Would you support the following HYPOTHETICAL peace treaty for the Russian-Ukrainian War?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Even if Russia got annihilated on the battlefield and offered an unconditional surrender I don't think we would get a deal like this.

[AAPSO]

There are a lot of things I'd dislike about this, but linking Transnistria and Abkhazia/South Ossetia to Ukraine is the most ridiculous part.

[BigSerg]

    It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yes, these idiots have no idea that Russia has more nukes than all of NATO combined. The moment NATO intervenes in Ukraine, there will be no conventional war, many of these nafos would disappear from the world in the first 10 minutes of war. Honestly reading their bullsh**t, it's what I wish for, I'm ashamed that there are so many illiterate among Americans.

[TheReckoning]

    It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yes, these idiots have no idea that Russia has more nukes than all of NATO combined. The moment NATO intervenes in Ukraine, there will be no conventional war, many of these nafos would disappear from the world in the first 10 minutes of war. Honestly reading their bullsh**t, it's what I wish for, I'm ashamed that there are so many illiterate among Americans.

Would you say you still overall support Russia in this war?

[BigSerg]

    It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yes, these idiots have no idea that Russia has more nukes than all of NATO combined. The moment NATO intervenes in Ukraine, there will be no conventional war, many of these nafos would disappear from the world in the first 10 minutes of war. Honestly reading their bullsh**t, it's what I wish for, I'm ashamed that there are so many illiterate among Americans.

Would you say you still overall support Russia in this war?

It is obvious. Ukraine has no chance and most analysts seem to be coming to their senses and agreeing with this. Ukraine does not have the ability to push Russia off if it has not even been able to get to the front line of defense with a demobilized Russia.

[OSR stands with Israel]

     It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yeah people don’t get that due to Russian nukes , they do have more leverage then they otherwise do . While that sucks , it is something we cannot change and thus have to deal with the issue as exists rather than what ideally should happen

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

     It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yeah people don’t get that due to Russian nukes , they do have more leverage then they otherwise do . While that sucks , it is something we cannot change and thus have to deal with the issue as exists rather than what ideally should happen

Yeah, there needs to be a real compromise. Like Ukraine recognizes Crimea as part of Russia, the rest of Ukraine is returned, all Ukrainian parties are unbanned, Russian is added as an official language. Ukraine can join NATO and EU but not have US troops or weapons in Ukraine.

[Lord Halifax]

It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

the only way the Russia Federation is dismembered is due to internal collapse, which is not something they can prevent by using nukes, and while unlikely it's not an impossible scenario.

[dead0man]

Disagree with all this "vengeance on Russia" stuff.

If they are eventually badly defeated in this war (and that is far from a given, it has to be said) they should be given the chance to join the civilised family of nations just as the Germans and Japanese were after WW2. Nations, just as with individuals, need carrots as well as sticks.

seems like we tried this once with Russia already and it didn't take.  I'm sure different people will have different opinions as to why that is, but my theory is that they were never properly beaten in a war.  Unlike Germany and Japan.

Under drunk Yeltsin, Russians had shrinking economy, high inflation, and shortened lifespans.

under sober Putin, Russians have a shrinking economy, high inflation and shortened lifespans.  And a much weaker military than Yelstin.

[TheReckoning]

    It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yes, these idiots have no idea that Russia has more nukes than all of NATO combined. The moment NATO intervenes in Ukraine, there will be no conventional war, many of these nafos would disappear from the world in the first 10 minutes of war. Honestly reading their bullsh**t, it's what I wish for, I'm ashamed that there are so many illiterate among Americans.

Would you say you still overall support Russia in this war?

It is obvious. Ukraine has no chance and most analysts seem to be coming to their senses and agreeing with this. Ukraine does not have the ability to push Russia off if it has not even been able to get to the front line of defense with a demobilized Russia.

I understand your analysis, but are you happy about this? Do you think Ukraine deserves defeat?

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

Under drunk Yeltsin, Russians had shrinking economy, high inflation, and shortened lifespans.

The person who talks these Putin templates about a person who suffered a bunch of heart attacks, and about an economy that was trying to recover after dozens of years of government imprisoning and shooting any private entrepreneurs, clearly indicates who he is.

[CumbrianLefty]

Disagree with all this "vengeance on Russia" stuff.

If they are eventually badly defeated in this war (and that is far from a given, it has to be said) they should be given the chance to join the civilised family of nations just as the Germans and Japanese were after WW2. Nations, just as with individuals, need carrots as well as sticks.

seems like we tried this once with Russia already and it didn't take.  I'm sure different people will have different opinions as to why that is, but my theory is that they were never properly beaten in a war.  Unlike Germany and Japan.

We tried, but maybe not as hard as we could have done.

