Who should resign in Canada over the Waffen SS standing ovation?

[Aurelius2]

There were unaligned Ukrainian partisans, your realize.

Sure.

That doesn't make Ukrainians fighting Soviets in World War II in defence of Ukraine clearly wrong, just as it doesn't make Finns fighting Soviets in World War II in defence of Finland clearly wrong. Stalin was as evil as Hitler and, less we forget, was an ally of Hitler from 1939-1941.

"So between 1939 and 1941, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are allies. And Stalin actually provides very substantial support to Nazi Germany. So when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, this time it was Stalin who is taken by surprise."

At best, you are engaging in the Historian's fallacy.

Ukraine was under attack by the Nazi war machine intent on dismantling Ukrainian statehood and turning the Ukrainian population into a permanent slave class. I don't think they were defending Ukraine at all.

Yes, a tough position for anybody there, since Stalin had already done that and was intent on maintaining it. But, it's probably impossible to know what this guy believed at the time. It's called 'the fog of war' for a reason.

Well he voluntarily joined a Waffen-SS regiment, so my inclination is not to be charitable.

That's the crux isn't it, its one thing to see Nazis as the "lesser evil" or even "useful idiots" after the Holodomor and all the rest of it - but getting into the Waffen SS was a mark of loyalty to the wider project, people were even screened for "soundness" beforehand (though this probably did degrade a bit in the chaotic closing days of the war) Hunka knew just what he was doing, virtually certainly.

Yep, and this is not remotely a Finland situation either (not that that excuses the small number of Finnish SS volunteers; I refer to the vast majority who fought against the Soviets purely to preserve their territory and independence, then fought the Nazis when they refused to leave Laplamd).

[Aurelius2]

If this had occurred in the legislative body of America, rather than Canada, Frank would not be writing walls of text of apologia. I'd bet money on that.

[Hatman 🍁]

My takeaway here: invade Canada.

Given what's happening in Ukraine, these kinds of posts are not funny. Go f**k yourself.

Anyway, to add to the list of who should be fired, surely there was some staffer who's fault it was originally. I mean, Rota should have been smart enough to vet this, so glad to see he resigned as well. But I hope the staffer's gone too.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

My takeaway here: invade Canada.

Given what's happening in Ukraine, these kinds of posts are not funny. Go f**k yourself.

Anyway, to add to the list of who should be fired, surely there was some staffer who's fault it was originally. I mean, Rota should have been smart enough to vet this, so glad to see he resigned as well. But I hope the staffer's gone too.

This is a tremendously embarrassing reply.

[Senator Incitatus]

Canadians should be wary of drawing comparisons to Russia, considering they are currently under intense international scrutiny for harboring separatist terrorist groups and celebrating fascism. One can only conclude that megalomaniacs Justin Trudeau and Charles III wish to restore their previous borders in India. Beware of sanctions!

[Stranger in a strange land]

Canadians should be wary of drawing comparisons to Russia, considering they are currently under intense international scrutiny for harboring separatist terrorist groups and celebrating fascism. One can only conclude that megalomaniacs Justin Trudeau and Charles III wish to restore their previous borders in India. Beware of sanctions!

Speaking of which, to tie together several recent news stories, why do diaspora communities in Canada in particular seem so prone to violent radical nationalism? The Ukrainian diaspora in Canada has long been notorious for having a lot of veterans of the Galician SS Division and OUN-B, the Kalistan movement is based in Canada, the Tamil and Armenian diasporas are known for being vocal and radical, and clashes often happen between pro-and anti-CCP Chinese whenever the Chinese government does something controversial. Of course none of this justifies Russian disinformation and slander or India assassinating Sikh activists, but why?

[Senator Incitatus]

Canadians should be wary of drawing comparisons to Russia, considering they are currently under intense international scrutiny for harboring separatist terrorist groups and celebrating fascism. One can only conclude that megalomaniacs Justin Trudeau and Charles III wish to restore their previous borders in India. Beware of sanctions!

Speaking of which, to tie together several recent news stories, why do diaspora communities in Canada in particular seem so prone to violent radical nationalism? The Ukrainian diaspora in Canada has long been notorious for having a lot of veterans of the Galician SS Division and OUN-B, the Kalistan movement is based in Canada, the Tamil and Armenian diasporas are known for being vocal and radical, and clashes often happen between pro-and anti-CCP Chinese whenever the Chinese government does something controversial. Of course none of this justifies Russian disinformation and slander or India assassinating Sikh activists, but why?

