When did it become clear that Putin was worse than Yeltsin

[OSR stands with Israel]

When in his tenure would you say he became worse than Yeltsin . I would say with hindsight he was worse from day 1 but without hindsight it was this moment when it was clear he became worse was his Munich speech in 2007 when he fully rejected the post Cold War world .

[President Johnson]

Actually from the start, if we're being honest. He already oversaw the brutal war in Chechnya in 1999/2000 that was started after the FSB itsself blew up apartment buildings in Russia to justify the war. Putin also early started the murder political opponents that he increasingly viewed as a threat. He just played nice for a while towards foreign powers because Russia was extremely weak at the time.

[Antonio the Sixth]

In retrospect, it should have been obvious from the start, as Johnson said. But the moment where there was no excuse for failing to realize how dangerous he was was when he invaded Georgia in 2008. I was shocked at the time by how blasé European public opinion was about what was happening, and the fact that we didn't make Russia a pariah state right then and there was a fatal mistake that's the reason we ended up where we are now.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I would still disagree that Putin is worse than Yeltsin. Yeltsin's government's utter incompetence on all levels will make it hard for Putin to ever get worse than him.
The 1990s are still way worse of a place to be a Russian than 2023 Russia.

[ingemann]

24 February 2022.

I think it was pretty clear for everyone that Putin was a major problem for Russia when he got his third term as President, as we knew from that point that he would only leave Kremlin in a coffin or from a fall from a high window and it was clear that he would keep starting stupid conflicts, but I don’t really think people get how big a disaster Yeltsin was and how much Putin improved the lives of the average Russian in his first two terms, just by doing the bare minimum. As for Chechnya whatever people think about the Second Chechen War, the Chechen Republic was not something which any state could allow to survive on its territory, it was pretty much proto-ISIS.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Tell the Russians this.

[I’m not Stu]

When Russia's don't say gay law was passed?

[Mr. Smith]

Tell the Russians this.

When I can visit Georgia or Armenia (or The Stans like you), or get all the Visas and clearances to visit the prisons and gulags, I'll do just that.  For now, comments in 1420 and other such channels is best anyone to be done.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Tell the Russians this.

When I can visit Georgia or Armenia (or The Stans like you), or get all the Visas and clearances to visit the prisons and gulags, I'll do just that.  For now, comments in 1420 and other such channels is best anyone to be done.

No 'Stans yet brother Not sure when I'll get around to those. Anyway, expats can be a great source of infotmation but are of course a biased sample owing to the fact that thry chose to temporarily emigrate in response to their country's leadership. The one I spoke the most with was a liberal in her 40s, but even two pretty apolitical IT professionals born in the 1990s concurred with the statement, "If Putin had retired in 2008, he'd be a hero."

[smoltchanov]

With hindsight - from the beginning (though i really had some doubts even then - KGB rarely produces "liberal politicians"). Without (for me at least)  - since Beslan tragedy of September 1st 2004. It's after that, that all talk about "need for power vertical" began, and  gradual process of electing less and less people (including, for example, Senators), and appointing more and more - began..

[smoltchanov]

I would still disagree that Putin is worse than Yeltsin. Yeltsin's government's utter incompetence on all levels will make it hard for Putin to ever get worse than him.
The 1990s are still way worse of a place to be a Russian than 2023 Russia.

Economically - may be, though rather slightly. Most people in Russia were poor in 1990th and remain poor now. But there was freedom in Russia in 1990th, while there is none now. So, given choice i prefer 1990th... (and i lived in Russia most of BOTH periods)

[smoltchanov]

Tell the Russians this.

Tell that to me, and i will readily agree.... And i am Russian)))

[Sir Mohamed]

I agree with the others saying from the beginning. Anyone coming from within the ranks of the KGB/FSB should have raised alarm bells.

[smoltchanov]

Tell the Russians this.

When I can visit Georgia or Armenia (or The Stans like you), or get all the Visas and clearances to visit the prisons and gulags, I'll do just that.  For now, comments in 1420 and other such channels is best anyone to be done.

No 'Stans yet brother Not sure when I'll get around to those. Anyway, expats can be a great source of infotmation but are of course a biased sample owing to the fact that thry chose to temporarily emigrate in response to their country's leadership. The one I spoke the most with was a liberal in her 40s, but even two pretty apolitical IT professionals born in the 1990s concurred with the statement, "If Putin had retired in 2008, he'd be a hero."

