the US economically or geo-politically, though I suppose the left doesnít put much value in this.)

So why does this cause rally American progressives so viscerally and uniquely?


Because the US left has no idea what it means to be working class, they hyperfocus on niche social issues that people don't agree with. If they were coming at US-Isreal aid primarily from a "US spends too much money on Isreal", it would resonate with the working class. But because they are cultural loonies with no ties to standard working class Americans, they use fatalist and hyperbolic language like "genocide".
Logged
Pres Mike
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,289
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2023, 10:04:15 PM »


But why wasnít protesting the devastation and mass murder of Arab civilians in Syria or Yemen the right thing to do?
I do remember protests aganist the Saudi led bombing in Yemen. One of the first things Biden did once he was sworn in was ending arm sales to Saudi Arabia, basically forcing a ceasefire.

Regarding Syria, the US did sanctions and armed "moderate'' insurgents. And did launch strikes after chemical weapons were used (one of the few good things Trump did)

But to answer your question, its because the US has a lot of levage with Israel. The US sends 3 billion in military aid every year in Israel. Before any law is passed in Israel, Israeli politicans debate how the US will feel about it. Netanyahu's poor relationship with Obama was often used as a campaign tactic aganist him.
Logged
GP270watch
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,093


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2023, 10:59:03 PM »

Palestine is one of the biggest humanitarian crises on Earth. You really don't have to overthink it more than that.

Not really, itís pretty unpleasant. But honestly Yemen, Sudan, Congo, and Xinjiang are worse at the top of my head.



Amnesty International is issuing an urgent call for an immediate ceasefire by all parties in the occupied Gaza Strip and Israel to prevent further loss of civilian lives and to ensure access to life-saving aid for people in Gaza amidst an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe.


 Nearly every recognizable humanitarian organization says so, so your opinion means very little.


Logged
Progressive Pessimist
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 30,167
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.71, S: -7.65

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2023, 11:15:49 PM »

I'm a bit surprised at it. I really thought it wouldn't have been such an apparent deal-breaker.

But then again, it could end up like the Afghanistan withdrawal and be mostly moved on from in a few months.

What really frustrates me though is the lack of realistic understanding or expectations of the geopolitics when it comes to Israel-US relations and what the alternative would be if a Republican was President and probably dropped a nuke on Gaza on Israelís behalf by now.
Logged
💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)
peenie_weenie
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,188
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2023, 11:27:39 PM »

Because the left wants a cudgel with which to attack Joe Biden and what they view as the mainstream of the Democratic party.
Logged
RilakkuMAGA
Rookie
**
Posts: 240
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.26, S: -2.43

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2023, 11:42:19 PM »

It's really telling that everyone is doing weird psychological analyses of progressives, usually to draw grand theoretical proclamations about how all progressives think, instead of just going "uh, the US federal government is using taxpayer $$$ to fund what is going on in Gaza."

That, and progressives are actually disproportionately Jewish, and if you grow up in the USA as a Jew, Israel to some extent is inescapable (ie, you probably at least know someone who went on birthright, got taught about Israel in Hebrew school, etc.). And so you're likely to form a strong opinion on Israel, in this case, negative.

It's clear to me that the demographic that touches the least grass is liberal centrists under 35.
Logged
Brittain33
brittain33
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,805


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2023, 06:34:35 AM »

It's really telling that everyone is doing weird psychological analyses of progressives, usually to draw grand theoretical proclamations about how all progressives think, instead of just going "uh, the US federal government is using taxpayer $$$ to fund what is going on in Gaza."

It's clear to me that the demographic that touches the least grass is liberal centrists under 35.

I know this thread specifies the US Left, but have you accounted for the fact that this is a global leftist phenomenon, just as strong in the UK and other European countries?
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,641
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2023, 06:44:19 AM »

Palestine is one of the biggest humanitarian crises on Earth. You really don't have to overthink it more than that.

Not really, itís pretty unpleasant. But honestly Yemen, Sudan, Congo, and Xinjiang are worse at the top of my head.



Amnesty International is issuing an urgent call for an immediate ceasefire by all parties in the occupied Gaza Strip and Israel to prevent further loss of civilian lives and to ensure access to life-saving aid for people in Gaza amidst an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe.


 Nearly every recognizable humanitarian organization says so, so your opinion means very little.




Amnesty International has long been a notoriously anti-Semitic, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Israel organization, so their opinion means very little here.
Logged
Senator Incitatus
AMB1996
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,161
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: 5.74

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2023, 07:21:47 AM »
« Edited: November 21, 2023, 07:26:34 AM by Senator Incitatus »

Obsessive underdog pathology is the root of the “left.”

