🇦🇺 Australian Indigenous Voice to Parliament Referendum (October 14th)

[AustralianSwingVoter]

So, a serious question. How is the issue playing amongst non-Aboriginal minorities? Because they're a pretty sizeable share of the population in some states now, and the history doesn't mean as much to them.

Polls show they support it, and I think the younger nature of immigrant vote will mean they lean more in favour. But considering the referendum is failing 65-35, they probably still vote against in but by less, than white Australians.

From personal experience, there are people who support 'yes' and people who are completely apathetic/think it's useless in a COL crisis and those people would probably not vote/don't want to vote, but because the referendum is mandatory, they'll probably turn up to vote no.

Personally I’m a touch sceptical of any polling crosstabs, but especially those for immigrants where they’re very new and haven’t settled down like age crosstabs have. But ultimately we’ll know how immigrant communities actually vote from Western Sydney/the usual Outer Melbourne electorates.

[JimJamUK]

Personally I’m a touch sceptical of any polling crosstabs, but especially those for immigrants where they’re very new and haven’t settled down like age crosstabs have. But ultimately we’ll know how immigrant communities actually vote from Western Sydney/the usual Outer Melbourne electorates.

I suspect part of the story will be how many do not vote at all despite compulsory voting.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Senator Jacinta Price was in Perth overnight talking to bolster the NO campaign.

The event hosted over 1,000 people at the Perth Exhibition and Convention Centre. I have seen Eddie Izzard and Sir Geoffrey Robertson KC at the same venue, and it is deluxe.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-03/voice-referendum-no-campaigners-issue-warning-at-perth-event/102924758


Jacinta Nampijinpa Price was given a warm reception by the 1,000-strong crowd. (ABC News: James Carmody)

Outside the venue a small group of protesters gathered, mostly students from the Socialist Alternative.

Noongar Minang man and Aboriginal activist Mervyn Eades spoke at the protest and declared Senator Nampijinpa Price was not welcome on Noongar land, before going on to condemn comments she made at the National Press Club last month.


Protestor Mervyn Eades made his voice heard outside the No campaign event. (ABC News: James Carmody)

Experienced in the subject of Aboriginal imprisonment in WA, Mervyn Eades most famous quote “There’s stuff that our people experience on a day-to-day basis that is the total opposite to what everyone pretends they are doing and being for our people.”

That statement is true.

Mervyn has also commented in the past during Perth events that white people feeling good is not a cause for Aboriginal people, often using the term "white tokenism".

[Shaula🏳️‍⚧️]

From conversations I've overheard, most young people don't really care about the referendum or know much about it, in fact most have said they're sick of hearing about it lol.

[Meclazine for Israel]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-03/speed-signs-defaced-as-voice-referendum-early-polling-starts/102929088


Signs along the Flinders Highway were found vandalised on Tuesday afternoon.(ABC Eyre Peninsula: Emma Pedler)

District Council of Lower Eyre Peninsula Mayor Jo-Ann Quigley described the vandalism as "really disappointing".

"It's quite a huge safety concern when these sorts of things happen," she told the ABC.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Legal brain and Sydney Barrister Louise Clegg discussed the Voice on ABC radio:

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/radionational-breakfast/louis-clegg-identity-politics-voice-to-parliament-referendum/102930778

Louise is concerned about the divisive nature of the proposal and says it will entrench the current feeling of divisiveness into the Constitution permanently.

[Pericles]

'Fair call' for Albo to say First Nations men more likely to go to prison than university

It doesn't look like this referendum will change anything and mean these problems are taken more seriously, but obviously there is a real issue here.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

'Fair call' for Albo to say First Nations men more likely to go to prison than university

It doesn't look like this referendum will change anything and mean these problems are taken more seriously, but obviously there is a real issue here.

Very funny that this statistic is used as evidence of oppression (unless the claim is that Australian police are going around arresting, and the courts convicting, large numbers of innocent people).

[Meclazine for Israel]

'Fair call' for Albo to say First Nations men more likely to go to prison than university

It doesn't look like this referendum will change anything and mean these problems are taken more seriously, but obviously there is a real issue here.