If I had to give an actual serious answer, I would say that a society with openness and cultural pluralism provides a good haven for dissidents from all over but in its extreme form creates ethnic enclaves where they can operate pretty much unmolested. But you may also be overstating the issue and there are plenty of examples of this, like Meir Kahane, elsewhere.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Canadians should be wary of drawing comparisons to Russia, considering they are currently under intense international scrutiny for harboring separatist terrorist groups and celebrating fascism. One can only conclude that megalomaniacs Justin Trudeau and Charles III wish to restore their previous borders in India. Beware of sanctions!

Speaking of which, to tie together several recent news stories, why do diaspora communities in Canada in particular seem so prone to violent radical nationalism? The Ukrainian diaspora in Canada has long been notorious for having a lot of veterans of the Galician SS Division and OUN-B, the Kalistan movement is based in Canada, the Tamil and Armenian diasporas are known for being vocal and radical, and clashes often happen between pro-and anti-CCP Chinese whenever the Chinese government does something controversial. Of course none of this justifies Russian disinformation and slander or India assassinating Sikh activists, but why?

If I had to give an actual serious answer, I would say that a society with openness and cultural pluralism provides a good haven for dissidents from all over but in its extreme form creates ethnic enclaves where they can operate pretty much unmolested. But you may also be overstating the issue and there are plenty of examples of this, like Meir Kahane, elsewhere.

I would also suggest Canada's lack of a national identity for people to assimilate into as a big part of this. This has been an issue for like, all of Canada's history: arguably the Quebec problem is a result of this, but Canada was also notable for having really big enlistment gaps between European immigrants and British-ancestry and particularly British born Canadians during the World Wars. As a result, arrivals and even long standing ethnic groups in Canada are less likely to stop caring about group-specific issues.

[Red Velvet]

Canadians should be wary of drawing comparisons to Russia, considering they are currently under intense international scrutiny for harboring separatist terrorist groups and celebrating fascism. One can only conclude that megalomaniacs Justin Trudeau and Charles III wish to restore their previous borders in India. Beware of sanctions!

Speaking of which, to tie together several recent news stories, why do diaspora communities in Canada in particular seem so prone to violent radical nationalism? The Ukrainian diaspora in Canada has long been notorious for having a lot of veterans of the Galician SS Division and OUN-B, the Kalistan movement is based in Canada, the Tamil and Armenian diasporas are known for being vocal and radical, and clashes often happen between pro-and anti-CCP Chinese whenever the Chinese government does something controversial. Of course none of this justifies Russian disinformation and slander or India assassinating Sikh activists, but why?

If I had to give an actual serious answer, I would say that a society with openness and cultural pluralism provides a good haven for dissidents from all over but in its extreme form creates ethnic enclaves where they can operate pretty much unmolested. But you may also be overstating the issue and there are plenty of examples of this, like Meir Kahane, elsewhere.

I would also suggest Canada's lack of a national identity for people to assimilate into as a big part of this. This has been an issue for like, all of Canada's history: arguably the Quebec problem is a result of this, but Canada was also notable for having really big enlistment gaps between European immigrants and British-ancestry and particularly British born Canadians during the World Wars. As a result, arrivals and even long standing ethnic groups in Canada are less likely to stop caring about group-specific issues.

Great answer. Yes, you’re correct. Canada seems a pretty chill place to live but it lacks a strong or even minimal national identity. Which makes people even after generations still “feel” connected to their country of origin.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I find it strange that you're more concerned with arguing with me about this, than with the people here who still whitewash the history of the Nazi Pope (AKA Hitler's Pope) when that discussion come up a while back.

This is a reasonable point. The short explanation here is that I don't feel as free to get into the trenches on this stuff on boards I moderate. If Pius XII had come up on some other board I'd have been much more concerned with arguing with the people who were relativizing his actions.

For the rest, I'll just say that you're making hyperspecific distinctions that I find sophistic and unhelpful, and that really all of us know what we're discussing and what's at stake when we discuss it.

[Blair]

It’s very weird that no one noticed as even when I was 18 I knew that someone ‘fighting against the Soviet Union  for Ukrainian independence in WW2’ would at the very least be fascist aligned or adjacent, and in this case it appears to be much much worse.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Freeland has no excuse, given her background and interest in Ukraine. Does this mean she is a Nazi sympathizer? No, of course not, one can have some sympathy for Ukrainians who opposed the Soviet Union. But as a public figure in Canada, she represents Canadians, many of whom have ancestors who sacrificed their lives to defeat Nazi Germany. For this reason, I think she should resign - Canada can’t have a leader at this level who is okay with state celebrations that insult the memory of its heroes.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Literally all of Canada should resign.

