Man chokes out mentally ill street performer for 15 minutes, NYPD lets him off

[LBJer]

I have a feeling it's going to be somewhat difficult to get the full jury to find the defendant guilty (at least on the "biggest" charge or charges).

Most criminal cases never reach a jury anyway.

[SWE]

You are allowed to defend yourself from someone who is threatening you even if they have not yet begun to attack. This is very basic criminal law: self-defense applies in cases in which an individual is being attacked or reasonably believes they are about to be attacked. For instance

The doctrine of self-defense allows that otherwise criminal force can be
justified so long as the actor reasonably believes its use necessary to protect
against imminent and unlawful attack.

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/american-criminal-law-review/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2019/06/56-4-self-defense-without-imminence.pdf

Notice how this definition does not say the attack must have already begun? That is because it would be incredibly stupid to require people to limit their self-defense until after they have already been attacked. It is the kind of idea that can only be found on Atlas or on Twitter when a "bad person" (someone without victim status) defends themselves from a "good person" (someone with victim status).

Key word here is "reasonably." If the murderer truly believed deadly force was appropriate in this instance, insanity would be the applicable defense, not self-defense

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

I think Daniel Penny was in the right. Jordan Neely was acting unhinged on the subway ride. Several passengers felt unsafe and moved cars. Than Neely stands up and starts threatening everyone saying “I’m about to go to jail”. He easily could have had a weapon.

Daniel Penny is a hero. He kept everyone safe.

The number of people on this website who think choking someone *to death* is somehow a proportionate response to a person yelling angrily is truly alarming.

The manslaughter charge is appropriate given the overall circumstances of the event.

It wasn't his intention to choke him to death? I wasn't there so I cant say rather the amount of physical force was proportionate. That said, I do think some restraint was warranted. And its entirely possible restraining Neely until police arrived meant he would be choked out. Only the All Mighty knows for sure.

Killing someone when you didn't actually intend to is the sort of thing that fits squarely within the definition of manslaughter.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

The definition of 2nd degree manslaughter varies from state to state, but usually it is something like performing a reckless act that unintentionally results in the death of another person.

The most reasonable interpretation of what happened as I see it:
- Penny was justified in trying to subdue Neely.  He would not have been justifies in intentionally killing him.
- Penny’s chokehold was intended to subdue Neely but not kill him.
- However, Penny executed the chokehold recklessly, and this resulted in Neely’ death.

So it seems like 2nd degree manslaughter fits here exactly.

[Pres Mike]

I think Daniel Penny was in the right. Jordan Neely was acting unhinged on the subway ride. Several passengers felt unsafe and moved cars. Than Neely stands up and starts threatening everyone saying “I’m about to go to jail”. He easily could have had a weapon.

Daniel Penny is a hero. He kept everyone safe.

The number of people on this website who think choking someone *to death* is somehow a proportionate response to a person yelling angrily is truly alarming.

The manslaughter charge is appropriate given the overall circumstances of the event.

It wasn't his intention to choke him to death? I wasn't there so I cant say rather the amount of physical force was proportionate. That said, I do think some restraint was warranted. And its entirely possible restraining Neely until police arrived meant he would be choked out. Only the All Mighty knows for sure.

"It wasn't his intention" isn't a good excuse. Neely didn't attack anyone, yet this thug choked him to death for just yelling.

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Oh, for God's sake, can it with the wokeness. This man is not innocent, he choked a man to death for no good reason. I don't even know how a person could sleep after doing such a thing.

He threarten everyone on the subway. He needed to be restrained. If a police officer was there, he would have restrained him per policy

[Pres Mike]

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Someone who choke a man who desperately needed actual help to death because he was being kind of unnerving is not an innocent man you racist ableist ghoul.

How am I racist? When did I mention race? Neely was a danger to everyone on the train and threarten to cause harm. He was restrained. Ideally he would not have been choked to death and arrested. But perhaps he was resisitng? Perhaps keeping him in a chokehold was the only way to prevent him from harming others.

[Pres Mike]

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

It's "woke" if we think that it wasn't necessary to extrajudicially kill this man??