In 2008 - may be. Economy was better in 2000th then now, there was more freedom (what's important for people like me), and - Putin himself was substantially less authoritarian in it's behavior then now. But NOW - despite permeating everything propaganda - i doubt. There always were some people in Russia who knew how to think, there are some even now.... Among my acquaintances he is not popular for sure)) But -i live in Moscow and spend a lot of time in Internet, plus - have at least working knowledge of English and good one of IT-technologies (IT specialist himself), so i am hardly typical....))))

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I would still disagree that Putin is worse than Yeltsin. Yeltsin's government's utter incompetence on all levels will make it hard for Putin to ever get worse than him.
The 1990s are still way worse of a place to be a Russian than 2023 Russia.

Economically - may be, though rather slightly. Most people in Russia were poor in 1990th and remain poor now. But there was freedom in Russia in 1990th, while there is none now. So, given choice i prefer 1990th... (and i lived in Russia most of BOTH periods)

Wasn't the "Mafiya" pretty out of control in 1990s Russia?

[smoltchanov]

I would still disagree that Putin is worse than Yeltsin. Yeltsin's government's utter incompetence on all levels will make it hard for Putin to ever get worse than him.
The 1990s are still way worse of a place to be a Russian than 2023 Russia.

Economically - may be, though rather slightly. Most people in Russia were poor in 1990th and remain poor now. But there was freedom in Russia in 1990th, while there is none now. So, given choice i prefer 1990th... (and i lived in Russia most of BOTH periods)

Wasn't the "Mafiya" pretty out of control in 1990s Russia?

It still is, but now it's called "government and it's officials". For plain person - no difference))))

[smoltchanov]

Tell the Russians this.

When I can visit Georgia or Armenia (or The Stans like you), or get all the Visas and clearances to visit the prisons and gulags, I'll do just that.  For now, comments in 1420 and other such channels is best anyone to be done.

No 'Stans yet brother Not sure when I'll get around to those. Anyway, expats can be a great source of infotmation but are of course a biased sample owing to the fact that thry chose to temporarily emigrate in response to their country's leadership. The one I spoke the most with was a liberal in her 40s, but even two pretty apolitical IT professionals born in the 1990s concurred with the statement, "If Putin had retired in 2008, he'd be a hero."

In 2008 - may be. Economy was better in 2000th then now, there was more freedom (what's important for people like me), and - Putin himself was substantially less authoritarian in it's behavior then now. But NOW - despite permeating everything propaganda - i doubt. There always were some people in Russia who knew how to think, there are some even now.... Among my acquaintances he is not popular for sure)) But -i live in Moscow and spend a lot of time in Internet, plus - have at least working knowledge of English and good one of IT-technologies (IT specialist himself), so i am hardly typical....))))

I was hoping to ask you what the general opinion of people around you is, though you seem to summarize it well. What do your/your colleagues' parents or hick cousins think? And on what basis do your friends oppose Putin or the war? Inconvenience, economics, social freedoms, or political rights?

A Russian friend of mine and his wife returned to Russia a bit ago after some time abroad following the mobilization. Has the domestic situation seemed to "stabilize" (such as is possible) and/or have fears of additional mobilizations subsided?

Well, naturally, the older generation, which lived most of their life in Soviet Union, is. generally, more conformist. Though, for example, my mother (who died not long ago) was less resolutely, then i, anti-government, but still was anti-government))) Among my 4 cousins - 2 are very strongly "anti", 1- "moderately anti", 1 (most religious) - "moderately pro". Interesting, that my male cousin (US citizen since 2003) is, probably, most pro-Putin of all us))).

Answer on your second question - depends.. For me - probably political rights, but for most - inconvenience and economics,

And on last question - no. Because war continues with no end in sight - rumors about possible next mobilization are widespread... Despite all "assurances" from government sources..

[darklordoftech]

2005 at the latest.

[All Along The Watchtower]

2020 onward, with the constitutional changes, the attempt on Navalny’s life and the brutal suppression of his movement and protests in general along with similar counter-revolutionary interventions in Belarus and Kazakhstan, and the criminally incompetent response to COVID (in fairness, this describes many works leaders), which was more of a non-response from Putin even as he retreated into isolation and seethed with resentment—the immediate context for which he launched all-out war against the whole of Ukraine.

Boris “literally shelled the Duma” Yeltsin was just a more incompetent and inebriated authoritarian compared to Putin. The 90s were a violent, unmitigated disaster for Russia and the vast majority of Russians. Just because the US had more influence within the country doesn’t make it good—and in fact, that’s a pretty big reason for why a lot of Russians have identified with Putin and his grievances!

