Men and women are just different, can't you agree?
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  Men and women are just different, can't you agree?
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Author Topic: Men and women are just different, can't you agree?  (Read 1749 times)
Suburbia
bronz4141
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« on: May 07, 2023, 08:50:55 PM »

Race is a social construct, can't you agree?

However, gender is not a social construct. This is just not debatable, in my opinion.

Men cannot get pregnant, I just cannot see that happening. Men are more athletic than women, I mean it's a reason why women athletes still don't get respect despite their achievements. Look at the disrespect Serena Williams still gets despite being a 20+ Grand Slam tennis champion...

Women like different things than men. Gender is wired that way, or am I outdated in some aspects?
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the artist formerly known as catmusic
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2023, 09:29:21 PM »

Women like different things than men. Gender is wired that way, or am I outdated in some aspects?

There is no conformity among women or men as groups. There are stereotypes which are somewhat based in reality, but they do not equate a full description of these groups. Without conformity it is hard to say "men and women are different" because of their interests. I'm a dude; I hate sports, I hate beer, I want my soap to smell like fruit and vanilla, I cry at movies, I like being the little spoon, I like cooking and cleaning, I'm interested in the arts, I like clothing and fashion, sometimes I like messing around with makeup or gender-bendy outfits. I'm still a dude.

Biology is a thing, of course. Males and females have different equipment. But that's a sex topic, not a gender topic.

Gender being a social construct has more to do with the assumed roles of men and women. It doesn't mean that being male is a social construct - it means that the societal expectation of "being a man" is something we created, that has little to do with biology. What about being born male means I should like beer instead of a fruity drink? What about being born male means I should be allowed to wear blue but not pink? What about being born male means I should have to hide my emotions and toughen up? I understand that there are arguments for why we might have been predisposed to create these gender norms, but in 2023, what is their purpose? And even if it's a predisposition - it was still created. And these things change at rapid pace; remember how 10 years ago it was considered completely scandalous for men to wear skinny jeans? Now every straight dude of every political affiliation is wearing them. If there's an ever-changing set of rules and expectations, how are these not things we have created?
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progressive85
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2023, 10:58:18 PM »

I think it's all about the brain that you're born with really.  Every brain is different because every human being is unique.

There is of course male and female as the two sexes but there's babies born that don't align exactly, which is to be expected as Nature is not without its surprises and there are variations from the norm.

I'd say for most of the population you have a very heterosexual cisgender world that's being created, but there's going to be that small minority that is born into the "out-group".

I strongly believe that so much of what we are occurs during the time we are in the womb.  It's a very important time of development for the brain.

As for gender expression - some of that is society's reinforcement of mores, values, beliefs, much of it is based in religious values.  Some of it is biological in nature, with key differences between the male and the female sides.

I hope that one day we accept our children for what they are - that we tell our kids that they can be themselves, not have to be afraid to express themselves according to their own nature, instead of how other people want them to be.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2023, 07:09:27 PM »

Don't even know how I'm supposed to answer this in a way that wouldn't be sexist/transpohobic/whateverist due to all the pretzel logic going around so I'm not going to touch this with a ten foot pole.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2023, 12:08:42 PM »

While this may be a rare not (primarily) race-related bronz threaf, it is a bronz threaf nonetheless.
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MarkD
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2023, 08:16:48 PM »

Quote
It will need more than the 19th Amendment to convince me that there are no differences between men and women. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
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💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)
peenie_weenie
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2023, 10:53:01 PM »

However, gender is not a social construct. This is just not debatable, in my opinion.

Gender is absolutely a social construct. Your entire post more or less conflates gender and sex.

Biological sex is hugely important for determining physiological differences between men and women. The only people who argue against this are fringe crazies and tumblr teens. However, just because the means of the two sexes are different doesn't mean there's an incredible amount of overlap between the two distributions. So while there are differences between the average (cis) man and the average (cis) woman, it's to be expected you're going to find deviations from that when you make comparisons between individual men and individual women.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2023, 08:01:47 AM »

The problem with gender ideology is that it is regressive on this very point:  that societal gender roles inform and even dictate the reality of being a man or a woman, and that people who are uncomfortable, reject or invert these roles are actually supposed to be the opposite sex, or something.

Puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and sex reassignment surgery are not about "gender identity" because gender is an entirely social construct and these are physical interventions.  Affirming "gender dysphoria" has come to mean changing physical reality to conform to our social expectations, often in very regressive ways (i.e., "I knew I was trans/felt different when, as a little boy, I played with dolls and make-up.") 
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President of the civil service full of trans activists
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2023, 10:22:21 AM »

Affirming "gender dysphoria" has come to mean changing physical reality to conform to our social expectations, often in very regressive ways (i.e., "I knew I was trans/felt different when, as a little boy, I played with dolls and make-up.") 
Well, the joke's on you, because I didn't play with dolls or makeup when I was a kid! I just disliked how having a dick and balls (and as I grew up, said dick and balls' consequences) felt! Of course, that probably just makes me a pervert in your eyes, but whatever.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2023, 04:19:15 PM »

Bronz thread and all ... gender can have elements that are "social constructs" while still having biological elements that line up with those constructs.  There have absolutely been scientific studies that show men and women are more likely to have certain behaviors that do not have to be taught to them.  That really shouldn't be as threatening as it is to people.
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Damocles
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2023, 05:16:28 PM »

Bronz threaf
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2023, 05:58:42 PM »

Affirming "gender dysphoria" has come to mean changing physical reality to conform to our social expectations, often in very regressive ways (i.e., "I knew I was trans/felt different when, as a little boy, I played with dolls and make-up.") 
Well, the joke's on you, because I didn't play with dolls or makeup when I was a kid! I just disliked how having a dick and balls (and as I grew up, said dick and balls' consequences) felt! Of course, that probably just makes me a pervert in your eyes, but whatever.