They weren't trying to kill him, that just happened. They were trying to prevent him from harming others

[Pres Mike]

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Someone who choke a man who desperately needed actual help to death because he was being kind of unnerving is not an innocent man you racist ableist ghoul.

Neely was making threats, not just being unnerving; Neely was repeatedly offered "actual help" that he frankly didn't deserve and rejected it, which is why there was a warrant out for his arrest at the time of his death, and it is not racist to defend yourself from a dangerous criminal.

Thank you!

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Someone who choke a man who desperately needed actual help to death because he was being kind of unnerving is not an innocent man you racist ableist ghoul.

How am I racist? When did I mention race? Neely was a danger to everyone on the train and threarten to cause harm. He was restrained. Ideally he would not have been choked to death and arrested. But perhaps he was resisitng? Perhaps keeping him in a chokehold was the only way to prevent him from harming others.

A stupid accusation of racism. Congratulations, you, as a citizen of the internet, have  undergone a rite of passage.

[Pres Mike]

It's disturbing to see so many people root for vigilante justice in this situation. Neely clearly should have been arrested and placed in an inpatient institution of some kind, but that does not mean his life was forfeit the minute he stepped onto that subway car. I think people will find that vigilante justice from nonstate actors is a far, far worse alternative to a professional and publicly funded police force.

Also, you do not need to kill a man to defend yourself from a punch. The idea that Neely needed to be choked to death for self defense reasons is laughable. If you think the guy was a degenerate who deserved to die, say it! Spare us the legalese kabuki theater.

The goal wasn't to kill Neely. No one is claiming he forfeited his life. But he was a danger to others and needed to be restrained until police arrived. Its unfortunet he died, but keeping him in a chokehold was the only way to keep him restrained until police arrived

[DrScholl]

I think Daniel Penny was in the right. Jordan Neely was acting unhinged on the subway ride. Several passengers felt unsafe and moved cars. Than Neely stands up and starts threatening everyone saying “I’m about to go to jail”. He easily could have had a weapon.

Daniel Penny is a hero. He kept everyone safe.

The number of people on this website who think choking someone *to death* is somehow a proportionate response to a person yelling angrily is truly alarming.

The manslaughter charge is appropriate given the overall circumstances of the event.

It wasn't his intention to choke him to death? I wasn't there so I cant say rather the amount of physical force was proportionate. That said, I do think some restraint was warranted. And its entirely possible restraining Neely until police arrived meant he would be choked out. Only the All Mighty knows for sure.

"It wasn't his intention" isn't a good excuse. Neely didn't attack anyone, yet this thug choked him to death for just yelling.

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Oh, for God's sake, can it with the wokeness. This man is not innocent, he choked a man to death for no good reason. I don't even know how a person could sleep after doing such a thing.

He threarten everyone on the subway. He needed to be restrained. If a police officer was there, he would have restrained him per policy

Where was the physical threat? You can't use deadly force over verbal threats. Conceivably the police could make an arrest on the grounds of criminal threats depending on circumstances, but without a person physically attacking someone you can't say they need to be restrained based on words alone.

[LBJer]

I think Daniel Penny was in the right. Jordan Neely was acting unhinged on the subway ride. Several passengers felt unsafe and moved cars. Than Neely stands up and starts threatening everyone saying “I’m about to go to jail”. He easily could have had a weapon.

Daniel Penny is a hero. He kept everyone safe.

The number of people on this website who think choking someone *to death* is somehow a proportionate response to a person yelling angrily is truly alarming.

The manslaughter charge is appropriate given the overall circumstances of the event.

It wasn't his intention to choke him to death? I wasn't there so I cant say rather the amount of physical force was proportionate. That said, I do think some restraint was warranted. And its entirely possible restraining Neely until police arrived meant he would be choked out. Only the All Mighty knows for sure.

"It wasn't his intention" isn't a good excuse. Neely didn't attack anyone, yet this thug choked him to death for just yelling.

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Oh, for God's sake, can it with the wokeness. This man is not innocent, he choked a man to death for no good reason. I don't even know how a person could sleep after doing such a thing.