[smoltchanov]

2020 onward, with the constitutional changes, the attempt on Navalny’s life and the brutal suppression of his movement and protests in general along with similar counter-revolutionary interventions in Belarus and Kazakhstan, and the criminally incompetent response to COVID (in fairness, this describes many works leaders), which was more of a non-response from Putin even as he retreated into isolation and seethed with resentment—the immediate context for which he launched all-out war against the whole of Ukraine.

Boris “literally shelled the Duma” Yeltsin was just a more incompetent and inebriated authoritarian compared to Putin. The 90s were a violent, unmitigated disaster for Russia and the vast majority of Russians. Just because the US had more influence within the country doesn’t make it good—and in fact, that’s a pretty big reason for why a lot of Russians have identified with Putin and his grievances!

"Boris literally shelled the Duma"? Yes. But - do you know what preceded it? Were you in Moscow then? Observed Makashov's armed thugs attack on Ostankino TV tower? Violent attack on Moscow mayor office, where people were wounded? And so on. Eltsyn was far from perfect - very far, but, compared with his opponents, he was the only choice possible. I still shudder imagining the gang of ultracommunists and ultranationalists (Makashov, Rutskoy, Khasbulatov) winning then ....

P.S. Almost every revolution is "a violent, unmitigated disaster" (English, French and even American were too in a lot of senses). Because it disrupts "normal order of things".... Nevertheless - sometimes, when other means are exhausted - it's necessary. 1990th were exactly such period in Russia. I will predict that, when 100 year since that event will pass, history will make a honest judgement of that events. Now it's simply too early....

[buritobr]

Vladmir Putin may be worse than Boris Yeltsin, but Boris Yeltsin had no comitment to peace and democracy. The war agaisnt Chechenia took place during his administration. And Yeltsin was responsable for the 1993 coup.

[Orser67]

I think his return to the presidency in 2012 is when he really started to distinguish himself as clearly worse than Yeltsin, with the 2014 annexation of Crimea being the first manifestation of that. As much as Russia deserves criticism for the 2008 invasion of Georgia, it feels to me somewhat more like a continuation of a lot of other stuff that Russia has done in the post-Soviet states (e.g. their ongoing support of breakaway regions like Transnistria and Abkhazia). I'm not super-familiar with Russian domestic politics, but afaik Putin has also stepped up culture war type of stuff a lot more in the last decade or so.

[Indy Texas]

Reminder that Putin was Yeltsin's choice to succeed him.

[Damocles]

2020 onward, with the constitutional changes, the attempt on Navalny’s life and the brutal suppression of his movement and protests in general along with similar counter-revolutionary interventions in Belarus and Kazakhstan, and the criminally incompetent response to COVID (in fairness, this describes many works leaders), which was more of a non-response from Putin even as he retreated into isolation and seethed with resentment—the immediate context for which he launched all-out war against the whole of Ukraine.

Boris “literally shelled the Duma” Yeltsin was just a more incompetent and inebriated authoritarian compared to Putin. The 90s were a violent, unmitigated disaster for Russia and the vast majority of Russians. Just because the US had more influence within the country doesn’t make it good—and in fact, that’s a pretty big reason for why a lot of Russians have identified with Putin and his grievances!

"Boris literally shelled the Duma"? Yes. But - do you know what preceded it? Were you in Moscow then? Observed Makashov's armed thugs attack on Ostankino TV tower? Violent attack on Moscow mayor office, where people were wounded? And so on. Eltsyn was far from perfect - very far, but, compared with his opponents, he was the only choice possible. I still shudder imagining the gang of ultracommunists and ultranationalists (Makashov, Rutskoy, Khasbulatov) winning then ....

P.S. Almost every revolution is "a violent, unmitigated disaster" (English, French and even American were too in a lot of senses). Because it disrupts "normal order of things".... Nevertheless - sometimes, when other means are exhausted - it's necessary. 1990th were exactly such period in Russia. I will predict that, when 100 year since that event will pass, history will make a honest judgement of that events. Now it's simply too early....

Yaaaaaa~... zhdu otvyeta... (guitar strumming)
Bol'sha nadezhd letu
Skoro~... konchitsya leta...
Eta~... (guitar strumming)

[smoltchanov]

Vladmir Putin may be worse than Boris Yeltsin, but Boris Yeltsin had no comitment to peace and democracy. The war agaisnt Chechenia took place during his administration. And Yeltsin was responsable for the 1993 coup.

He wasn't the only one responsible though... And only alternative to war in Chechnya was "let it go". Given - who were an opponents (Basaev, Hattab and their like) - it's not clear, that this "alternative" was in any way better. At least - from statesman point of view i wouldn't like to have such "neighbours" on "my" border..