There was rather a lot of unjustified and hubristic triumphalism after the collapse of the USSR.

[dead0man]

Disagree with all this "vengeance on Russia" stuff.

If they are eventually badly defeated in this war (and that is far from a given, it has to be said) they should be given the chance to join the civilised family of nations just as the Germans and Japanese were after WW2. Nations, just as with individuals, need carrots as well as sticks.

seems like we tried this once with Russia already and it didn't take.  I'm sure different people will have different opinions as to why that is, but my theory is that they were never properly beaten in a war.  Unlike Germany and Japan.

We tried, but maybe not as hard as we could have done.

There was rather a lot of unjustified and hubristic triumphalism after the collapse of the USSR.

well, we won.  Were we supposed to somber?  "we're sorry your authoritarian political philosophy failed, here's a lolly for your trouble."

[CumbrianLefty]

There is such a thing as magnanimity in victory, and that would have been a good time for it.

[Hindsight was 2020]

There is such a thing as magnanimity in victory, and that would have been a good time for it.

The West did a ton for Russia post USSR collapse, we made Ukraine give up its nukes back to them for security guarantees that we now know weren’t worth the paper it was printed on, did little when Russia messed with Moldova with the Transnistria scam, didn’t recognize the Chechen revolts, along with giving them billions to stimulate the economy, and heck even made offers to let them join NATO

[PSOL]

     It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

Yeah people don’t get that due to Russian nukes , they do have more leverage then they otherwise do . While that sucks , it is something we cannot change and thus have to deal with the issue as exists rather than what ideally should happen

Yeah, there needs to be a real compromise. Like Ukraine recognizes Crimea as part of Russia, the rest of Ukraine is returned, all Ukrainian parties are unbanned, Russian is added as an official language. Ukraine can join NATO and EU but not have US troops or weapons in Ukraine.

All of this is fine except the Crimean situation, which is rightfully Ukrainian and should not be settled officially.

The NATOsphere did nothing for Russia except help rob the place blind.

[Cassius]

The whole point of the collapse of the Soviet Union is that it marked the end of Marxism-Leninism as a viable governing ideology, and thus (from one perspective) represented the liberation of the Russians as well from the shackles of that ideology and the entity it was the guiding spirit for, not the defeat of Russia as a state and the Russians as a people. Heck, the final death blow to  the Soviet Union was delivered by the Russian Federation itself when it seceded (in conjunction with Ukraine and Belarus, the Central Asian countries didn’t really get a look in on the process) from the Union.

Russia =\= the Soviet Union.

[Associate Justice PiT]

It amuses me when people discuss dismembering Russia, forgetting that Russia has the power to turn us all into shadows on the wall and wouldn't hesitate to do so in order to forgo that outcome. While there are some unrealistic elements of the peace plan broached in the topic post and others in this thread have done a fine job of pointing them out, I do appreciate that it recognizes the need to give Russia an off-ramp that would discourage taking a nuclear option. I voted "yes" on the poll.

the only way the Russia Federation is dismembered is due to internal collapse, which is not something they can prevent by using nukes, and while unlikely it's not an impossible scenario.

     The most likely forms of internal collapse (e.g. military coup, assassination) would realistically rule out such a scenario, since there would still be people at the switch who are extremely committed to not letting Russia fall to an enemy that openly wants to destroy it. It's not strictly impossible, but it seems closer to Alien Space Bats than to anything feasible.

[Lord Halifax]

The whole point of the collapse of the Soviet Union is that it marked the end of Marxism-Leninism as a viable governing ideology, and thus (from one perspective) represented the liberation of the Russians as well from the shackles of that ideology and the entity it was the guiding spirit for, not the defeat of Russia as a state and the Russians as a people. Heck, the final death blow to  the Soviet Union was delivered by the Russian Federation itself when it seceded (in conjunction with Ukraine and Belarus, the Central Asian countries didn’t really get a look in on the process) from the Union.

Russia =\= the Soviet Union.

Nah, which is what happens when you win a Cold War as opposed to a real one. The Soviet Union was a reincarnation of the Russian Empire and since its demise didn't result in a Western occupation the "imperial dream" and fantasies about Russian greatness and the existence of a "Russian world" survived it. Any Western economic aid, investments and trade agreements with Yeltsin's Russia should have been conditioned on Russia giving up its nuclear arsenal, otherwise we should have continued to treat Russia as an enemy nation and isolated them as much as possible. China was much less of a factor back then and if the alternatives had been "give up your nukes or starve" they might eventually have caved. 