He threarten everyone on the subway. He needed to be restrained. If a police officer was there, he would have restrained him per policy

Where was the physical threat? You can't use deadly force over verbal threats.

If the verbal threats were credible and frightening enough, a prosecutor who charges someone for using deadly force might have a hard time getting a conviction.  And for good reason.

[Pres Mike]

I think Daniel Penny was in the right. Jordan Neely was acting unhinged on the subway ride. Several passengers felt unsafe and moved cars. Than Neely stands up and starts threatening everyone saying “I’m about to go to jail”. He easily could have had a weapon.

Daniel Penny is a hero. He kept everyone safe.

The number of people on this website who think choking someone *to death* is somehow a proportionate response to a person yelling angrily is truly alarming.

The manslaughter charge is appropriate given the overall circumstances of the event.

It wasn't his intention to choke him to death? I wasn't there so I cant say rather the amount of physical force was proportionate. That said, I do think some restraint was warranted. And its entirely possible restraining Neely until police arrived meant he would be choked out. Only the All Mighty knows for sure.

"It wasn't his intention" isn't a good excuse. Neely didn't attack anyone, yet this thug choked him to death for just yelling.

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Oh, for God's sake, can it with the wokeness. This man is not innocent, he choked a man to death for no good reason. I don't even know how a person could sleep after doing such a thing.

He threarten everyone on the subway. He needed to be restrained. If a police officer was there, he would have restrained him per policy

Where was the physical threat? You can't use deadly force over verbal threats. Conceivably the police could make an arrest on the grounds of criminal threats depending on circumstances, but without a person physically attacking someone you can't say they need to be restrained based on words alone.

Ah....yes you can? If Neely said "I have a bomb" or "I am about to shoot everyone" you can't restrain him? You very much have the right to restrain someone for a physical threat. Its called a citizen's arrest.

Had this occured anywhere else in the country*, its doubtful charges would have been filed

[Torie]

It would be nice if the OP headline that was misleading from the outset was now updated. No, I am not holding my breath on that.

[free my dawg]

It would be nice if the OP headline that was misleading from the outset was now updated. No, I am not holding my breath on that.

Not misleading at all. The NYPD let him walk free after the first round of questioning.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Someone who choke a man who desperately needed actual help to death because he was being kind of unnerving is not an innocent man you racist ableist ghoul.

How am I racist? When did I mention race? Neely was a danger to everyone on the train and threarten to cause harm. He was restrained. Ideally he would not have been choked to death and arrested. But perhaps he was resisitng? Perhaps keeping him in a chokehold was the only way to prevent him from harming others.

I mean, you're saying someone who killed a mentally ill black man who wasn't a threat to his life was an "innocent man" and are clearly torturing the facts to find a way that maybe he might not been even remotely in the wrong. It's quite similar to the people desperately twisting themselves into knots to find a way to claim that George Floyd's murderer was totally innocent guys. And your generally loathsome personality doesn't really make me reconsider, Mr "forcibly medicating children into zombies is good, actually".

From what I've heard the claims that Neely genuinely looked dangerous enough to a reasonable observer to need to be restrained is a lot more dubious than certain types are claiming. And y'know, a guy who was well trained in combat and restraining people clearly can be expected to know how to restrain people without killing them, especially a homeless man on the street who wasn't likely particularly strong.

[SteveRogers]

I think Daniel Penny was in the right. Jordan Neely was acting unhinged on the subway ride. Several passengers felt unsafe and moved cars. Than Neely stands up and starts threatening everyone saying “I’m about to go to jail”. He easily could have had a weapon.

Daniel Penny is a hero. He kept everyone safe.

The number of people on this website who think choking someone *to death* is somehow a proportionate response to a person yelling angrily is truly alarming.

The manslaughter charge is appropriate given the overall circumstances of the event.

It wasn't his intention to choke him to death? I wasn't there so I cant say rather the amount of physical force was proportionate. That said, I do think some restraint was warranted. And its entirely possible restraining Neely until police arrived meant he would be choked out. Only the All Mighty knows for sure.

