Target caves to right-wing terrorism, removes Pride merchandise for employee safety

[Independents for George Santos]

But I think there is an agenda to make children trans, who aren't trans.

You are incorrect about this. Do not believe lies from the likes of Matt Walsh, Ron DeSantis, Chiya Raichik, and the like.

Why should we believe that they're lies?

I know this will be lost on you, but you’re making the assertion that certain groups are forcibly transing kids gender. You should be the one providing credible evidence that it’s true

If what you're saying is true, wouldn't you be able to back it up?  Wouldn't you be able to give me a knowable answer as to why more people are declaring as "trans" now than ever before?  You tell me why the incidence of Gender Dysphoria is higher than it has ever been?

I mean the argument that seems to come up is that people are less discriminated against and more free to come out now. That doesn't square with accusations of so-called "trans genocide", but that's my understanding of it.

[T'Chenka]

If what you're saying is true, wouldn't you be able to back it up?  Wouldn't you be able to give me a knowable answer as to why more people are declaring as "trans" now than ever before?  You tell me why the incidence of Gender Dysphoria is higher than it has ever been?

Read up on the history of people being left-handed.

Have you ever heard of the "invisible elephant / tiger" allegory? David Pakman uses it to describe how some people twist themselves into pretzels to deny the truth. It could be applied to how many Republicans don't want real answers to your question.

Republican - there's an invisible tiger in this room
Democrat - oh, okay. well, we can't see him but maybe we can hear him?
Republican - no, he's very quiet
Democrat - well maybe we could cover the floor in baby powder, and then he would leave foot prints
Republican - no, the tiger is weightless
Democrat - well, okay, what if we leave out food and watch to see if it disappears? he has to eat
Republican - no, the tiger doesn't eat

So basically, if you don't want to prove your assertion or you don't want to accept somebody else's assertion, you can just go on and on and twist yourself into a huge pretzel to make sure you never have to prove anything or accept anything. I don't mean you specifically. I'm speaking generally.

The Republican question of "why are there more trans people now than before?" usually ends up being an invisible tiger situation. Many Republicans don't want a real answer and will reject any real answer. They just want to ask it and then discuss or imply possible explainations that "answer" the question that happen to fit into their narratives.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

But I think there is an agenda to make children trans, who aren't trans.

You are incorrect about this. Do not believe lies from the likes of Matt Walsh, Ron DeSantis, Chiya Raichik, and the like.

Why should we believe that they're lies?

I know this will be lost on you, but you’re making the assertion that certain groups are forcibly transing kids gender. You should be the one providing credible evidence that it’s true

If what you're saying is true, wouldn't you be able to back it up?  Wouldn't you be able to give me a knowable answer as to why more people are declaring as "trans" now than ever before?  You tell me why the incidence of Gender Dysphoria is higher than it has ever been?

I think it's the case both that kids are becoming trans as a result of sociocultural influence, and also that this mostly isn't because anyone is intentionally setting out to make this happen. Representations of transness are put out in the culture for the sake of being inclusive, which are then adopted as a self-understanding by kids who may be struggling with their social and bodily experience for a variety of reasons.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

But I think there is an agenda to make children trans, who aren't trans.

You are incorrect about this. Do not believe lies from the likes of Matt Walsh, Ron DeSantis, Chiya Raichik, and the like.

Why should we believe that they're lies?

I know this will be lost on you, but you’re making the assertion that certain groups are forcibly transing kids gender. You should be the one providing credible evidence that it’s true

If what you're saying is true, wouldn't you be able to back it up?  Wouldn't you be able to give me a knowable answer as to why more people are declaring as "trans" now than ever before?  You tell me why the incidence of Gender Dysphoria is higher than it has ever been?

I think it's the case both that kids are becoming trans as a result of sociocultural influence,

What actual evidence do you have for this? Because the only "evidence" for sociocultural influence inducing transness when it wasn't there before(as opposed to it allowing more people to recognize it due to increased understanding/decreased stigma) was a terribly done study that's methodology IIRC was basically just asking parents, most of whom were recruited from explicitly anti-trans forums, if they thought their kids were trans because of peer influence, and trusting that extremely biased source as gospel.

