Forum vs reality

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

We have Redban that constantly poll Biden low Approvals but Trump's are low too that's why there is no red wave

[OSR stands with Israel]

You yourself once agreed and that was before 10/7

Support for Israel is non-negotiable.

Changing your opinion because of new information is good - and something you would know nothing about.

Oh , I have become even more more Israel since he made that post . New information has made me even more pro Israel

[Middle-aged Europe]

There is no reality but the forum.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

There is no reality but the forum.

Are we forming a cult?

[John Dule]

You yourself once agreed and that was before 10/7

Support for Israel is non-negotiable.

Changing your opinion because of new information is good - and something you would know nothing about.

Oh , I have become even more more Israel since he made that post . New information has made me even more pro Israel

Interesting. Watching Likud’s devolution into a fascist organization dedicated to forcibly removing Palestinians from Gaza has made me less pro-Israel. I guess you’re just built different.

[OSR stands with Israel]

You yourself once agreed and that was before 10/7

Support for Israel is non-negotiable.

Changing your opinion because of new information is good - and something you would know nothing about.

Oh , I have become even more more Israel since he made that post . New information has made me even more pro Israel

Interesting. Watching Likud’s devolution into a fascist organization dedicated to forcibly removing Palestinians from Gaza has made me less pro-Israel. I guess you’re just built different.

Looks like we are because it is absolutely insane to believe there should be a ceasefire after what happened on 10/7. Gaza needs to be occupied and denazified and no they should not be independent until that happens.

You never answered this though, did our carpet bombing of Germany in WW2 make WW2 a “both sides are bad” conflict . The obvious answer is no it did not but somehow Israel is put to this much higher standard when they are facing an enemy who wants to genocide them .

[Liminal Trans Girl]

Sigh

Look, just because the Holocaust happened doesn't give Israel the excuse or the right to commit war crimes and all that Bibi is doing is helping make Anti-Semitism worse. Bombing a hospital because there are potentially terrorists in there is a war crime. Just because you had something bad happen to you doesn't mean that you get a free pass to do bad things to others. War crimes are bad no matter who does it.

Now to address the inevitable cries of Anti-Semitism that will inevitably come.

Hamas does need to be destroyed. They're an Anti-Semitic terrorist group that will absolutely attempt a second Holocaust if given the chance. They're against peace and they repeatedly attack civilians who want nothing to do with what their government is doing. However we also need to do preventive measures to ensure that nothing like them can happen again. Their leadership is not in Gaza and are in other countries waiting to make a comeback. We should give Palestine their own state in order to ensure that groups like Hamas can't rise up again.

People go to radical ideologies for one of three reasons. The first is that they're a true believer. The second is that they see an opportunity to profit off of it. The third and final is that they're desperate.

I do not sympathize with either government in this war, but I do sympathize with their people. This war is horrific and should be stopped in order to help out the true victims in all of this. The civilians on both sides who are caught up in this war that don't want to be.

[RINO Tom]

Simply put, I'm anti-Hamas and Anti-Isreali Government.

And I'm sure there were many people in 1943 who were anti-USSR and anti-Nazi ... but sometimes you have to pick a side.

[Liminal Trans Girl]

Simply put, I'm anti-Hamas and Anti-Isreali Government.

And I'm sure there were many people in 1943 who were anti-USSR and anti-Nazi ... but sometimes you have to pick a side.

I took a side. I'm pro-civilians

[John Dule]

Looks like we are because it is absolutely insane to believe there should be a ceasefire after what happened on 10/7. Gaza needs to be occupied and denazified and no they should not be independent until that happens.

You never answered this though, did our carpet bombing of Germany in WW2 make WW2 a “both sides are bad” conflict . The obvious answer is no it did not but somehow Israel is put to this much higher standard when they are facing an enemy who wants to genocide them .

