West Virginia is poised to cut its only Math PhD Program

[Pres Mike]

This is probably happening due to under-enrollment.

Because if there is one thing West Virginia definitely needs, it's more young people leaving the state to pursue education elsewhere.

This isn't an undergraduate degree program, it's a PhD program. PhD programs don't disproportionately pull in students from in state the same way that undergrad programs do.

I hope I don't sound ignorant, but why does someone need a PhD in Math? What would they learn that they didn't already know from a masters program? Sounds like spending 100k in debt for something with little practical job applications.

No, I am not saying we don't need math in the modern economy. But what job explicity requries a math PhD outside of academia?

Nobody is going into six digits of debt for a math PhD program. These programs pay students.

It's sad, but it's not a tragedy and will have a negligible impact on the state economy.

I think the loss of 18 faculty members along with all the masters and PhD students from the math department will undoubtedly make the quality of instruction in fields like Electrical Engineering, Finance, Civil Engineering, Computer Science, Biostatistics, etc. significantly worse (fewer teaching assistants, research opportunities, mentoring). And these cuts serve as a strong indicator for future students that these fields, particularly with respect to graduate programs, are not 100% safe.

I don't think this is how this will play out. The programs you are describing will (or at least should) have their own specialists in related sub-disciplines. Also, the program that's being eliminated is mostly pure (not applied) and that typically has a lot less crossover with applied STEM fields.

I know most grad students work as assistants. But I also know that most people with extremely large debt got graduate degrees or started them

I graduated debt free undergrad but when I looked at masters programs, they were like 20k. I only looked at cheap schools.

That said, now online masters can be done as cheaply as 5k now.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

I agree that what you are describing is a pedagogical ideal but it's not strictly necessary for producing qualified graduates in the related fields. I'd rather have a math department than not have one, but (again) I'd imagine this cut was due to a lack of supply of interested and qualified student applicants relative to the cost it takes to maintain the program.

I did a STEM graduate degree at a university with separate departments for math and applied math. The applied math department was involved in nearly all of the collaborations.

I know most grad students work as assistants. But I also know that most people with extremely large debt got graduate degrees or started them

I graduated debt free undergrad but when I looked at masters programs, they were like 20k. I only looked at cheap schools.

That said, now online masters can be done as cheaply as 5k now.

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

[Pres Mike]

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

I agree that what you are describing is a pedagogical ideal but it's not strictly necessary for producing qualified graduates in the related fields. I'd rather have a math department than not have one, but (again) I'd imagine this cut was due to a lack of supply of interested and qualified student applicants relative to the cost it takes to maintain the program.

I did a STEM graduate degree at a university with separate departments for math and applied math. The applied math department was involved in nearly all of the collaborations.

I know most grad students work as assistants. But I also know that most people with extremely large debt got graduate degrees or started them

I graduated debt free undergrad but when I looked at masters programs, they were like 20k. I only looked at cheap schools.

That said, now online masters can be done as cheaply as 5k now.

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

Maybe for STEM

https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt#:~:text=The%20average%20graduate%20school%20debt,belongs%20to%20graduate%20student%20borrowers.

46% of all federal student loans are for graduate programs despite only 20% of undergrads going into grad school

The average student loan debt for PhD is 100k

Fro those with graduate degrees, only 14% of their student loan debt came from undergrad on average

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

I agree that what you are describing is a pedagogical ideal but it's not strictly necessary for producing qualified graduates in the related fields. I'd rather have a math department than not have one, but (again) I'd imagine this cut was due to a lack of supply of interested and qualified student applicants relative to the cost it takes to maintain the program.

I did a STEM graduate degree at a university with separate departments for math and applied math. The applied math department was involved in nearly all of the collaborations.

I know most grad students work as assistants. But I also know that most people with extremely large debt got graduate degrees or started them

I graduated debt free undergrad but when I looked at masters programs, they were like 20k. I only looked at cheap schools.

That said, now online masters can be done as cheaply as 5k now.

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

Maybe for STEM

Yes! That is exactly what I said in both of my posts, and this is a thread about a STEM field. What are you even arguing about?

[Pres Mike]

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

I agree that what you are describing is a pedagogical ideal but it's not strictly necessary for producing qualified graduates in the related fields. I'd rather have a math department than not have one, but (again) I'd imagine this cut was due to a lack of supply of interested and qualified student applicants relative to the cost it takes to maintain the program.