And as someone who actually has experienced gender dysphoria and s**t, social contagion and cultural influence theories are contradicted by personal experience, while transness becoming more common for reason analagous to those that made left handedness more common a century ago(increased knowledge of it plus decreased stigma leading to people being more likely to A. know what they're feeling and have language that expresses it, B. actually accept that their feelings are valid, and C. know that transition is a thing that can be done). There was some backround like of the idea of being and presenting female for most of my life, but I didn't know what being trans was until I was 9 or 10 at least, and back then it was described to me by my parents in a way that, while well meaning and not hateful, did end up setting trans people up as some kind of exotic weird people separate from the "default" I (as a white kid who was supposedly "straight" and "male") was taught on a subconscious level by my environment, media and otherwise, that I was. It took a while for me to entertain the idea that I might be trans, and I ended up thinking I wasn't because of some stupid bulls**t test that wasn't and isn't worth a thimble full of piss told me I wasn't(the fact that I gave the answer with the weird maid fetishy stuff to the "do you like cleaning" question because cleaning was kind of satisfying and the other answers all implied not liking it and also I didn't know what a fetish was), and suggested "autogynephillia", a diagnosis of sexual arousal from feeling like a hot women that is ostensibly a male fetish. Of course, the fact that many if not most cis women fit the diagnostic criteria for this "male" "fetish" calls at the very least the first part of that description into question. From my understanding, finding yourself enjoying the thought of being the opposite sex more than being your current sex during "private moments" tends to be a sign that you'd like being the opposite sex more in general.

[Ferguson97]

[7,052,770]

Very few trans teens have easy or fun lives, even if their parents support them. The incentives just don't align for someone to fake being trans to be "cool" or whatever.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Conservatives; being trans is so hip and trendy all the kids turn trans!

Also conservatives; does everything in their power to eradicate trans people short of imprisonment

Just such a cool hip trendy life style…

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

But I think there is an agenda to make children trans, who aren't trans.

You are incorrect about this. Do not believe lies from the likes of Matt Walsh, Ron DeSantis, Chiya Raichik, and the like.

Why should we believe that they're lies?

I know this will be lost on you, but you’re making the assertion that certain groups are forcibly transing kids gender. You should be the one providing credible evidence that it’s true

If what you're saying is true, wouldn't you be able to back it up?  Wouldn't you be able to give me a knowable answer as to why more people are declaring as "trans" now than ever before?  You tell me why the incidence of Gender Dysphoria is higher than it has ever been?

I think it's the case both that kids are becoming trans as a result of sociocultural influence,

What actual evidence do you have for this? Because the only "evidence" for sociocultural influence inducing transness when it wasn't there before(as opposed to it allowing more people to recognize it due to increased understanding/decreased stigma) was a terribly done study that's methodology IIRC was basically just asking parents, most of whom were recruited from explicitly anti-trans forums, if they thought their kids were trans because of peer influence, and trusting that extremely biased source as gospel.

And as someone who actually has experienced gender dysphoria and s**t, social contagion and cultural influence theories are contradicted by personal experience, while transness becoming more common for reason analagous to those that made left handedness more common a century ago(increased knowledge of it plus decreased stigma leading to people being more likely to A. know what they're feeling and have language that expresses it, B. actually accept that their feelings are valid, and C. know that transition is a thing that can be done). There was some backround like of the idea of being and presenting female for most of my life, but I didn't know what being trans was until I was 9 or 10 at least, and back then it was described to me by my parents in a way that, while well meaning and not hateful, did end up setting trans people up as some kind of exotic weird people separate from the "default" I (as a white kid who was supposedly "straight" and "male") was taught on a subconscious level by my environment, media and otherwise, that I was. It took a while for me to entertain the idea that I might be trans, and I ended up thinking I wasn't because of some stupid bulls**t test that wasn't and isn't worth a thimble full of piss told me I wasn't(the fact that I gave the answer with the weird maid fetishy stuff to the "do you like cleaning" question because cleaning was kind of satisfying and the other answers all implied not liking it and also I didn't know what a fetish was), and suggested "autogynephillia", a diagnosis of sexual arousal from feeling like a hot women that is ostensibly a male fetish. Of course, the fact that many if not most cis women fit the diagnostic criteria for this "male" "fetish" calls at the very least the first part of that description into question. From my understanding, finding yourself enjoying the thought of being the opposite sex more than being your current sex during "private moments" tends to be a sign that you'd like being the opposite sex more in general.