I never even said I wanted a total ceasefire! All I've said is that Israel is not even attempting to avoid civilian casualties at this point. It has killed over 11,000 people in just a month, most of whom were women and children, and the typical Israel supporter seems to have no response to this fact aside from "Collateral damage is inevitable" and "What about Dresden." This completely overlooks the fact that Gaza is not an organized, militarized nation-- it's an open-air prison that serves as an operating base for a terrorist group engaged in asymmetrical warfare, and treating the average Palestinian with the same moral equivalence of a German civilian working at a legitimate military target in WWII completely overlooks the fundamental differences between the two scenarios. Most residents of Gaza are too young to have ever supported Hamas (this is another reason why your "denazification" canard is moronic), yet Israel is indiscriminately targeting them in its bloodthirsty retribution for 10/7.

If Israel were using the billions we give them to conduct targeted, precise attacks on Hamas-- instead of bombing churches, mosques, ambulances, evacuation convoys, refugee camps, bakeries, and hospitals-- I would not be complaining. But it's clear from Likud's rhetoric in the past month that they have no interest in avoiding civilian casualties, nor do they have any interest in a two-state solution or any outcome that involves integrating Palestinians into Israeli life. Israel under Likud is an apartheid state, and history will judge us harshly for continuing to meekly support a government that is carrying out a slow-motion ethnic cleansing.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Looks like we are because it is absolutely insane to believe there should be a ceasefire after what happened on 10/7. Gaza needs to be occupied and denazified and no they should not be independent until that happens.

You never answered this though, did our carpet bombing of Germany in WW2 make WW2 a “both sides are bad” conflict . The obvious answer is no it did not but somehow Israel is put to this much higher standard when they are facing an enemy who wants to genocide them .

I never even said I wanted a total ceasefire! All I've said is that Israel is not even attempting to avoid civilian casualties at this point. It has killed over 11,000 people in just a month, most of whom were women and children, and the typical Israel supporter seems to have no response to this fact aside from "Collateral damage is inevitable" and "What about Dresden." This completely overlooks the fact that Gaza is not an organized, militarized nation-- it's an open-air prison that serves as an operating base for a terrorist group engaged in asymmetrical warfare, and treating the average Palestinian with the same moral equivalence of a German civilian working at a legitimate military target in WWII completely overlooks the fundamental differences between the two scenarios. Most residents of Gaza are too young to have ever supported Hamas (this is another reason why your "denazification" canard is moronic), yet Israel is indiscriminately targeting them in its bloodthirsty retribution for 10/7.

If Israel were using the billions we give them to conduct targeted, precise attacks on Hamas-- instead of bombing churches, mosques, ambulances, evacuation convoys, refugee camps, bakeries, and hospitals-- I would not be complaining. But it's clear from Likud's rhetoric in the past month that they have no interest in avoiding civilian casualties, nor do they have any interest in a two-state solution or any outcome that involves integrating Palestinians into Israeli life. Israel under Likud is an apartheid state, and history will judge us harshly for continuing to meekly support a government that is carrying out a slow-motion ethnic cleansing.

Again , Hamas literally uses civilian infrastructure to base military operations out off so saying it’s indiscriminate civilian bombings is absolutely false . The reason civilian targets are being bombed is because they also may very likely be military targets as well which is the reason we did most of the bombing in WW2 as well . Making it out to seem they are indiscriminately bombing civilian targets is false as has been shown multiple times . Also the refugee camp the media talked about literally has permanent buildings that Hamas had operatives in  , so saying it was Israel indiscriminately bombing civilians was completely misleading again.

Also the reason there is no two state solution is because of the fact every time Israel tried to help create a path for that , the Palestinians either rejected it or attacked it . How many times does Israel have to keep offering that and how many times do they have to be burnt before people understand there is no realistic way for a two State solution at the moment because the Palestinians don’t want one . What they want is the destruction of Israel because what they really hate Israel for is the fact that it’s a non Islamic nation in the region . It’s a fact that so many here seem to not understand but expecting Israel not to understand that is lol worthy because they 100% do understand that .