[compucomp]

I repudiate the Courage the Cowardly Wumao recommendations I've been getting in this thread, by the way. I knew what he's about when it comes to recommending posts on this story and I want no part of it.

This post is highly amusing and validates my strategy; if I can get under your skin simply by liking posts, then you'd better believe I'm going to continue. You can ban me for liking the "wrong" posts, but then you'd be so deep into censorship it's beyond China's.

On the subject, this is a total unforced error and exposes the hypocrisy of the Western cause, similar to the Indian assassination of the Sikh activist. At this point, we're in a new Cold War and anything negative for the West is good for China. I love to see it because it forces you to choose between two bad options: stay true to your principles and attack your ally, or condone the action and show the hypocrisy? I commend you for sticking to your principles in this case and criticizing your ally, I know it hurts to do but you're doing the right thing.

[Upper Canada Tory]

There were unaligned Ukrainian partisans, your realize.

Sure.

That doesn't make Ukrainians fighting Soviets in World War II in defence of Ukraine clearly wrong, just as it doesn't make Finns fighting Soviets in World War II in defence of Finland clearly wrong. Stalin was as evil as Hitler and, less we forget, was an ally of Hitler from 1939-1941.

"So between 1939 and 1941, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are allies. And Stalin actually provides very substantial support to Nazi Germany. So when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, this time it was Stalin who is taken by surprise."

At best, you are engaging in the Historian's fallacy.

In defence of Ukraine? Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union at the time and was invaded by Nazi Germany. Pre-war Western Ukraine was a part of Poland, a country also invaded by Nazi Germany. How was fighting in the Waffen-SS 'self-defence'?

[Aurelius2]

Compucomp, you have literally admitted on here to changing your views based on the changing CCP party line. You have no right to lecture us on censorship when you engage in self-censorship that deep. Honestly I'm just impressed that you manage to be so consistently wrong on everything, going straight from advocating we all be locked into our homes indefinitely, to cheering on the invader in a naked war of aggression. So don't act surprised that people want to make it clear they don't share your views.

And what is this "strategy" you speak of? This is a niche internet forum. You are not on some grand crusade of Winning Hearts and Minds.

[Upper Canada Tory]

The fog has cleared. Hunka can see the Waffen-SS clearly now and is still proud of his time with them.

Were you in his situation at that time?

I don't mean to equate the two, but you could also take a neutral position and not judge Hunka rather than feel the need to be morally superior.

The 'were you in his situation?' argument in here is so baseless and ahistorical that I'm shocked at the level of ignorance.

Most people in WWII-era Ukraine, people who were in his situation, fought on the side of the Soviet Union, against the Nazis.

Collectively, the Ukrainians who joined the OUN, UIA and SS-Galicia were at most, 300,000 people. On the other hand, 3 million Ukrainians joined the Soviet Army to defeat the Nazis. Ukrainians actually were one of the nations that, overall, contributed the most to defeating Hitler in WWII. Those who sided with the Nazis were a fringe minority among Ukrainians, despite Ukrainians having suffered the Soviet Union's horrible atrocities as well, which of course, I recognize.

I will judge Hunka, personally - my family are Jews from Ukraine and some of my ancestors were killed in the atrocities that took place during the Holocaust. In total, over 1 million Jews were killed in that country thanks to the Nazis and those who fought in their army. Regardless of his individual motivations for fighting in the Waffen-SS, that is the cause and ideology he was fighting for.

Especially coming from you and people of your ideological persuasion, where you often refer to people such as the Freedom Convoy protesters 'fascists and terrorists', Israel an 'apartheid government', Modi a 'Hindu supremacist' but a literal Waffen-SS member? 'He was fighting in defence of Ukraine' and 'Were you in his situation?' LOL! The cognitive dissonance. Everyone is a fascist and a supremacist except a literal Waffen-SS guy.

I was initially shocked to see that, not only did our ignorant House Speaker invite a Nazi to be honoured in the legislative chamber without proper vetting, but that all our Members of Parliament were so ignorant they did not think twice when applauding, as Rota announced, 'a Ukrainian WWII veteran who fought against Russia for Ukrainian independence' (as if it is not obvious who he fought for from that introduction), but now that I've observed how many ignorant people we have in Canada, it is sadly less surprising.

My apologies for getting overly passionate in this post, I rarely ever talk like this - but this is an issue close to my heart for obvious reasons.

[Upper Canada Tory]

I am becoming very concerned about the curriculum at the selective high school at which Benjamin Frank teaches.