It’s pretty clear to me that the experience of gender is to a significant degree social and cultural. If the concept of gender and how it relates to sex changes in a culture, why wouldn’t I expect that change how people identify what gender they are?  The act of labeling an experience has a tendency to modify that experience toward the pattern of the label. 

Not just the number but also the demographic profile of who is trans has changed over time. It used to be most were adult MtF, but now a large proportion are adolescent FtM.  This suggests that the things that lead someone to identify as trans today are likely different than in the past.

Regarding left-handedness, the concept of being left-handed isn’t new. And stigma by itself is probably not a good explanation for lower rates a century ago. The historical data on it isn’t great, but it seems that low rates of left-handedness were associated with the industrial revolution and universal education, where kids ended up learning to be right-handed because their physical environments were set up for that, and most adapted to it. Before that, left-handedness might have been about as common as today.

[RINO Tom]

Use your brains guys. They're removing these things because the demand for them isn't there. If they were profitable they would keep selling them.

More often than not, this logic is correctly invoked when it's favorable to the social progress agenda ("diverse movie casts is a product of demand, not top-down wokeness"). Live by the supply-demand curve, die by the supply-demand curve.

And what kind of absolutely retarded business mind thought these two items would sell?  Talk about fringe audiences…

[DrScholl]

There seems to be some confusion about "becoming transgender" and simply being openly transgender. Numbers change because more people feel safer being transgender and if they decline then it will likely be a sign that they feel less safe. Younger people are more secure about being open whereas older people are not.

[7,052,770]

At least 2 people from my high school class have since come out as transgender as adults. While puberty blockers and hormones were available and prescribed back in the early 00s (making the sudden Republican moral panic about them in 2022 all the more ridiculous), they weren't as widespread back then. I haven't talked to either of those people in years, so I haven't actually discussed their transitions with them, but I would suspect they probably knew they were different back then and had society been at the point it was in 2003 as it is now in 2023 (oops 2021, thanks Republicans), they probably would have transitioned back in high school.

So while societal differences are likely playing a role in why trans people are more likely to come out now than in the past, it's not because non-trans people are pretending to be trans to be cool (because, as we all remember, transgender people still live very hard lives even in areas where people support them), but because transgender people are more likely to feel safe and comfortable telling other people who they really are.

[ingemann]

Very few trans teens have easy or fun lives, even if their parents support them. The incentives just don't align for someone to fake being trans to be "cool" or whatever.

Anorexia is not a fun disorder, but the number of people suffering from the disorder increased with the increased focus on it. These things should not be seen as conscious decisions, but we were all in our teenage years convinced something were wrong with us, I’m going to guess half the people here between 25-35 year old self diagnosed with Asperger in their teenager years and really believed in it.

So yes the increase in transgender teens could be a case of increased acceptance, but it could just as well be a “fashion”.

[DrScholl]

Very few trans teens have easy or fun lives, even if their parents support them. The incentives just don't align for someone to fake being trans to be "cool" or whatever.

Anorexia is not a fun disorder, but the number of people suffering from the disorder increased with the increased focus on it. These things should not be seen as conscious decisions, but we were all in our teenage years convinced something were wrong with us, I’m going to guess half the people here between 25-35 year old self diagnosed with Asperger in their teenager years and really believed in it.

So yes the increase in transgender teens could be a case of increased acceptance, but it could just as well be a “fashion”.

Do you have a citation for that or is it based on your own "research"? It's hard to believe that more people started starving themselves just because anorexia was discussed more.

[Sol]

Target having "tuck friendly" swimwear is part of that agenda. It wants to present being trans as both cool and a choice for all children. Its the same logic as "children under five can't possible know rather they are a boy or girl so both should be presented as options"

Not sure why everyone keeps accepting this claim about "tuck friendly swimwear for children" uncritically when it's demonstrably false.