So yes the only way a two state solution can happen in the future is for the Palestinians to break from that ideology because that’s what’s preventing it . How Israel has reacted since 2008 is a response to having been burnt so many times

[President Johnson]

The conflict isn't exactly black and white, like most issues aren't. However, pretending "both sides" are equally bad in my view is a position that either comes from a lack of knowledge or a certain degree of ignorance. I'm no fan of the current government of Israel, which unfortunately is headed by a crook under multiple corruption investigations and who launched an assault on the independent judicial branch. Not to mention his government's policies on settlements, that makes a two-state solution much more difficult to accomplish. Nonetheless, Hamas as well as their allies from Hezbollah and the Iranian regime, are literal terrorists that launched a cynical and barbaric attack on Israeli civilians. Israel's armed forces have every right to hunt them down. But not only has Hamas the blood of innocent Israelis on their hands, they're also responsible for countless deaths of Palestinians. Both by slaughtering all opposition and using them as human shields. Furthermore, Hamas spends all its resources on arms and warfare against Israel while civilians in Gaza live in horrific conditions. So, let's not pretend it's all the same. It's not.

Objective criticism of the Israeli government should be allowed of course, especially the governments of Bibi, which I would argue have done a lot of harm to Israel as well (especially the utter incompetence in advance of this attack as they failed to see it coming). Equally, there are fair points to criticize individual actions by the armed forces of Israel. Nonetheless, it's not comparable to the warfare by Hamas. It wasn't Israel's army that used a hospital as a storage for ammunition and weapons en masse (just to name one example).

The problem is that some supposed criticism of Israel's government and military quickly turns into antisemitic rants and a blatant ignorance towards historical realities (maybe not on this forum, more broadly speaking). And that's at least in my opinion simply unacceptable. Israel's right to exist isn't negotiable. Especially for the reasons it was founded, Europe and America have an obligation to make sure that is never threatened. It doesn't mean we can't express any concerns and criticism, even among allied nations disagreements should be openly discussed. But we as the collective Western world should never turn away from our basic principles that Israel has a right to exist and that any form of antisemitism is unacceptable.

[Red Velvet]

“Fail” to see it coming?? I would argue the “failure” worked as it was intended to.

[Middle-aged Europe]

There is no reality but the forum.

Are we forming a cult?

The Cult of Olawakandi.

[John Dule]

Looks like we are because it is absolutely insane to believe there should be a ceasefire after what happened on 10/7. Gaza needs to be occupied and denazified and no they should not be independent until that happens.

You never answered this though, did our carpet bombing of Germany in WW2 make WW2 a “both sides are bad” conflict . The obvious answer is no it did not but somehow Israel is put to this much higher standard when they are facing an enemy who wants to genocide them .

I never even said I wanted a total ceasefire! All I've said is that Israel is not even attempting to avoid civilian casualties at this point. It has killed over 11,000 people in just a month, most of whom were women and children, and the typical Israel supporter seems to have no response to this fact aside from "Collateral damage is inevitable" and "What about Dresden." This completely overlooks the fact that Gaza is not an organized, militarized nation-- it's an open-air prison that serves as an operating base for a terrorist group engaged in asymmetrical warfare, and treating the average Palestinian with the same moral equivalence of a German civilian working at a legitimate military target in WWII completely overlooks the fundamental differences between the two scenarios. Most residents of Gaza are too young to have ever supported Hamas (this is another reason why your "denazification" canard is moronic), yet Israel is indiscriminately targeting them in its bloodthirsty retribution for 10/7.

If Israel were using the billions we give them to conduct targeted, precise attacks on Hamas-- instead of bombing churches, mosques, ambulances, evacuation convoys, refugee camps, bakeries, and hospitals-- I would not be complaining. But it's clear from Likud's rhetoric in the past month that they have no interest in avoiding civilian casualties, nor do they have any interest in a two-state solution or any outcome that involves integrating Palestinians into Israeli life. Israel under Likud is an apartheid state, and history will judge us harshly for continuing to meekly support a government that is carrying out a slow-motion ethnic cleansing.