Even those who call themselves “left” but support Israel justify that support in terms of persecution and repression; they just use a different scale than those supporting Palestine.
Logged
LabourJersey
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,973
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2023, 08:36:33 AM »

It's really telling that everyone is doing weird psychological analyses of progressives, usually to draw grand theoretical proclamations about how all progressives think, instead of just going "uh, the US federal government is using taxpayer $$$ to fund what is going on in Gaza."

That, and progressives are actually disproportionately Jewish, and if you grow up in the USA as a Jew, Israel to some extent is inescapable (ie, you probably at least know someone who went on birthright, got taught about Israel in Hebrew school, etc.). And so you're likely to form a strong opinion on Israel, in this case, negative.

It's clear to me that the demographic that touches the least grass is liberal centrists under 35.

Are you suggesting that leftists' proximity to Jewish people makes them more pro-Palestinian? Or are you saying that the more people are exposed to Israel the more polarized their opinions are of it? I can get your point if you meant the latter, I guess.

To answer the question I strongly agree with Nathan's point about the religious and post-religious neurosises being a factor. Anecdotally some of the most fervently pro-Palestinian people I see on social media are "ex-vangelicals" or others who I know were raised in more religious environments and broke away, either to other denominations or atheism. Again, just an anecdote but I think there's something there?
Logged
Devils30
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,550
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.06, S: -4.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2023, 10:18:41 AM »

Because the far left wants to establish its own junta in a Stalinist manner. Let's be honest, these leftist academics have no more respect for democracy than MAGA.
Logged
Mr. Smith
MormDem
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,369
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2023, 10:52:16 AM »

Because the far left wants to establish its own junta in a Stalinist manner. Let's be honest, these leftist academics have no more respect for democracy than MAGA.

With good reason, democracy is a means, not an end. Only the MAGAts are completely honest about this and get a pass for it. 
Logged
Overturn Dobbs
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,303


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2023, 11:17:12 AM »

Imagine clicking on this thread thinking people were actually looking for an honest answer.
Logged
Devils30
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,550
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.06, S: -4.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2023, 12:06:13 PM »

Because the far left wants to establish its own junta in a Stalinist manner. Let's be honest, these leftist academics have no more respect for democracy than MAGA.

With good reason, democracy is a means, not an end. Only the MAGAts are completely honest about this and get a pass for it. 

Ta-nehisi Coates the other week mentioned how Israel was the oldest democracy in the Mideast the same way America is the world's oldest democracy in a disparaging way. I will be voting for Biden over Trump but we need to ask ourselves to be honest to what the intersectional left's endgame is.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderators
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 33,839


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2023, 01:54:52 PM »

Incidentally, since it's been brought up a few times in this thread, I should mention that I was told fairly recently by a friend of mine who grew up Evangelical (and has no love lost for that religious current) that the "end times prophecy" explanation for Evangelical support for Israel tends to be overstated on the left. According to her there are plenty of Evangelicals who see that position as fringe and creepy and support Israel for other, much less crankish reasons.
Logged
GP270watch
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,093


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2023, 02:06:42 PM »

Palestine is one of the biggest humanitarian crises on Earth. You really don't have to overthink it more than that.

Not really, itís pretty unpleasant. But honestly Yemen, Sudan, Congo, and Xinjiang are worse at the top of my head.



Amnesty International is issuing an urgent call for an immediate ceasefire by all parties in the occupied Gaza Strip and Israel to prevent further loss of civilian lives and to ensure access to life-saving aid for people in Gaza amidst an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe.


 Nearly every recognizable humanitarian organization says so, so your opinion means very little.




Amnesty International has long been a notoriously anti-Semitic, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Israel organization, so their opinion means very little here.



Today, there are drastic shortages of necessities, such as fuel, water, and food. Medical supplies are running out and doctors are concerned about the care and safety of patients in multiple Gaza hospitals. The Egyptian Red Crescent is playing a crucial role in getting supplies into Gaza at the Rafah border, but it is not nearly enough for the over 2.2 million people in need. To ensure critical humanitarian efforts continue, the American Red Cross stands firmly with the global Red Cross Movement in calling for civilians, medical workers, health facilities and aid workers to be protected.

 -The Red Cross.

 We can keep listing all of them if you want.
Logged
GP270watch
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,093


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2023, 02:11:13 PM »

Because the far left wants to establish its own junta in a Stalinist manner. Let's be honest, these leftist academics have no more respect for democracy than MAGA.