I am becoming very concerned that this is not just the curriculum in Benjamin Frank's school, but that Canadian society has become appallingly ignorant. You can put 338 Canadian lawmakers in room, tell them that a 'Ukrainian veteran who fought against Russia in World War II' was a good guy, and they will give him a standing ovation like sheep.

[Red Velvet]

My apologies for getting overly passionate in this post, I rarely ever talk like this - but this is an issue close to my heart for obvious reasons.

What are you apologizing for? You didn’t sound overly passionate or aggressive, only assertive about the position you have.

[Upper Canada Tory]

My apologies for getting overly passionate in this post, I rarely ever talk like this - but this is an issue close to my heart for obvious reasons.

What are you apologizing for? You didn’t sound overly passionate or aggressive, only assertive about the position you have.

You know what? Maybe Canadians just apologize too much. 

[Benjamin Frank]

There were unaligned Ukrainian partisans, your realize.

Sure.

That doesn't make Ukrainians fighting Soviets in World War II in defence of Ukraine clearly wrong, just as it doesn't make Finns fighting Soviets in World War II in defence of Finland clearly wrong. Stalin was as evil as Hitler and, less we forget, was an ally of Hitler from 1939-1941.

"So between 1939 and 1941, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are allies. And Stalin actually provides very substantial support to Nazi Germany. So when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, this time it was Stalin who is taken by surprise."

At best, you are engaging in the Historian's fallacy.

In defence of Ukraine? Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union at the time and was invaded by Nazi Germany. Pre-war Western Ukraine was a part of Poland, a country also invaded by Nazi Germany. How was fighting in the Waffen-SS 'self-defence'?

Most Ukrainians have never considered themselves as part of Russia/the Soviet Union, so it's not impossible to believe that he saw himself as fighting on behalf of Ukraine.

[Benjamin Frank]

I find it strange that you're more concerned with arguing with me about this, than with the people here who still whitewash the history of the Nazi Pope (AKA Hitler's Pope) when that discussion come up a while back.

This is a reasonable point. The short explanation here is that I don't feel as free to get into the trenches on this stuff on boards I moderate. If Pius XII had come up on some other board I'd have been much more concerned with arguing with the people who were relativizing his actions.

For the rest, I'll just say that you're making hyperspecific distinctions that I find sophistic and unhelpful, and that really all of us know what we're discussing and what's at stake when we discuss it.

I sympathize with some of what you are saying and certainly I could be blinded by what he has done, but you clearly have a position here of "I'm right and you can't disagree with me on the facts of the situation." History is rarely that clear.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I repudiate the Courage the Cowardly Wumao recommendations I've been getting in this thread, by the way. I know what he's about when it comes to recommending posts on this story and I want no part of it.

This post is highly amusing and validates my strategy; if I can get under your skin simply by liking posts, then you'd better believe I'm going to continue. You can ban me for liking the "wrong" posts, but then you'd be so deep into censorship it's beyond China's.

It's not that you're getting under my skin; I try to make it my policy to be clear when I don't want someone's support or validation, at least when it comes to issues that connect to one another in difficult and sensitive ways like Ukraine's wartime experience in the 1940s and its wartime experience today. You're also not in any danger of being banned, because no, this forum's moderator team does not have the standards of Big Daddy Xi's walled-garden internet and has no desire to adopt them. Your current "posting" "strategy" is funny, not upsetting.

On the subject, this is a total unforced error and exposes the hypocrisy of the Western cause, similar to the Indian assassination of the Sikh activist. At this point, we're in a new Cold War and anything negative for the West is good for China. I love to see it because it forces you to choose between two bad options: stay true to your principles and attack your ally, or condone the action and show the hypocrisy? I commend you for sticking to your principles in this case and criticizing your ally, I know it hurts to do but you're doing the right thing.

It actually doesn't hurt at all, but thanks, I guess.

[Benjamin Frank]

The fog has cleared. Hunka can see the Waffen-SS clearly now and is still proud of his time with them.

Were you in his situation at that time?

I don't mean to equate the two, but you could also take a neutral position and not judge Hunka rather than feel the need to be morally superior.

The 'were you in his situation?' argument in here is so baseless and ahistorical that I'm shocked at the level of ignorance.

Most people in WWII-era Ukraine, people who were in his situation, fought on the side of the Soviet Union, against the Nazis.

Collectively, the Ukrainians who joined the OUN, UIA and SS-Galicia were at most, 300,000 people. On the other hand, 3 million Ukrainians joined the Soviet Army to defeat the Nazis. Ukrainians actually were one of the nations that, overall, contributed the most to defeating Hitler in WWII. Those who sided with the Nazis were a fringe minority among Ukrainians, despite Ukrainians having suffered the Soviet Union's horrible atrocities as well, which of course, I recognize.