"It wasn't his intention" isn't a good excuse. Neely didn't attack anyone, yet this thug choked him to death for just yelling.

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

Oh, for God's sake, can it with the wokeness. This man is not innocent, he choked a man to death for no good reason. I don't even know how a person could sleep after doing such a thing.

He threarten everyone on the subway. He needed to be restrained. If a police officer was there, he would have restrained him per policy

Where was the physical threat? You can't use deadly force over verbal threats. Conceivably the police could make an arrest on the grounds of criminal threats depending on circumstances, but without a person physically attacking someone you can't say they need to be restrained based on words alone.

Ah....yes you can? If Neely said "I have a bomb" or "I am about to shoot everyone" you can't restrain him? You very much have the right to restrain someone for a physical threat. Its called a citizen's arrest.

Had this occured anywhere else in the country*, its doubtful charges would have been filed

Did he say “I have a bomb” or “I am about to shoot everyone” though? Because that’s the kind of thing that might justify the use of deadly force. But there’s been no reporting that he said anything of the kind.

[7,052,770]

Once again the woke mob wins, they got charges for an innocent man

It's "woke" if we think that it wasn't necessary to extrajudicially kill this man??

They weren't trying to kill him, that just happened. They were trying to prevent him from harming others

The fact that he wasn't "trying" to kill him is why he's being charged with manslaughter and not murder. I think we're all fine with that. But most of us aren't going to just shrug off a killing by some wannabe hero, at least not without getting some additional context that we haven't heard yet.

"Bbut what if he said he had a bomb??" Well did he say that? I haven't seen any indications that he did. Why even make up random hypotheticals?

It would be one thing if Neely had just gotten bruised a bit and was making a big scene about it. Most of us probably wouldn't be that sympathetic. But we'll remind you yet again that Neely is dead because of Perry's negligent actions, and killing someone has a such a high bar for justification. It's not just woke stupidity to think that this story, as it is currently being presented, may not meet that high bar.

[Jeffster]

Here is a witness that came forward to tell the press what she saw:

A straphanger who was on the subway when former Marine Daniel Penny placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold said Thursday she’s “praying” for Penny after it was revealed the 24-year-old would face charges tied to the high-profile case.

“I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him,” the 66-year-old woman, who did not want to be identified, told The Post Thursday night. “And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do. Because after all of this ensued, I went back and made sure that I said ‘Thank you’ to him.”

The subway rider said Neely, who had a history of mental illness, was threatening passengers after he hopped on an F train in Manhattan.

“He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

The retiree said Penny did not initially engage with Neely during the wild rant until things got out of hand and he felt the urge to step in.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/

And more of Neely's recent violent behavior from the NY Times:

In November 2021, Mr. Neely’s aggression seemed to peak, when he punched a 67-year-old woman in the street on the Lower East Side, breaking her nose, the police said. He was charged with assault and, awaiting the resolution of his case, spent 15 months in jail, the police said, though his family said the stint was shorter.

He pleaded guilty on Feb. 9 of this year, in a carefully planned strategy between the city and his lawyers to allow him to get treatment and stay out of prison. Even the victim signed off on the plan.

“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing.

“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied.

“What is that goal?”

“To make it physically and mentally to the program.”

He was to go from court to live at a treatment facility in the Bronx, and stay clean for 15 months. In return, his felony conviction would be reduced. He promised to take his medication and to avoid drugs, and not to leave the facility without permission.

“This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said.

“Thank you so much,” Mr. Neely replied.

But just 13 days later, he abandoned the facility. Judge Biben issued a warrant for his arrest.

In March, an outreach worker saw him in the subway, neatly dressed, calm and subdued, and got him a ride to a shelter in the Bronx. (The outreach workers typically do not check for arrest warrants when interacting with homeless people.) But a downward spiral followed.

On April 9, when outreach workers approached him in a subway car at the end of the line in Coney Island, Mr. Neely urinated in front of them. When an outreach worker went to call the police, according to a worker’s notes, Mr. Neely shouted, “Just wait until they get here, I got something for you, just wait and see.”