I did a STEM graduate degree at a university with separate departments for math and applied math. The applied math department was involved in nearly all of the collaborations.

I know most grad students work as assistants. But I also know that most people with extremely large debt got graduate degrees or started them

I graduated debt free undergrad but when I looked at masters programs, they were like 20k. I only looked at cheap schools.

That said, now online masters can be done as cheaply as 5k now.

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

Maybe for STEM

Yes! That is exactly what I said in both of my posts, and this is a thread about a STEM field. What are you even arguing about?

My bad. I know when it comes to graduate programs like social work or liberal arts, they are paid out of pocket with student loans only to make 40k after college.

When you hear horror stories about six figure student loan debt, its usally folks who started or finished graduate programs

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

I agree that what you are describing is a pedagogical ideal but it's not strictly necessary for producing qualified graduates in the related fields. I'd rather have a math department than not have one, but (again) I'd imagine this cut was due to a lack of supply of interested and qualified student applicants relative to the cost it takes to maintain the program.

I did a STEM graduate degree at a university with separate departments for math and applied math. The applied math department was involved in nearly all of the collaborations.

I know most grad students work as assistants. But I also know that most people with extremely large debt got graduate degrees or started them

I graduated debt free undergrad but when I looked at masters programs, they were like 20k. I only looked at cheap schools.

That said, now online masters can be done as cheaply as 5k now.

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

Maybe for STEM

https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt#:~:text=The%20average%20graduate%20school%20debt,belongs%20to%20graduate%20student%20borrowers.

46% of all federal student loans are for graduate programs despite only 20% of undergrads going into grad school

The average student loan debt for PhD is 100k

Fro those with graduate degrees, only 14% of their student loan debt came from undergrad on average

That's mostly driven by law and med school.

[Santander]

That's mostly driven by law and med school.

The $100k cited is for research doctorates. Of course, as stated numerous times, virtually all STEM PhDs are fully-funded and actually, even worthwhile PhDs outside STEM are fully-funded. The loan numbers are bloated because students may have loans from studies before their PhDs, some students run out of funding, and some students pursue questionable PhDs in fields like psychology that take a long time and are often not fully-funded.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

Generally they are selective about who they give support to. But some are less selective about who they let in without support. Some people might have an outside scholarship. Obviously most people attend only if they have support.

[Хahar 🤔]

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

As a mathematics major, I found the differential equations requirement for my degree vexatious because the class was difficult and boring and only of relevance to engineers. It wasn't a prerequisite for any other class I took, so I ended up pushing it until the summer after graduation, and I finished with a C- that would have been a D+ if I hadn't e-mailed the instructor telling him that I had already gotten into graduate school and just needed this class to graduate.

There's not really any point to this story in relation to what you posted except that I really hated differential equations.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Okay. I am telling you, from experience, that at an R1 university a PhD program in a STEM field is almost guaranteed to fund its students. If you are taking out loans for debt, it's not for tuition; it's probably for some other life circumstance like buying a house on a meager stipend.

Generally they are selective about who they give support to. But some are less selective about who they let in without support. Some people might have an outside scholarship. Obviously most people attend only if they have support.

I know a lot of current students or recent grads in a number of fields across a number of American universities. Nobody is taking out loans to cover tuition. If there is a funding shortage, they are more likely to drop out or take a different degree than take out loans. That is not to say this is any better - I've seen some really reprehensible and disgusting malfeasance on the part of supervisors or departments about funding. You can argue people are losing out on future earnings by spending this period working very low pay, but nobody is taking out actual debt.

I think the value of having a few pure mathematicians potentially be involved in core courses like ODEs/PDEs (and the extensions to fluid dynamics, etc.) for engineering or algorithms/complexity theory for CS is quite high. While there is a pool of MechE, EE, and CS grad students qualified enough to allow decent instruction, I unironically think it's always good to have a few theory arseholes in the room (particularly for higher level classes) just so that students with more abstract questions aren't left without answers. And outside of classes, the benefits of research collaboration are high here; I wouldn't agree at all with the low level of crossover between pure math and applied STEM.

As a mathematics major, I found the differential equations requirement for my degree vexatious because the class was difficult and boring and only of relevance to engineers. It wasn't a prerequisite for any other class I took, so I ended up pushing it until the summer after graduation, and I finished with a C- that would have been a D+ if I hadn't e-mailed the instructor telling him that I had already gotten into graduate school and just needed this class to graduate.