Again , Hamas literally uses civilian infrastructure to base military operations out off so saying it’s indiscriminate civilian bombings is absolutely false . The reason civilian targets are being bombed is because they also may very likely be military targets as well which is the reason we did most of the bombing in WW2 as well . Making it out to seem they are indiscriminately bombing civilian targets is false as has been shown multiple times . Also the refugee camp the media talked about literally has permanent buildings that Hamas had operatives in  , so saying it was Israel indiscriminately bombing civilians was completely misleading again.

Also the reason there is no two state solution is because of the fact every time Israel tried to help create a path for that , the Palestinians either rejected it or attacked it . How many times does Israel have to keep offering that and how many times do they have to be burnt before people understand there is no realistic way for a two State solution at the moment because the Palestinians don’t want one . What they want is the destruction of Israel because what they really hate Israel for is the fact that it’s a non Islamic nation in the region . It’s a fact that so many here seem to not understand but expecting Israel not to understand that is lol worthy because they 100% do understand that .

So yes the only way a two state solution can happen in the future is for the Palestinians to break from that ideology because that’s what’s preventing it . How Israel has reacted since 2008 is a response to having been burnt so many times

I'm not saying that Israel doesn't strike any legitimate targets. But you cannot look at the past month and say that they have only struck legitimate targets. The fact that Palestinians rejected the two-state solution in the past does not mean that children today-- who were not alive in the 90s-- deserve to suffer, but again, Likud has no interest in minimizing civilian casualties. There are people in the Israeli government who are literally discussing nuking Gaza or forcibly expelling two million people from the region. There are people in the legislature of this country advocating for killing everyone in Gaza.

In the past, my support for Israel has been for exactly the reason you mention: They have been the party in this conflict that is open to a two-state solution. That is clearly no longer the case, and thus they have lost my support. Whether they say it out loud or not, I have come to believe that Likud's ultimate goal is to expel all Palestinians from Gaza (and possibly the West Bank too), creating an enormous refugee crisis and killing tens of thousands of people in the process. This is evident from both their rhetoric and their actions, and no thinking person can endorse it.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Looks like we are because it is absolutely insane to believe there should be a ceasefire after what happened on 10/7. Gaza needs to be occupied and denazified and no they should not be independent until that happens.

You never answered this though, did our carpet bombing of Germany in WW2 make WW2 a “both sides are bad” conflict . The obvious answer is no it did not but somehow Israel is put to this much higher standard when they are facing an enemy who wants to genocide them .

I never even said I wanted a total ceasefire! All I've said is that Israel is not even attempting to avoid civilian casualties at this point. It has killed over 11,000 people in just a month, most of whom were women and children, and the typical Israel supporter seems to have no response to this fact aside from "Collateral damage is inevitable" and "What about Dresden." This completely overlooks the fact that Gaza is not an organized, militarized nation-- it's an open-air prison that serves as an operating base for a terrorist group engaged in asymmetrical warfare, and treating the average Palestinian with the same moral equivalence of a German civilian working at a legitimate military target in WWII completely overlooks the fundamental differences between the two scenarios. Most residents of Gaza are too young to have ever supported Hamas (this is another reason why your "denazification" canard is moronic), yet Israel is indiscriminately targeting them in its bloodthirsty retribution for 10/7.

If Israel were using the billions we give them to conduct targeted, precise attacks on Hamas-- instead of bombing churches, mosques, ambulances, evacuation convoys, refugee camps, bakeries, and hospitals-- I would not be complaining. But it's clear from Likud's rhetoric in the past month that they have no interest in avoiding civilian casualties, nor do they have any interest in a two-state solution or any outcome that involves integrating Palestinians into Israeli life. Israel under Likud is an apartheid state, and history will judge us harshly for continuing to meekly support a government that is carrying out a slow-motion ethnic cleansing.