[Horus]

But I think there is an agenda to make children trans, who aren't trans.

You are incorrect about this. Do not believe lies from the likes of Matt Walsh, Ron DeSantis, Chiya Raichik, and the like.

Why should we believe that they're lies?

I know this will be lost on you, but you’re making the assertion that certain groups are forcibly transing kids gender. You should be the one providing credible evidence that it’s true

If what you're saying is true, wouldn't you be able to back it up?  Wouldn't you be able to give me a knowable answer as to why more people are declaring as "trans" now than ever before?  You tell me why the incidence of Gender Dysphoria is higher than it has ever been?

I think it's the case both that kids are becoming trans as a result of sociocultural influence,

What actual evidence do you have for this? Because the only "evidence" for sociocultural influence inducing transness when it wasn't there before(as opposed to it allowing more people to recognize it due to increased understanding/decreased stigma) was a terribly done study that's methodology IIRC was basically just asking parents, most of whom were recruited from explicitly anti-trans forums, if they thought their kids were trans because of peer influence, and trusting that extremely biased source as gospel.

And as someone who actually has experienced gender dysphoria and s**t, social contagion and cultural influence theories are contradicted by personal experience, while transness becoming more common for reason analagous to those that made left handedness more common a century ago(increased knowledge of it plus decreased stigma leading to people being more likely to A. know what they're feeling and have language that expresses it, B. actually accept that their feelings are valid, and C. know that transition is a thing that can be done). There was some backround like of the idea of being and presenting female for most of my life, but I didn't know what being trans was until I was 9 or 10 at least, and back then it was described to me by my parents in a way that, while well meaning and not hateful, did end up setting trans people up as some kind of exotic weird people separate from the "default" I (as a white kid who was supposedly "straight" and "male") was taught on a subconscious level by my environment, media and otherwise, that I was. It took a while for me to entertain the idea that I might be trans, and I ended up thinking I wasn't because of some stupid bulls**t test that wasn't and isn't worth a thimble full of piss told me I wasn't(the fact that I gave the answer with the weird maid fetishy stuff to the "do you like cleaning" question because cleaning was kind of satisfying and the other answers all implied not liking it and also I didn't know what a fetish was), and suggested "autogynephillia", a diagnosis of sexual arousal from feeling like a hot women that is ostensibly a male fetish. Of course, the fact that many if not most cis women fit the diagnostic criteria for this "male" "fetish" calls at the very least the first part of that description into question. From my understanding, finding yourself enjoying the thought of being the opposite sex more than being your current sex during "private moments" tends to be a sign that you'd like being the opposite sex more in general.

It’s pretty clear to me that the experience of gender is to a significant degree social and cultural. If the concept of gender and how it relates to sex changes in a culture, why wouldn’t I expect that change how people identify what gender they are?  The act of labeling an experience has a tendency to modify that experience toward the pattern of the label.  

Not just the number but also the demographic profile of who is trans has changed over time. It used to be most were adult MtF, but now a large proportion are adolescent FtM.  This suggests that the things that lead someone to identify as trans today are likely different than in the past.

Regarding left-handedness, the concept of being left-handed isn’t new. And stigma by itself is probably not a good explanation for lower rates a century ago. The historical data on it isn’t great, but it seems that low rates of left-handedness were associated with the industrial revolution and universal education, where kids ended up learning to be right-handed because their physical environments were set up for that, and most adapted to it. Before that, left-handedness might have been about as common as today.

The increase in ftm identification is very curious to me. Would most of these people have just been tomboys 20 years ago? Is the massive increase because these young people see the advantages men have in the world due to patriarchy and/or think being a man would be less traumatic or "safer"?

[Ferguson97]

The increase in ftm identification is very curious to me. Would most of these people have just been tomboys 20 years ago? Is the massive increase because these young people see the advantages men have in the world due to patriarchy and/or think being a man would be less traumatic or "safer"?

That's not how any of this works...