Very funny that this statistic is used as evidence of oppression (unless the claim is that Australian police are going around arresting, and the courts convicting, large numbers of innocent people).

It was discovered in 2023 that Western Australian Police Dogs were 12 times more likely to bite an Aboriginal teenager between midnight and 6am than a white teenager.

The conclusion, "Police Dogs Were Racist".

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/unleashing-police-dogs-onto-children-is-racist-ccc-boss-tells-wa-committee-20230315-p5csbn.html

We have to screen our German Shepherds now for Nazi party membership.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

'Fair call' for Albo to say First Nations men more likely to go to prison than university

It doesn't look like this referendum will change anything and mean these problems are taken more seriously, but obviously there is a real issue here.

Very funny that this statistic is used as evidence of oppression (unless the claim is that Australian police are going around arresting, and the courts convicting, large numbers of innocent people).

It was discovered in 2023 that Western Australian Police Dogs were 12 times more likely to bite an Aboriginal teenager between midnight and 6am than a white teenager.

The conclusion, "Police Dogs Were Racist".

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/unleashing-police-dogs-onto-children-is-racist-ccc-boss-tells-wa-committee-20230315-p5csbn.html

We have to screen our German Shepherds now for Nazi party membership.

“not racist in intent, but are [nonetheless] racist“
To be clear here:
This isn’t from some woke lefty NGO, it’s the extremely well respected Chair of the Corruption and Crime Commission. Former DPP and state Supreme Court Justice.
The actual point of his report is police dog handlers may hold racial biases, the current use of police dogs is disproportionately against aboriginal suspects, and why the fck are police siccing dogs on children.

[Meclazine for Israel]

That simply demonstrates a fertile imagination and lack of experience with this matter in direct contrast with the reality for Police on the ground in Perth with a search for an offender.

Think about it. You are looking for an offender in the dark in bushes behind some houses which are reporting a burglar. Police do not evaluate the 'age' or 'race' of offenders before they let the dogs go.

This radio program discussed the issue of racist Police dogs.

https://www.6pr.com.au/use-of-police-dogs-on-young-indigenous-people-labelled-racist/

2% of people in Perth are Aboriginal, and this case shows 61% of night prowlers in Perth are Aboriginal.

So Aboriginals are 30 times more likely to be stealing from your backyard and burglarising cars and property after midnight.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Think about it. You are looking for an offender in the bushes behind some houses. Police do not evaluate the 'age' or 'race' of offenders before they let the dogs go.

The entire point of the CC’s report is police are using dogs too much in situations where they are unnecessary or counterproductive. This problem is specific to the WA police force.

The reports main recommendation wasn’t to stop dogs being racist, it was that the WA police needs to establish clearer and tighter policies and procedures for their use. Because let’s be crystal clear here, police dogs should basically never be deployed on juveniles unless they are known to be armed or dangerous. That is the position of best practice, the WA government and WA police and the CCC investigation was triggered by concerns current policies failed to sufficiently heed this.

Think about it. You are looking for an offender in the dark in bushes behind some houses which are reporting a burglar. Police do not evaluate the 'age' or 'race' of offenders before they let the dogs go.

Factors that shape what is considered ‘reasonable force’ includes considerations of a suspect’s age, gender, size, fitness, and skill level compared to that of the officers present. Per the CCC and WA Police, the use of canines is considered a level of force between tasers and firearms.

[Pericles]

'Fair call' for Albo to say First Nations men more likely to go to prison than university

It doesn't look like this referendum will change anything and mean these problems are taken more seriously, but obviously there is a real issue here.

Very funny that this statistic is used as evidence of oppression (unless the claim is that Australian police are going around arresting, and the courts convicting, large numbers of innocent people).

So you think that Aborigines are just 30 times more likely to be criminals? These issues appear across the world and have been well-studied. Racism, racial bias, and historic disadvantage do affect people throughout their lives.

Personal responsibility is important at the individual level but yes, people are influenced by their circumstances. It is also wrong to try and make societal issues the fault just of the individuals involved.

