Opinion of Xahar

[All Along The Watchtower]

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

Have you ever talked to Europeans? Not the ones who went to international school and go the US for college, but like the townies there? Even in my super-lefty uni for many Europeans, if you got them drunk enough and start a conversation on the romani...

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

you say that as if Europe isn't full of racist xenophobes.

This is rather tangential to the topic of this thread, but, no, I don’t think Europe is any more “full of racist xenophobes” than the United States is.

Does any country in Europe have virtually unrestricted jus soli citizenship and/or anything equivalent to the 1965 US Immigration and Nationality Act? 

As someone who lives in the SF Bay Area,  I recognize that most of the country is different, but then the US is a very large country with multiple large, distinct metropolitan and cultural centers, and these centers certainly play massive roles in our economy and overall culture. I dare say that the majority of Americans in these places are, if not outright supportive of more immigration and multiculturalism (which plenty are), at the very least tolerant of a level of national and cultural diversity that I’m really not sure is true of many Europeans.

This isn’t to absolve the US of racism, obviously; the experience of black Americans is more than enough to disprove any attempts to do that. But that’s not “racist xenophobia”—that’s just racism, period. And anti-black racism is certainly something that pervades the US in a way that is pretty much foreign (heh) to Europeans.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

We definitely had our falling-outs and we differ on many things (one incident led to me leaving the forum for a year and a half) but I appreciate his contributions to the forum. FF.

[Cassius]

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

Have you ever talked to Europeans? Not the ones who went to international school and go the US for college, but like the townies there? Even in my super-lefty uni for many Europeans, if you got them drunk enough and start a conversation on the romani...

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

you say that as if Europe isn't full of racist xenophobes.

This is rather tangential to the topic of this thread, but, no, I don’t think Europe is any more “full of racist xenophobes” than the United States is.

Does any country in Europe have virtually unrestricted jus soli citizenship and/or anything equivalent to the 1965 US Immigration and Nationality Act?  

As someone who lives in the SF Bay Area,  I recognize that most of the country is different, but then the US is a very large country with multiple large, distinct metropolitan and cultural centers, and these centers certainly play massive roles in our economy and overall culture. I dare say that the majority of Americans in these places are, if not outright supportive of more immigration and multiculturalism (which plenty are), at the very least tolerant of a level of national and cultural diversity that I’m really not sure is true of many Europeans.

This isn’t to absolve the US of racism, obviously; the experience of black Americans is more than enough to disprove any attempts to do that. But that’s not “racist xenophobia”—that’s just racism, period. And anti-black racism is certainly something that pervades the US in a way that is pretty much foreign (heh) to Europeans.

I don't think you'd find anything different attitude-wise in European cities with a comparable level of diversity (London, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin et al).

Anyway, how are we defining xenophobia? The United States has an extremely rich history of anti-immigration politics - it was after all the key issue that propelled Trump to the Republican nomination in 2016. It's true that the United States does have lax immigration laws relative to most European countries, but that's certainly not for lack of trying from opponents of immigration. Were it not for the fact that it would require a difficult-to-pass constitutional amendment to replace jus soli with jus sanguinis, then I imagine the United States could easily have abandoned the former at some point in the 20th century (as United Kingdom did as recently as 1983, although that only required an act of parliament).

[Continential]

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

Have you ever talked to Europeans? Not the ones who went to international school and go the US for college, but like the townies there? Even in my super-lefty uni for many Europeans, if you got them drunk enough and start a conversation on the romani...

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

you say that as if Europe isn't full of racist xenophobes.

This is rather tangential to the topic of this thread, but, no, I don’t think Europe is any more “full of racist xenophobes” than the United States is.

Americans of all types oppose a burqa ban^{1 2} in contrast to France where schools are encouraged to ban students from wearing a hijab, and in Germany where half of all German states ban teachers from wearing a hijab.