[Horus]

The increase in ftm identification is very curious to me. Would most of these people have just been tomboys 20 years ago? Is the massive increase because these young people see the advantages men have in the world due to patriarchy and/or think being a man would be less traumatic or "safer"?

That's not how any of this works...

Really? You're sure? You're not known for always being right about this stuff...

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Target having "tuck friendly" swimwear is part of that agenda. It wants to present being trans as both cool and a choice for all children. Its the same logic as "children under five can't possible know rather they are a boy or girl so both should be presented as options"

Not sure why everyone keeps accepting this claim about "tuck friendly swimwear for children" uncritically when it's demonstrably false.

Are there a lot of adult males who would fit in an XS women's swimsuit?

[BlueSwan]

What on earth would it be if not sociocultural?

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Use your brains guys. They're removing these things because the demand for them isn't there. If they were profitable they would keep selling them.

More often than not, this logic is correctly invoked when it's favorable to the social progress agenda ("diverse movie casts is a product of demand, not top-down wokeness"). Live by the supply-demand curve, die by the supply-demand curve.

And what kind of absolutely retarded business mind thought these two items would sell?  Talk about fringe audiences…

I worked at Target for around two years; at least a quarter of anyone in Target at any given time is probably part of the LGBT community, it honestly felt like half my managers were in same-sex relationships. This is also why I laugh at the idea of someone, supposedly, threatening to bomb a target for reasons of being against our community.

If it wasn't profitable they wouldn't be doing it for 10+ years. Rainbow Capitalism is a scourge, but not for the reasons right-wingers suggest.

[Ferguson97]

The increase in ftm identification is very curious to me. Would most of these people have just been tomboys 20 years ago? Is the massive increase because these young people see the advantages men have in the world due to patriarchy and/or think being a man would be less traumatic or "safer"?

That's not how any of this works...

Really? You're sure? You're not known for always being right about this stuff...

I am one of the few people on this website who doesn't have brain worms about transgender rights.

To suggest that people transition from female to male as a means of escaping the patriarchy is extremely stupid for several reasons, least of all that trans men are not seen as being "real men" by a significant portion of society, and would broadly speaking, not be awarded the same benefits that cisgender men enjoy.

But even if this gap did not exist, and cis men and trans men were treated identically by society, it would still be extremely ridiculous to suggest that people are transitioning from female to male for the purpose of increasing their relative privilege. That is not how dysphoria works and is not how gender identity works.

It's the same stupid logic that transphobes use when arguing that trans athletes transition from male to female for the sole purpose of doing better in sports. That's just an extremely stupid argument to make and is not worth treating seriously.

[Pres Mike]

The increase in ftm identification is very curious to me. Would most of these people have just been tomboys 20 years ago? Is the massive increase because these young people see the advantages men have in the world due to patriarchy and/or think being a man would be less traumatic or "safer"?

That's not how any of this works...

Really? You're sure? You're not known for always being right about this stuff...

I am one of the few people on this website who doesn't have brain worms about transgender rights.

To suggest that people transition from female to male as a means of escaping the patriarchy is extremely stupid for several reasons, least of all that trans men are not seen as being "real men" by a significant portion of society, and would broadly speaking, not be awarded the same benefits that cisgender men enjoy.

But even if this gap did not exist, and cis men and trans men were treated identically by society, it would still be extremely ridiculous to suggest that people are transitioning from female to male for the purpose of increasing their relative privilege. That is not how dysphoria works and is not how gender identity works.

It's the same stupid logic that transphobes use when arguing that trans athletes transition from male to female for the sole purpose of doing better in sports. That's just an extremely stupid argument to make and is not worth treating seriously.

Especially since there are a LOT more trans women than trans men.

Of course, this is just a theory I have. But I wonder if there are more trans men than trans women because women enjoy certain benefits men do not have. Like, if you are a guy your whole value is based on what you can provide finacially. How many men go decades without any love or affection?

[Ferguson97]

because women enjoy certain benefits men do not have

No such benefit exists.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

because women enjoy certain benefits men do not have

No such benefit exists.

I hope she sees this bro.

[Ferguson97]

because women enjoy certain benefits men do not have

No such benefit exists.

I hope she sees this bro.

Hope who sees this?