[OSR stands with Israel]

The whole point of the collapse of the Soviet Union is that it marked the end of Marxism-Leninism as a viable governing ideology, and thus (from one perspective) represented the liberation of the Russians as well from the shackles of that ideology and the entity it was the guiding spirit for, not the defeat of Russia as a state and the Russians as a people. Heck, the final death blow to  the Soviet Union was delivered by the Russian Federation itself when it seceded (in conjunction with Ukraine and Belarus, the Central Asian countries didn’t really get a look in on the process) from the Union.

Russia =\= the Soviet Union.

Nah, which is what happens when you win a Cold War as opposed to a real one. The Soviet Union was a reincarnation of the Russian Empire and since its demise didn't result in a Western occupation the "imperial dream" and fantasies about Russian greatness and the existence of a "Russian world" survived it. Any Western economic aid, investments and trade agreements with Yeltsin's Russia should have been conditioned on Russia giving up its nuclear arsenal, otherwise we should have continued to treat Russia as an enemy nation and isolated them as much as possible. China was much less of a factor back then and if the alternatives had been "give up your nukes or starve" they might eventually have caved. 

The Soviet Union was not a reincarnation of the Russian Empire lol . The Soviet Union was way different ideologically and were actively hostile to the West while the Russian empire was an ally to the west .

[Lord Halifax]

The whole point of the collapse of the Soviet Union is that it marked the end of Marxism-Leninism as a viable governing ideology, and thus (from one perspective) represented the liberation of the Russians as well from the shackles of that ideology and the entity it was the guiding spirit for, not the defeat of Russia as a state and the Russians as a people. Heck, the final death blow to  the Soviet Union was delivered by the Russian Federation itself when it seceded (in conjunction with Ukraine and Belarus, the Central Asian countries didn’t really get a look in on the process) from the Union.

Russia =\= the Soviet Union.

Nah, which is what happens when you win a Cold War as opposed to a real one. The Soviet Union was a reincarnation of the Russian Empire and since its demise didn't result in a Western occupation the "imperial dream" and fantasies about Russian greatness and the existence of a "Russian world" survived it. Any Western economic aid, investments and trade agreements with Yeltsin's Russia should have been conditioned on Russia giving up its nuclear arsenal, otherwise we should have continued to treat Russia as an enemy nation and isolated them as much as possible. China was much less of a factor back then and if the alternatives had been "give up your nukes or starve" they might eventually have caved. 

The Soviet Union was not a reincarnation of the Russian Empire lol . The Soviet Union was way different ideologically and were actively hostile to the West while the Russian empire was an ally to the west .

ideology is overrated, it rarely determines the core interests and nature of a state. The Soviet Union was in reality a continuation of the Russian Empire with a different ideology and a different elite, but with a similar territory, Russo-centric ethnic hierarchy and geo-strategic ambitions. "The West" did not exist as a meaningful entity prior to WW2 (the European powers were always divided), even in WW1 it makes no sense to say the Allies were "the West" while Germany and Austro-Hungary weren't, and the Russian Empire was of course a rival to the British Empire in the Great Game.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Under drunk Yeltsin, Russians had shrinking economy, high inflation, and shortened lifespans.

The person who talks these Putin templates about a person who suffered a bunch of heart attacks, and about an economy that was trying to recover after dozens of years of government imprisoning and shooting any private entrepreneurs, clearly indicates who he is.

Yelstin had something like a 2% approval rating. I'm sure plenty of Russians hate both Putin and Yeltsin.

[PSOL]

Under drunk Yeltsin, Russians had shrinking economy, high inflation, and shortened lifespans.

The person who talks these Putin templates about a person who suffered a bunch of heart attacks, and about an economy that was trying to recover after dozens of years of government imprisoning and shooting any private entrepreneurs, clearly indicates who he is.

Yelstin had something like a 2% approval rating. I'm sure plenty of Russians hate both Putin and Yeltsin.

There are many, especially given that those within the know do know that Putin is Yeltsin’s handpicked successor. Most of the people who have always hated Yeltsin and did so before the worst of it hate Putin today.

[Oleg 🇰🇿🤝🇺🇦]

There is such a thing as magnanimity in victory, and that would have been a good time for it.

The West did a ton for Russia post USSR collapse, we made Ukraine give up its nukes back to them for security guarantees that we now know weren’t worth the paper it was printed on, did little when Russia messed with Moldova with the Transnistria scam, didn’t recognize the Chechen revolts, along with giving them billions to stimulate the economy, and heck even made offers to let them join NATO

The West really helped Russia a lot after USSR collapse, and accepted Russia into its family, but the very attitude towards USSR collapse was wrong. "We won, **** yeah! Now no one will stop us from doing business!" It would be worthwhile to conduct a study of what USSR collapse really was, for what purpose did the Russians actually reformat their state, and what forces in Russia made this possible.

In general, the arrogance of the US in its sense of being the global policeman causes the US government to make many mistakes in international politics.