Again , Hamas literally uses civilian infrastructure to base military operations out off so saying it’s indiscriminate civilian bombings is absolutely false . The reason civilian targets are being bombed is because they also may very likely be military targets as well which is the reason we did most of the bombing in WW2 as well . Making it out to seem they are indiscriminately bombing civilian targets is false as has been shown multiple times . Also the refugee camp the media talked about literally has permanent buildings that Hamas had operatives in  , so saying it was Israel indiscriminately bombing civilians was completely misleading again.

Also the reason there is no two state solution is because of the fact every time Israel tried to help create a path for that , the Palestinians either rejected it or attacked it . How many times does Israel have to keep offering that and how many times do they have to be burnt before people understand there is no realistic way for a two State solution at the moment because the Palestinians don’t want one . What they want is the destruction of Israel because what they really hate Israel for is the fact that it’s a non Islamic nation in the region . It’s a fact that so many here seem to not understand but expecting Israel not to understand that is lol worthy because they 100% do understand that .

So yes the only way a two state solution can happen in the future is for the Palestinians to break from that ideology because that’s what’s preventing it . How Israel has reacted since 2008 is a response to having been burnt so many times

I'm not saying that Israel doesn't strike any legitimate targets. But you cannot look at the past month and say that they have only struck legitimate targets. The fact that Palestinians rejected the two-state solution in the past does not mean that children today-- who were not alive in the 90s-- deserve to suffer, but again, Likud has no interest in minimizing civilian casualties. There are people in the Israeli government who are literally discussing nuking Gaza or forcibly expelling two million people from the region. There are people in the legislature of this country advocating for killing everyone in Gaza.

In the past, my support for Israel has been for exactly the reason you mention: They have been the party in this conflict that is open to a two-state solution. That is clearly no longer the case, and thus they have lost my support. Whether they say it out loud or not, I have come to believe that Likud's ultimate goal is to expel all Palestinians from Gaza (and possibly the West Bank too), creating an enormous refugee crisis and killing tens of thousands of people in the process. This is evident from both their rhetoric and their actions, and no thinking person can endorse it.

1. The problem isn’t just Hamas but the PLO as well and the whole Islamist Ideology attitudes towards the state of Israel . Until they can accept that a state that isn’t majority Islamic should be able to exist in the region , there literally is no way peace will ever be possible or a two state solution.

2. Look at the tweet I posted about the type of bombings we did to take out ISIS and you can see what we didn’t isn’t that different what Israel is currently doing . The main difference why the rate of civilian casualties seems to be higher here is because Hamas had far more time than ISIS did to integrate military infrastructure and equipment into existing civilian infrastructure. 

3. Al Jazeera is extremely biased on this issue and should be trusted

4. Why should Israel keep working towards a two state solution if Palestinians aren’t interested. The fact is the only way a two state solution is if Palestinians at the very least abandon part of the ideology that refuses to accept the fact there can be a non Islamic state in the region . Until they do , it’s completely pointless for Israel to work on a two state solution.

This is why I said that what’s needs to be done is Gaza to be occupied and then depropagandized . Now if the international community thinks Israel should not be the one that occupies Gaza post invasion, then they should be willing to support a UN resolution that has the UN occupy Gaza but the fact is they aren’t willing to do that which makes it so that Israel has to be the one that does it .

Hell you don’t even need the UN , but just some type of coalition of countries that are willing to do it . Ideally the other Arab states who claim not to believe in that ideology should be the ones to do it but the fact is they have explicitly implemented policies that basically tells the world “this is not our problem”. Well if that’s the case then Israel needs to be the one who does it because someone has to do it

[RINO Tom]

Simply put, I'm anti-Hamas and Anti-Isreali Government.

And I'm sure there were many people in 1943 who were anti-USSR and anti-Nazi ... but sometimes you have to pick a side.