[Agafin]

Extending upon the previous point, I think mandatory voting doomed this to fail because everyone who is apathetic on the referendum who would otherwise not vote, is voting no.

Huh, so even referendums have mandatory voting in Australia? Are there any optional elections? Like, are local elections or stuff like city council elections (if they exist) compulsory?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Extending upon the previous point, I think mandatory voting doomed this to fail because everyone who is apathetic on the referendum who would otherwise not vote, is voting no.

Huh, so even referendums have mandatory voting in Australia? Are there any optional elections? Like, are local elections or stuff like city council elections (if they exist) compulsory?

Voting in local city council/rural shire elections is compulsory in NSW, Queensland, Victoria and Tasmania. It is still optional in South Australia and Western Australia. Turnout in compulsory council elections is usually 80-85%, while it’s about 90% in state and federal elections.

The voting system differs a lot but most of our local councils are also elected with compulsory preferencing single transferring vote, at most extreme electing 15 councillors in a district! So counting takes a while

[SnowLabrador]

Even the most ardent supporters of Yes aren't arguing that systemic racism will vanish overnight if it passes. Based on what I've read about the standard of living for Aboriginal Australians as compared to white Australians in this thread, this is the bare minimum. I hope it passes, but polling apparently suggests that it is unlikely to pass.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

'Fair call' for Albo to say First Nations men more likely to go to prison than university

It doesn't look like this referendum will change anything and mean these problems are taken more seriously, but obviously there is a real issue here.

Very funny that this statistic is used as evidence of oppression (unless the claim is that Australian police are going around arresting, and the courts convicting, large numbers of innocent people).

So you think that Aborigines are just 30 times more likely to be criminals? These issues appear across the world and have been well-studied. Racism, racial bias, and historic disadvantage do affect people throughout their lives.

Personal responsibility is important at the individual level but yes, people are influenced by their circumstances. It is also wrong to try and make societal issues the fault just of the individuals involved.

1. I mean, they are, unless you argue the innocent people line above. The question is why.

2. Why have the "Racism, racial bias, and historic disadvantage" perpetrated by the Australian government in 2023 driven Aboriginal Australians to such a high rate of crime, but the overt discrimination practiced by the government of, say, Malaysia against Chinese Malaysians has not?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, are you aware of the history here or not? It sounds like the answer is 'or not'. Whether 'the Voice' (if it were to pass and this now looks unlikely) would be even mildly effective in dealing with these deep-rooted problems is debatable, but the existence of those problems is not.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Well, are you aware of the history here or not? It sounds like the answer is 'or not'. Whether 'the Voice' (if it were to pass and this now looks unlikely) would be even mildly effective in dealing with these deep-rooted problems is debatable, but the existence of those problems is not.

I am aware of the history of Australian settler-colonization, sure. What do you think I don't know that would change my mind here?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I am aware of the history of Australian settler-colonization, sure. What do you think I don't know that would change my mind here?

Well, for one thing you appear to be completely ignorant of the reasons for the extreme social marginalization of the Aboriginal population, a social marginalization so severe that we can reasonably term it a social catastrophe. No thinking person in Australia (no matter their politics) seriously doubts this, even if they violently disagree over what should be done about it. Whereas your posts do not appear to be about Australia at all.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

I am aware of the history of Australian settler-colonization, sure. What do you think I don't know that would change my mind here?

Well, for one thing you appear to be completely ignorant of the reasons for the extreme social marginalization of the Aboriginal population, a social marginalization so severe that we can reasonably term it a social catastrophe. No thinking person in Australia (no matter their politics) seriously doubts this, even if they violently disagree over what should be done about it. Whereas your posts do not appear to be about Australia at all.