[Alcibiades]

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

Have you ever talked to Europeans? Not the ones who went to international school and go the US for college, but like the townies there? Even in my super-lefty uni for many Europeans, if you got them drunk enough and start a conversation on the romani...

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

you say that as if Europe isn't full of racist xenophobes.

This is rather tangential to the topic of this thread, but, no, I don’t think Europe is any more “full of racist xenophobes” than the United States is.

Does any country in Europe have virtually unrestricted jus soli citizenship and/or anything equivalent to the 1965 US Immigration and Nationality Act? 

As someone who lives in the SF Bay Area,  I recognize that most of the country is different, but then the US is a very large country with multiple large, distinct metropolitan and cultural centers, and these centers certainly play massive roles in our economy and overall culture. I dare say that the majority of Americans in these places are, if not outright supportive of more immigration and multiculturalism (which plenty are), at the very least tolerant of a level of national and cultural diversity that I’m really not sure is true of many Europeans.

This isn’t to absolve the US of racism, obviously; the experience of black Americans is more than enough to disprove any attempts to do that. But that’s not “racist xenophobia”—that’s just racism, period. And anti-black racism is certainly something that pervades the US in a way that is pretty much foreign (heh) to Europeans.

On the other hand, the US took in very few Syrian and Iraqi refugees compared to Europe, the second most recent successful American presidential campaign was centred to a large degree around virulent xenophobia and Islamophobia, and global values surveys show the citizens of several Western European countries to have noticeably more pro-immigration attitudes than Americans. I’d also point out that Europe contains the most liberal multinational immigration regime in the world, in the EU and EEA’s right to freedom of movement; I doubt Americans would take too kindly to a similar arrangement with Latin America, or even Canada.

I’m not saying that Europe is clearly less xenophobic than the US, but, equally, it doesn’t seem at all obvious to me that the opposite is true either. Your point about anti-black racism is of course well taken.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

Have you ever talked to Europeans? Not the ones who went to international school and go the US for college, but like the townies there? Even in my super-lefty uni for many Europeans, if you got them drunk enough and start a conversation on the romani...

Incredibly overrated, I mostly know him for silly takes like supporting the Conservatives in Canada or thinking Europe is full of racist xenophobes.

you say that as if Europe isn't full of racist xenophobes.

This is rather tangential to the topic of this thread, but, no, I don’t think Europe is any more “full of racist xenophobes” than the United States is.

Does any country in Europe have virtually unrestricted jus soli citizenship and/or anything equivalent to the 1965 US Immigration and Nationality Act? 

As someone who lives in the SF Bay Area,  I recognize that most of the country is different, but then the US is a very large country with multiple large, distinct metropolitan and cultural centers, and these centers certainly play massive roles in our economy and overall culture. I dare say that the majority of Americans in these places are, if not outright supportive of more immigration and multiculturalism (which plenty are), at the very least tolerant of a level of national and cultural diversity that I’m really not sure is true of many Europeans.

This isn’t to absolve the US of racism, obviously; the experience of black Americans is more than enough to disprove any attempts to do that. But that’s not “racist xenophobia”—that’s just racism, period. And anti-black racism is certainly something that pervades the US in a way that is pretty much foreign (heh) to Europeans.

On the other hand, the US took in very few Syrian and Iraqi refugees compared to Europe, the second most recent successful American presidential campaign was centred to a large degree around virulent xenophobia and Islamophobia, and global values surveys show the citizens of several Western European countries to have noticeably more pro-immigration attitudes than Americans. I’d also point out that Europe contains the most liberal multinational immigration regime in the world, in the EU and EEA’s right to freedom of movement; I doubt Americans would take too kindly to a similar arrangement with Latin America, or even Canada.

I’m not saying that Europe is clearly less xenophobic than the US, but, equally, it doesn’t seem at all obvious to me that the opposite is true either. Your point about anti-black racism is of course well taken.

Actually I bet most Americans would be totally fine with such a thing with Canada. It's actually the Canadians who would by and large not be happy.