Officers arrived and ejected Mr. Neely from the train, apparently unaware of the arrest warrant.

Five days after that, an outreach worker saw him in Coney Island and noted that he was aggressive and incoherent. “He could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated,” the worker wrote.

Two weeks later, he was riding an F train in SoHo for what would be the last time.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230507144054/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html

[DrScholl]

If the verbal threats were credible and frightening enough, a prosecutor who charges someone for using deadly force might have a hard time getting a conviction.  And for good reason.

That's not what I asked. I've asked several times for evidence that Neely was presenting a PHYSICAL threat and no one has provided any. Again, criminal threats are an offense the police can make arrests on, but you can't physically attack anyone over a verbal threat alone.

Ah....yes you can? If Neely said "I have a bomb" or "I am about to shoot everyone" you can't restrain him? You very much have the right to restrain someone for a physical threat. Its called a citizen's arrest.

Had this occured anywhere else in the country*, its doubtful charges would have been filed

Now you're making things up. None of this was said.

[LBJer]

If the verbal threats were credible and frightening enough, a prosecutor who charges someone for using deadly force might have a hard time getting a conviction.  And for good reason.

That's not what I asked. I've asked several times for evidence that Neely was presenting a PHYSICAL threat and no one has provided any. Again, criminal threats are an offense the police can make arrests on, but you can't physically attack anyone over a verbal threat alone.

I wasn't talking about Neely in particular.  And my post was about what might happen after someone responded to a credible verbal threat with deadly force.  Obviously people do things the law doesn't "allow" them to do all the time--and in far less sympathetic circumstances than being threatened. 

[Torie]

It would be nice if the OP headline that was misleading from the outset was now updated. No, I am not holding my breath on that.

Not misleading at all. The NYPD let him walk free after the first round of questioning.

"Letting off" implies or connotes that the police had ceased investigating the matter, which proved to be untrue. But obviously you most emphatically disagree. That is OK. And you have safety in numbers in any event. Incendiary headlines have become very popular, and resistance is futile.

[jojoju1998]

The man needs mental counseling.

Just saying.

[free my dawg]

It would be nice if the OP headline that was misleading from the outset was now updated. No, I am not holding my breath on that.

Not misleading at all. The NYPD let him walk free after the first round of questioning.

"Letting off" implies or connotes that the police had ceased investigating the matter, which proved to be untrue. But obviously you most emphatically disagree. That is OK. And you have safety in numbers in any event. Incendiary headlines have become very popular, and resistance is futile.

A man who just killed somone gets released into the public, without charges, after conflicting testimony. I would call that "letting someone off", especially after the charges and investigation came after the renewed interest in the case.

It's like the NYPD took one look at their backgrounds and decided the case on that alone. You reverse the races in this situation, a black "Penny" gets arrested. Just look at how the justice system treated Cyntoia Brown or Philando Castile. Or how it took 3 months to arrest Ahmaud Arbery's murderers. And how the Georgia bar let those who tried to cover his murder up off the hook as well. I think it's pretty clear that if Daniel Penny was black, the situation would be a lot different.

You can disagree all you want. Where I start to take umbrage is when you accuse me of intentionally trying to mislead people for an agenda. As far as I'm concerned, your post is an attack on my integrity and my character. I really thought you were above this.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Here is a witness that came forward to tell the press what she saw:

A straphanger who was on the subway when former Marine Daniel Penny placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold said Thursday she’s “praying” for Penny after it was revealed the 24-year-old would face charges tied to the high-profile case.

“I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him,” the 66-year-old woman, who did not want to be identified, told The Post Thursday night. “And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do. Because after all of this ensued, I went back and made sure that I said ‘Thank you’ to him.”

The subway rider said Neely, who had a history of mental illness, was threatening passengers after he hopped on an F train in Manhattan.