I am aware of the history of segregation and discrimination against the Aboriginal community, but why should that be attributed as the cause of the poverty we see today when

A. Much of that "social marginalization" would have occurred regardless of discriminatory legislation because of the historic (and ongoing) preference of Aboriginal individuals to live in traditional environments over integrating into Australian society

B. It has been several decades since the last discriminatory legislation was repealed, and this gap continues essentially unabated

C. Poverty and social marginalization alone cannot explain differential rates of crime because other historically impoverished and "socially marginalized" groups do not and have not committed crime at comparable rates.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I am aware of the history of segregation and discrimination against the Aboriginal community, but why should that be attributed as the cause of the poverty we see today when

We start with an immediate problem here: the history is considerably worse than mere 'segregation and discrimination'. I note also the mention of 'poverty' - I did not actually use this word. It is a problem, but is downstream of the other problems.

A. Much of that "social marginalization" would have occurred regardless of discriminatory legislation because of the historic (and ongoing) preference of Aboriginal individuals to live in traditional environments over integrating into Australian society

Better proof would be hard to find that you have no idea what you are talking about. Only about a fifth of Aboriginals live in what are official defined as 'remote communities' and a significant proportion of these are not traditional in the slightest: many were established in the 70s and 80s as part of the Outstation Movement, which was a small 'c' conservative reaction against the social problems caused (as the leaders of the movement believed) by the largely involuntary assimilation of Aboriginals into wider society. The movement has actually been relatively successful on is own terms (health and other social outcomes are generally better than for the rest of the Aboriginal population) but has been, and remains, politically contentious as these settlements are uneconomic and the level of state support needed to keep them afloat is considerable. About half of the Aboriginal live in small towns and other bush settlements (where they form the local underclass and have done for a long time) and subsist on a mixture of casual labour and benefits, about a third now live in major metropolitan regions. Again, you seem to be thinking of a different country to Australia.

B. It has been several decades since the last discriminatory legislation was repealed, and this gap continues essentially unabated

You appear to be under the impression that the problem was a result of legislative discrimination, rather than the fact that their societies were smashed to a pulp and that they were treated worse than beasts (for an animal has economic value) for a very long period of time, and that they then became a semi-transient rural underclass, with all of the Bad News that comes with that.

C. Poverty and social marginalization alone cannot explain differential rates of crime because other historically impoverished and "socially marginalized" groups do not and have not committed crime at comparable rates.

Actually it is very common for sections of society that form a perpetual underclass to develop an outsized problem with deviant behaviour, especially when the group in question has a complex relationship with the state and mainstream society and especially when the group in question has been socially stigmatized for a lengthy period of time. Personally I'm a little sceptical that The Voice would really solve this and I think that a campaign based around the guilty consciences of mainstream Australian society was not a very good idea, but that's really not the point.

[GoTfan]

To be clear, segregation was an issue, but not nearly the only one. I mean, we literally took chidren from their mothers to "Breed them white."

[AustralianSwingVoter]

[Libertas Vel Mors]

I am aware of the history of segregation and discrimination against the Aboriginal community, but why should that be attributed as the cause of the poverty we see today when

We start with an immediate problem here: the history is considerably worse than mere 'segregation and discrimination'. I note also the mention of 'poverty' - I did not actually use this word. It is a problem, but is downstream of the other problems.

A. Much of that "social marginalization" would have occurred regardless of discriminatory legislation because of the historic (and ongoing) preference of Aboriginal individuals to live in traditional environments over integrating into Australian society

Better proof would be hard to find that you have no idea what you are talking about. Only about a fifth of Aboriginals live in what are official defined as 'remote communities' and a significant proportion of these are not traditional in the slightest: many were established in the 70s and 80s as part of the Outstation Movement, which was a small 'c' conservative reaction against the social problems caused (as the leaders of the movement believed) by the largely involuntary assimilation of Aboriginals into wider society. The movement has actually been relatively successful on is own terms (health and other social outcomes are generally better than for the rest of the Aboriginal population) but has been, and remains, politically contentious as these settlements are uneconomic and the level of state support needed to keep them afloat is considerable. About half of the Aboriginal live in small towns and other bush settlements (where they form the local underclass and have done for a long time) and subsist on a mixture of casual labour and benefits, about a third now live in major metropolitan regions. Again, you seem to be thinking of a different country to Australia.