[Bacon King]

I love Xahar

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Theocrat, FF.

[Bacon King]

I’m not saying that Europe is clearly less xenophobic than the US, but, equally, it doesn’t seem at all obvious to me that the opposite is true either.

The issue here is that "less xenophobic than the US" is a ridiculously low bar to clear

Europe has serious issues with bigotry and discrimination against minority groups, a fact that remains true regardless of what's happening on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. I'm speaking in generalizations here because we're talking about an entire continent but it's undeniably true that Europe has a xenophobia problem.

I feel like even among many liberal and leftist Europeans there's a sort of cognitive dissonance, where they can correctly identify America's problems with racism yet remain willfully blind to the problems within their own communities and nations (and often even leave their own internalized bigotry entitely unaddressed)

to be clear I'm not blaming you or anyone else here, I'm just saying the trend exists

[Sopranos Republican]

Big Time FF!

[All Along The Watchtower]

I’m not saying that Europe is clearly less xenophobic than the US, but, equally, it doesn’t seem at all obvious to me that the opposite is true either.

The issue here is that "less xenophobic than the US" is a ridiculously low bar to clear

Europe has serious issues with bigotry and discrimination against minority groups, a fact that remains true regardless of what's happening on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. I'm speaking in generalizations here because we're talking about an entire continent but it's undeniably true that Europe has a xenophobia problem.

I feel like even among many liberal and leftist Europeans there's a sort of cognitive dissonance, where they can correctly identify America's problems with racism yet remain willfully blind to the problems within their own communities and nations (and often even leave their own internalized bigotry entitely unaddressed)

to be clear I'm not blaming you or anyone else here, I'm just saying the trend exists

It’s ok to be racist or xenophobic if you say you just want to preserve your national culture. Better yet, just say that the real bigots are the immigrants who “refuse to assimilate” and retain their oppressive religious beliefs and practices. I’m joking, obviously.

And I don’t actually mean to single out Europeans, because having the privilege of growing up in the South Bay Area/Silicon Valley and having paid some attention to local politics, I am well aware of the fact that people from non-white/immigrant communities can cloak their own bigotries in liberal-sounding language and anti-racist appeals. To segue back into the subject of this thread, Xahar has written elsewhere about BJP supporters agitating about an alleged “increase in anti-Hindu hate crimes” in America (note the sleight of hand in specifying the religion, which a lot of white American liberals might not catch and simply unconsciously read “Hindu” as “Indian”—which is precisely the desired aim of BJP ideologues!). Having been to a Ro Khanna town hall meeting during which an elderly Indian man all but outright accused him of being a Pakistani stooge, can confirm, it’s a toxic ideology!

Anyway, yeah, Xahar is great.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

One key difference I've noted in the US and Europe's xenophobia is that at least at first many Republicans condemned Trump and his rhetoric and tried to distance from him even if they eventually sold out once he was nominated/President, while in Europe even many mainstream center-right parties use Trump-y style rhetoric or ally with such parties themselves. Merkel was an obvious exception which I think being the most prominent center-right European leader led to misconceptions that all were like her, but that is obviously not the case.

Now Euro center-right parties and leaders may not be as authoritarian or self-centered narcissistic as Trump is, but it's more about general culture instead of specific figures. Trump is a pretty special case.

[Property Representative of the Harold Holt Swimming Centre]

One key difference I've noted in the US and Europe's xenophobia is that at least at first many Republicans condemned Trump and his rhetoric and tried to distance from him even if they eventually sold out once he was nominated/President, while in Europe even many mainstream center-right parties use Trump-y style rhetoric or ally with such parties themselves. Merkel was an obvious exception which I think being the most prominent center-right European leader led to misconceptions that all were like her, but that is obviously not the case.

Now Euro center-right parties and leaders may not be as authoritarian or self-centered narcissistic as Trump is, but it's more about general culture instead of specific figures. Trump is a pretty special case.

There's an obvious practical reason for this.