“He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

The retiree said Penny did not initially engage with Neely during the wild rant until things got out of hand and he felt the urge to step in.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/

And more of Neely's recent violent behavior from the NY Times:

In November 2021, Mr. Neely’s aggression seemed to peak, when he punched a 67-year-old woman in the street on the Lower East Side, breaking her nose, the police said. He was charged with assault and, awaiting the resolution of his case, spent 15 months in jail, the police said, though his family said the stint was shorter.

He pleaded guilty on Feb. 9 of this year, in a carefully planned strategy between the city and his lawyers to allow him to get treatment and stay out of prison. Even the victim signed off on the plan.

“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing.

“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied.

“What is that goal?”

“To make it physically and mentally to the program.”

He was to go from court to live at a treatment facility in the Bronx, and stay clean for 15 months. In return, his felony conviction would be reduced. He promised to take his medication and to avoid drugs, and not to leave the facility without permission.

“This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said.

“Thank you so much,” Mr. Neely replied.

But just 13 days later, he abandoned the facility. Judge Biben issued a warrant for his arrest.

In March, an outreach worker saw him in the subway, neatly dressed, calm and subdued, and got him a ride to a shelter in the Bronx. (The outreach workers typically do not check for arrest warrants when interacting with homeless people.) But a downward spiral followed.

On April 9, when outreach workers approached him in a subway car at the end of the line in Coney Island, Mr. Neely urinated in front of them. When an outreach worker went to call the police, according to a worker’s notes, Mr. Neely shouted, “Just wait until they get here, I got something for you, just wait and see.”

Officers arrived and ejected Mr. Neely from the train, apparently unaware of the arrest warrant.

Five days after that, an outreach worker saw him in Coney Island and noted that he was aggressive and incoherent. “He could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated,” the worker wrote.

Two weeks later, he was riding an F train in SoHo for what would be the last time.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230507144054/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html

If there were some sort of pickup notice for this individual for police it likely would have had mention of his history of violence, his issues with mental health, and a warning to proceed with caution.

This is an individual that would be PRESUMED to be violent.  Presumed by virtue of his mental health issues, about which he had no desire to address (as evidenced by his eloping from court-ordered treatment after a mere 15 days or so).  Presumed by his past history of violence.  He wasn't some harmless nut who had delusions but was a harmless weirdo; he was violent, and he was manipulatively so.  He knew, from experience, that he could use a combination of manipulating with sympathy and threatening with overt threats and bizarre behavior to extort (and that's a fair word) money or items from law-abiding subway passengers who just wanted to be left alone and travel to work without being bullied or intimidated.

And this wasn't an isolated incident.  People are shoved onto train tracks for no good reason in NY's subways.  I am sure that the people in that subway car had experienced other incidents like this and it wasn't the first.  Incidents such as this are treated as acceptable risks by NY's leaders.  And if it were a mere beggar, that would be one thing.  But a person has every right to tell a beggar "No!" and not be accosted.  Jordan Neely wasn't a beggar; he was a person who verbally threatened others who would not respond to his demands.  "I don't care if I go to jail today!"  What possibly can this mean when a mentally ill Michael Jackson impersonator who knows he's a fugitive from justice and who has actively refused treatment.

Jordan Neely died because Daniel Penny was willing to protect innocent people from being systemically bullied, harassed, and threatened.  Now Jordan Neely died, and the incident that caused his death does need to be examined.  But there is little doubt that the other passengers in that subway car were justifiably frightened for their safety.  "Oh, he'll just push them!"  How much damage good shove from an unmitigated mental patient cause ordinary people who should not require extraordinary courage to use public transportation to get to work?  One of the passengers was a 66 year old woman; how gravely could she be injured by a good shove from an aggressive lunatic.

If we end up with a dystopian society of vigilantes, it will be due to the crowd that cheers for indictments through mob protests and intimidation, and the public officials who know better, but cave to the mob.  A society that will not protect the rights of the law-abiding and elevates the criminal to martyr through victimstance on a routine basis is a society that will not remain civilized for very long.  This is not taking a position on Daniel Penny, and a man (albeit a criminal) did die.  But the disregard for the RIGHT of the subway passengers to both BE safe and FEEL safe is nothing less than disgusting, and more than one poster here is guilty of that.