There's not really any point to this story in relation to what you posted except that I really hated differential equations.

Come to think of it, I took two ODE classes and a PDE class when I was in college. The one taught by the "pure" mathematician was quite bad (maybe I should give him a pass... he was dying of cancer) and the one that used Steven Strogatz's book (which is quite obviously applied) was more fun and useful to me. So my personal experience is that, on average, there wasn't much advantage to having pure mathematicians as instructors compared to ones with more applied research interests. Many others (or at least many other Americans) may share this experience.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Not the end of the World.

PhD's in Maths are only good for programming traffic lights.

I wish I knew one who could help with getting a series of green lights on the West Coast Hwy.

[Epaminondas]

Do any states less populated than WV still have Maths PhD programmes? Wyoming?

I wish I knew one who could help with getting a series of green lights on the West Coast Hwy.

Traffic light engineers are generally asked to develop software that avoids green waves to improve road safety.

[Dr. Arch]

They're also closing down their entire Modern Languages & Linguistics Department and firing all faculty and staff. A state flagship university without a full graduate program in math and no languages department, sounds like a wonderful and well-rounded education befitting the politics and reputation of WV.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

They're also closing down their entire Modern Languages & Linguistics Department and firing all faculty and staff. A state flagship university without a full graduate program in math and no languages department, sounds like a wonderful and well-rounded education befitting the politics and reputation of WV.

And that department was profitable for the university! Pure ideology

[LostFellow]

Do any states less populated than WV still have Maths PhD programmes? Wyoming?

All of them except Maine have PhD programs, generally just in the largest state flagship with an annual new student cohort of about 3-10+ students per year. Nothing huge in terms of numbers, but having the opportunity available still is a strong signal to me of STEM competitiveness.

[jojoju1998]

They're also closing down their entire Modern Languages & Linguistics Department and firing all faculty and staff. A state flagship university without a full graduate program in math and no languages department, sounds like a wonderful and well-rounded education befitting the politics and reputation of WV.

And that department was profitable for the university! Pure ideology

They're also closing down their entire Modern Languages & Linguistics Department and firing all faculty and staff. A state flagship university without a full graduate program in math and no languages department, sounds like a wonderful and well-rounded education befitting the politics and reputation of WV.

They also already eliminated the masters degrees for elementary, secondary, and special education last year.

[jojoju1998]

And this is why folks, America imports STEM students from overseas.


So any Republican here who asks why we have so many " foreign " workers. Well here we go. The anti intellectualism. The denigration of not just the humanities now, but well even math !

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Here is an article about some of the cuts. Worth a read. I wish there was more information about the causes of the budget shortfalls.

[jojoju1998]

Here is an article about some of the cuts. Worth a read. I wish there was more information about the causes of the budget shortfalls.

They're basically cutting every program. It's not just the humanities. But it looks like even Civil Engineering will be getting cuts.

[jojoju1998]

Interesingly enough, they're not cutting the business majors.

[Badger]

They're also closing down their entire Modern Languages & Linguistics Department and firing all faculty and staff. A state flagship university without a full graduate program in math and no languages department, sounds like a wonderful and well-rounded education befitting the politics and reputation of WV.

And that department was profitable for the university! Pure ideology

They're also closing down their entire Modern Languages & Linguistics Department and firing all faculty and staff. A state flagship university without a full graduate program in math and no languages department, sounds like a wonderful and well-rounded education befitting the politics and reputation of WV.

They also already eliminated the masters degrees for elementary, secondary, and special education last year.

When stereotype meets reality

[Pres Mike]

Here is an article about some of the cuts. Worth a read. I wish there was more information about the causes of the budget shortfalls.

They're basically cutting every program. It's not just the humanities. But it looks like even Civil Engineering will be getting cuts.

Universities across the country are seeing lower enrollment. 18 years ago was 2005. Soon enrollment will drop a lot since the 2007-2008 recession made people not get married and have babies.

[Pres Mike]

Do any states less populated than WV still have Maths PhD programmes? Wyoming?

I wish I knew one who could help with getting a series of green lights on the West Coast Hwy.

Traffic light engineers are generally asked to develop software that avoids green waves to improve road safety.

Every state but Maine