B. It has been several decades since the last discriminatory legislation was repealed, and this gap continues essentially unabated

You appear to be under the impression that the problem was a result of legislative discrimination, rather than the fact that their societies were smashed to a pulp and that they were treated worse than beasts (for an animal has economic value) for a very long period of time, and that they then became a semi-transient rural underclass, with all of the Bad News that comes with that.

C. Poverty and social marginalization alone cannot explain differential rates of crime because other historically impoverished and "socially marginalized" groups do not and have not committed crime at comparable rates.

Actually it is very common for sections of society that form a perpetual underclass to develop an outsized problem with deviant behaviour, especially when the group in question has a complex relationship with the state and mainstream society and especially when the group in question has been socially stigmatized for a lengthy period of time. Personally I'm a little sceptical that The Voice would really solve this and I think that a campaign based around the guilty consciences of mainstream Australian society was not a very good idea, but that's really not the point.

I initially considered not replying to this because I think you have a bad habit of assuming everything not explicitly stated to be the product of ignorance, perhaps specifically American ignorance, and it is tiresome to debate someone so dedicated to implying his opponents are stupid or uninformed. I have decided to do so anyway, but let me first make the following things clear:

1. Yes, to GoTfan, I am aware that residential schools existed in Australia, and that the same stupid myth of the "lost generations" exists in your country just as it does in Canada.

2. Yes, to Filuwaúrdjan, I am aware that there is more to Australian-Aboriginal history than segregation and discrimination. I did not bother to list the alleged Tasmania genocide, or to go into detail on the Evans Head massacere, because I do not believe it my role as the defending party in this debate to list and respond to every allegation of horror or violent incident in the history of Australia. That does not mean I am ignorant of these things.

3. Yes, again to Filuwaúrdjan, I am aware that most Aboriginal Australians do not live in rural communities, or even in the Northern Territory or other stereotypically "aboriginal" places. At the same time, however, you overstate the degree of this integration, especially for a very urban country such as Australia. Just 33% of Aboriginal Australians live in major cities. Given that 72% of Australians as a whole do, that is highly disproportionate. I think my usage of the word traditional, even if you object to some specific implication of it, accurately reflects the fact that Aboriginal Australians are disproportionately likely to live outside of urban centers, and particularly likely to live in the least dense places within Australia (ie again returning to census classifications, 18% living in very remote areas versus just 2% of Australians writ large). Given that this % has actually been falling over time, I think I am on pretty good ground in saying that even ignoring all else, location and lifestyle alone would mean that a population would likely be lower-income than the Australian population as a whole.

4. I am not (again, your snobbery is tiring) under the impression that the whole of the problem was the result of legislative discrimination, but I am under the correct impression that discriminatory legislation, such as the Perth Prohibited Area Act, did discriminate against Aboriginal Australians, and I think it reasonable to note the modern absence of such legislation.

Now, onto your actual points (there are not many once we get past your multi-paragraph wank session).

Actually, it is not particularly common for that to be the case. I am unaware of any particular historic Jewish proclivity to crime, or Flemish, or Basque, or Catalonian, or Chinese Malaysian, to name just a few groups that have been historically discriminated against. Underclass is a distinct word with different connotations than "oppressed," to be sure, but I think that if Jews in Medieval Europe (how many centuries of discrimination?) don't qualify then few groups do.

To be sure, it is common among a very specific set of groups -- descendants of African slaves and certain Indigenous peoples in Western nations. But while that is notable, it is not a universal pattern.

And of course, this ignores that even inclusion in an "underclass" category is reflective of much more than persecution. Many groups that are not considered "underclass" might be if not for success caused by other factors. Similarly, many groups considered to comprise the "perpetual underclass" are only considered so because of things that have nothing to do with persecution. The fact that Aboriginal Australians comprise a "perpetual underclass" and have high rates of criminal behavior may not have the causal relationship you assume even if a causal relationship exists  -- it may be that Aboriginal comprise a "perpetual underclass" because of their high rates of crime, and other similar cultural factors.