I will judge Hunka, personally - my family are Jews from Ukraine and some of my ancestors were killed in the atrocities that took place during the Holocaust. In total, over 1 million Jews were killed in that country thanks to the Nazis and those who fought in their army. Regardless of his individual motivations for fighting in the Waffen-SS, that is the cause and ideology he was fighting for.

Especially coming from you and people of your ideological persuasion, where you often refer to people such as the Freedom Convoy protesters 'fascists and terrorists', Israel an 'apartheid government', Modi a 'Hindu supremacist' but a literal Waffen-SS member? 'He was fighting in defence of Ukraine' and 'Were you in his situation?' LOL! The cognitive dissonance. Everyone is a fascist and a supremacist except a literal Waffen-SS guy.

I was initially shocked to see that, not only did our ignorant House Speaker invite a Nazi to be honoured in the legislative chamber without proper vetting, but that all our Members of Parliament were so ignorant they did not think twice when applauding, as Rota announced, 'a Ukrainian WWII veteran who fought against Russia for Ukrainian independence' (as if it is not obvious who he fought for from that introduction), but now that I've observed how many ignorant people we have in Canada, it is sadly less surprising.

My apologies for getting overly passionate in this post, I rarely ever talk like this - but this is an issue close to my heart for obvious reasons.

1.You left out that the Ukrainains fighting with the Soviet Union were conscripts and not volunteers.

2.If we're going to get into this, I'm Jewish as well as I've mentioned here many times, and relatives of my grandfather were killed in the Holocaust. When I defend this guy for making a choice in a no win situation, I don't do it lightly.

3.No, I don't think that everybody is a fascist or a supremicist except for this guy. That is disingenuous. It's called making a judgement in specific situations rather than making blanket judgements in a binary or absolutist fashion. Referring to the terrorist occupiers of Ottawa as the 'Freedom Convoy' is a joke. Nobody forced them into that choice and the only 'rights' they cared about were their own enormous sense of entitlement. Those people are their supporters are by far the most ignorant Canadians.

[Benjamin Frank]

Canadians should be wary of drawing comparisons to Russia, considering they are currently under intense international scrutiny for harboring separatist terrorist groups and celebrating fascism. One can only conclude that megalomaniacs Justin Trudeau and Charles III wish to restore their previous borders in India. Beware of sanctions!

Speaking of which, to tie together several recent news stories, why do diaspora communities in Canada in particular seem so prone to violent radical nationalism? The Ukrainian diaspora in Canada has long been notorious for having a lot of veterans of the Galician SS Division and OUN-B, the Kalistan movement is based in Canada, the Tamil and Armenian diasporas are known for being vocal and radical, and clashes often happen between pro-and anti-CCP Chinese whenever the Chinese government does something controversial. Of course none of this justifies Russian disinformation and slander or India assassinating Sikh activists, but why?

If I had to give an actual serious answer, I would say that a society with openness and cultural pluralism provides a good haven for dissidents from all over but in its extreme form creates ethnic enclaves where they can operate pretty much unmolested. But you may also be overstating the issue and there are plenty of examples of this, like Meir Kahane, elsewhere.

I would also suggest Canada's lack of a national identity for people to assimilate into as a big part of this. This has been an issue for like, all of Canada's history: arguably the Quebec problem is a result of this, but Canada was also notable for having really big enlistment gaps between European immigrants and British-ancestry and particularly British born Canadians during the World Wars. As a result, arrivals and even long standing ethnic groups in Canada are less likely to stop caring about group-specific issues.

Great answer. Yes, you’re correct. Canada seems a pretty chill place to live but it lacks a strong or even minimal national identity. Which makes people even after generations still “feel” connected to their country of origin.

As a Canadian, I think I can say that is not at all accurate. Of course there are exceptions, but the far bigger factor is the size of Canada which is the reason for the lack of national identity and most Canadians feel most connected to their province or region, and that is absolutely true of diaspora Canadians as well.

It's not a surprise given it's size and proximity to Ottawa that the province where most people think they have a national identity or speak for Canada is Ontario. Part of the provincial identity of Ontario is believing that its identity is the national identity, which has bred some resentment in the rest of Canada.

Given how similar Canadian provinces are to their adjacent U.S states (except for Quebec), if you are going to argue that Canada doesn't have a national identity, then you'd also be arguing that Americans don't really have a national identity (although I certainly don't dispute that the American myths are shoved done every American's throats to try to force some national identity.)