I took a side. I'm pro-civilians

Everyone is "pro-civilians."  That doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of any sort of coherent "stance" on this issue.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

75% of Palestinians view Hamas in a positive manner and back the 10/7 attacks

[John Dule]

1. The problem isn’t just Hamas but the PLO as well and the whole Islamist Ideology attitudes towards the state of Israel . Until they can accept that a state that isn’t majority Islamic should be able to exist in the region , there literally is no way peace will ever be possible or a two state solution.

I agree that it's stupid for people to pretend that antisemitism is not a primary motivator behind Hamas. I also think it's stupid for people to pretend that antisemitism is the only reason why Palestinians might have a problem with Israeli settlers evicting them from their homes.

2. Look at the tweet I posted about the type of bombings we did to take out ISIS and you can see what we didn’t isn’t that different what Israel is currently doing . The main difference why the rate of civilian casualties seems to be higher here is because Hamas had far more time than ISIS did to integrate military infrastructure and equipment into existing civilian infrastructure. 

Huh, so maybe since the circumstances are different here, the attacks should be carried out in a different way? Oh, never mind. How silly of me to suggest such a thing.

3. Al Jazeera is extremely biased on this issue and should be trusted

K

4. Why should Israel keep working towards a two state solution if Palestinians aren’t interested. The fact is the only way a two state solution is if Palestinians at the very least abandon part of the ideology that refuses to accept the fact there can be a non Islamic state in the region . Until they do , it’s completely pointless for Israel to work on a two state solution.

Uh... because the alternative is either the status quo (an apartheid system interrupted by occasional episodes of brutal conflict) or ethnic cleansing? Hamas has no interest in ever recognizing Israel, I agree-- and they cannot be reasoned with. But that does not give Israel free license to kill Palestinians. Again, Israel was worthy of our support when it was the reasonable party in this conflict, and was willing to accept a solution short of the destruction of its enemy. With Likud politicians in charge, I no longer believe that is the case.

This is why I said that what’s needs to be done is Gaza to be occupied and then depropagandized . Now if the international community thinks Israel should not be the one that occupies Gaza post invasion, then they should be willing to support a UN resolution that has the UN occupy Gaza but the fact is they aren’t willing to do that which makes it so that Israel has to be the one that does it .

Hell you don’t even need the UN , but just some type of coalition of countries that are willing to do it . Ideally the other Arab states who claim not to believe in that ideology should be the ones to do it but the fact is they have explicitly implemented policies that basically tells the world “this is not our problem”. Well if that’s the case then Israel needs to be the one who does it because someone has to do it

I agree with this in theory, but look at what's happened in the past when an occupying force has tried to change "hearts and minds." How many times must we attempt this broken approach before we realize that you can't persuade someone with logic when you have them at gunpoint?

I honestly don't have a solution, and at this point I'm extremely pessimistic about this conflict. I think it is destined for unspeakable bloodshed, and I am not going to hold hands with Netanyahu Thelma & Louise-style as he drives off that cliff. If you really want to keep justifying Likud's actions to the bitter end, have fun. I may have to watch the world burn in my lifetime, but if that's the case, I'm going to find a better way to spend my time than anonymously defending war crimes on the internet. I wash my hands of this.

[ProudModerate2]

... You never answered this though, did our carpet bombing of Germany in WW2 make WW2 a “both sides are bad” conflict . The obvious answer is no it did not but somehow Israel is put to this much higher standard when they are facing an enemy who wants to genocide them .

You can not compare WWII with today.
We (the world) need to be better, than how we "acted" 80 years ago.

Also, Germany in WWII was still a very powerful force (threat) up until say 6-9 months before V-E day. Other than the massive botch (in defenses and intelligence) by Israel on Oct 7, Israel now has the enormous upper-hand in this "war" (militarily), and are no longer in threat of anything significant happening from Hamas/Gaza. (If Israel had more defense forces and structures/fortifications along the perimeter, this would have never happened; other than a bunch of dead Hamas fighters.)