Well, do you feel like a pervert?  That's not a question I can answer for you LOL

In the interest of truth-seeking:  how is what you describe any different from BDD?  I can understand the feeling of rejecting certain physical aspects of your body but that is not the same as "feeling" like a different gender.  Is it simply the case that losing your "dick and balls" is more *aesthetic* (and thus less serious) than wanting to lose your legs or ability to see?  what does that mean for sex as a concept by which we can meaningfully differentiate people and their experiences?     

Cis people conceptualize and experience their own gender too, and I have never felt like a man.  Being a man is not a feeling.  I simply am a man.  If I felt uncomfortable in my body, I would be a man feeling uncomfortable with his male body.  But that wouldn't make me a woman or some other third thing.   
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President of the civil service full of trans activists
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2023, 07:12:55 PM »

I don't "feel" like a pervert, I was just pointing out that the common thread of cisgenderism (the way I see it, if cis people can call "transgenderism" an ideology that holds that transgenders are people, I can call "cisgenderism" an ideology that holds that transgenders are not people [and before you complain, yes, I am exaggerating to get my point across]) is that if a trans person's backstory does not reinforce gender roles, then they must be some kind of pervert. See: autogynephilia theory.

As for what makes my experiences of gender dysphoria different than BDD, I'll explain: the aforementioned "consequences" of my primary sex characteristics (i.e. male puberty and testosterone exposure). That's what made me "feel" like I'm a woman. That, and the fact that estrogen, while not a panacea, helped my mental health quite a bit. Though yeah, I will concede that the fact that getting rid of one's genitals is less physically debilitating than getting rid of one's legs or eyes (what you call "aesthetic") doesn't hurt.

Hopefully this made sense and wasn't just a bunch of deranged rambling. I feel like it was the latter, but...
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2023, 01:17:18 AM »

The problem with gender ideology is that it is regressive on this very point:  that societal gender roles inform and even dictate the reality of being a man or a woman, and that people who are uncomfortable, reject or invert these roles are actually supposed to be the opposite sex, or something.

Puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and sex reassignment surgery are not about "gender identity" because gender is an entirely social construct and these are physical interventions.  Affirming "gender dysphoria" has come to mean changing physical reality to conform to our social expectations, often in very regressive ways (i.e., "I knew I was trans/felt different when, as a little boy, I played with dolls and make-up.") 

Are you seriously saying that this person isn't a progressive, feminist individual:

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Jim Crow
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2023, 08:17:23 PM »

Race is a social construct, can't you agree?

However, gender is not a social construct. This is just not debatable, in my opinion.

Men cannot get pregnant, I just cannot see that happening. Men are more athletic than women, I mean it's a reason why women athletes still don't get respect despite their achievements. Look at the disrespect Serena Williams still gets despite being a 20+ Grand Slam tennis champion...

Women like different things than men. Gender is wired that way, or am I outdated in some aspects?

No you're completely right.  No one should ever let society erode their common sense.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2023, 05:17:05 AM »

It would be useful if people who use concepts like 'social construct' actually understood what they mean. Something that, according to the relevant theories, is 'socially constructed' is still real, as society is real. 'Socially constructed' does not mean 'fake; false; fraudulent'.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2023, 01:16:51 PM »

Bronz thread and all ... gender can have elements that are "social constructs" while still having biological elements that line up with those constructs.  There have absolutely been scientific studies that show men and women are more likely to have certain behaviors that do not have to be taught to them.  That really shouldn't be as threatening as it is to people.

     Indeed it's not an either/or, and it is unfortunate that so many people treat it as if it were. Men and women are actually different in a core sense, and aspects of that difference are also exaggerated and reinforced by society, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are also aspects that are arbitrary, like blue being for boys and pink being for girls, but that is ultimately the least interesting aspect of gender as a phenomenon.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2023, 12:56:37 PM »
« Edited: May 24, 2023, 01:02:01 PM by All Along The Watchtower »

It would be useful if people who use concepts like 'social construct' actually understood what they mean. Something that, according to the relevant theories, is 'socially constructed' is still real, as society is real. 'Socially constructed' does not mean 'fake; false; fraudulent'.

Sure, but the relevant point isn't that social constructs are "fake, false, fraudulent", but that they are potentially more flexible than if it were all biologically determined. And considering the long (and ongoing) history of arguing the latter to justify sexism and other discriminatory "isms" that have many, very real consequences, I reckon it's especially important to push back on the ideology that underpins it---because it is ideology, not "an objective understanding of biology."
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PSOL
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2023, 11:09:36 PM »

A little late for one to join this fight this time, and so fleeting.

Your queer bronz, get over it.
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MarkD
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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2023, 10:41:59 AM »

A little late for one to join this fight this time, and so fleeting.

Your queer bronz, get over it.

"You're" ....... "Your queer" is grammatical fallacy.

Signed, your friendly neighborhood grammar Nazi.
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