With good reason, democracy is a means, not an end. Only the MAGAts are completely honest about this and get a pass for it. 


Ta-nehisi Coates the other week mentioned how Israel was the oldest democracy in the Mideast the same way America is the world's oldest democracy in a disparaging way. I will be voting for Biden over Trump but we need to ask ourselves to be honest to what the intersectional left's endgame is.


 This is a perfectly valid point for any Black man to bring up. Black people only got the full right to vote and equal protection under the law in the late 1960s and that was on paper, plenty of government officials still try and find many creative ways to disenfranchise Black people. Sorry the truth hurts your feelings.
Logged
Devils30
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,550
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.06, S: -4.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2023, 02:19:14 PM »

Because the far left wants to establish its own junta in a Stalinist manner. Let's be honest, these leftist academics have no more respect for democracy than MAGA.

With good reason, democracy is a means, not an end. Only the MAGAts are completely honest about this and get a pass for it.  


Ta-nehisi Coates the other week mentioned how Israel was the oldest democracy in the Mideast the same way America is the world's oldest democracy in a disparaging way. I will be voting for Biden over Trump but we need to ask ourselves to be honest to what the intersectional left's endgame is.


 This is a perfectly valid point for any Black man to bring up. Black people only got the full right to vote and equal protection under the law in the late 1960s and that was on paper, plenty of government officials still try and find many creative ways to disenfranchise Black people. Sorry the truth hurts your feelings.

Okay, so what is your solution to this problem? You are aware that Israel's point is that these Arabs in the West Bank will eventually be citizens of a Palestinian state, not Israel. I very much oppose the Israeli settlements but most of the left wants the entire country eliminated. Further, please answer the following for me:

1) Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?
2) Do you support a 2 state solution, if yes what should be the borders be?
3) Is the "right to return" required as part of a 2 state solution? If so, how many people should be allowed into what is mainland Israel.
4) If the democracies of Israel and the US are so bad, what is your alternative system?

Please answer these questions one by one.
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,641
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2023, 02:35:59 PM »

Palestine is one of the biggest humanitarian crises on Earth. You really don't have to overthink it more than that.

Not really, itís pretty unpleasant. But honestly Yemen, Sudan, Congo, and Xinjiang are worse at the top of my head.



Amnesty International is issuing an urgent call for an immediate ceasefire by all parties in the occupied Gaza Strip and Israel to prevent further loss of civilian lives and to ensure access to life-saving aid for people in Gaza amidst an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe.


 Nearly every recognizable humanitarian organization says so, so your opinion means very little.




Amnesty International has long been a notoriously anti-Semitic, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Israel organization, so their opinion means very little here.



Today, there are drastic shortages of necessities, such as fuel, water, and food. Medical supplies are running out and doctors are concerned about the care and safety of patients in multiple Gaza hospitals. The Egyptian Red Crescent is playing a crucial role in getting supplies into Gaza at the Rafah border, but it is not nearly enough for the over 2.2 million people in need. To ensure critical humanitarian efforts continue, the American Red Cross stands firmly with the global Red Cross Movement in calling for civilians, medical workers, health facilities and aid workers to be protected.

 -The Red Cross.

 We can keep listing all of them if you want.


That is pretty different from what the Amnesty International statement you posted said.  I donít disagree with anything in the Red Cross statement you posted nor does it contradict the point ingemann made.
Logged
Reactionary Libertarian
ReactionaryLibertarian
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 640
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2023, 03:14:54 PM »

Because its the right thing to do?

Because the US has levage, since it sends 3 billion in free money to Israel every year?

If the US cut Israel off, Israel would be more brutal, not less.

I think trying to end the war now is profoundly immoral. If Israel wins the war and destroys Hamas, even at great loss of life, then a better future for Palestinians in Gaza becomes possible. Meanwhile if they stop now while Hamas is still embedded, the cycle of violence is guaranteed to continue, causing much greater loss of Palestinian life in the future. Furthermore, all the Palestinians who died in this war would have died for nothing. Gaza would be destroyed, thousands of people would be dead, the blockade would still be there, and in a few years Hamas would do another attack and start things all over again.

The best way to help Gazans long term is to let Israel destroy Hamas. The best way to help them right now is to pressure Egypt and the West to open the border and let them out of the ďopen-air prisonĒ. But Palestinian supporters are more interested in making Israel look bad with civilian deaths, than saving Palestinian lives.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.061 seconds with 12 queries.