NYT article about Phoenix business trying to survive surrounded by homeless encampment

[GeneralMacArthur]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/19/us/phoenix-businesses-homelessness.html#commentsContainer

Phoenix is evidently getting a taste of what we in Seattle/Portland/SF have had to deal with for more than a decade now.

The article is extremely well-written and engaging, very moving, I would highly recommend just reading the entire thing rather than having me post snippets.

That said, the story of the folks in this article is very familiar up here in Seattle, reminds me of what local businesses in SODO and Ballard have been going through for years.

This is quickly becoming one of those political issues, like abortion, where everyone has their rock-hard positions and enough defensive talking points to exhaust the other side and drown the conversation in a gish gallop, and appeals to emotion and the moral high ground take precedence over offering tractable solutions.

With that said it really does feel like there's a pretty sizable silent majority that would like compelled rehabilitation and asylum, designated facilities/campgrounds outside city limits, and aggressive police response to violent offenders, but the mistakes of the past are so baked into city governments that even voting for moderate Dems who propose these solutions (or Republicans) is insufficient to overcome the enormous bureaucratic and political obstacles that voters built to that very solution over the last 20 years.

[Wrong about 2024 Ghost]

SF Examiner has a non-paywalled version:

https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/national/a-sandwich-shop-a-tent-city-and-an-american-crisis/article_d7682456-5e05-5123-8bf2-65adf235fbd4.html

[Comrade Luanne Platter]

We don't even have decently funded voluntary services to help homeless people get back on their feet in most places, so the fact that your first instinct is to go to involuntary for everyone is telling. As is not a single mention of housing in your list of 'solutions' that includes an "aggressive police response". Ugh.

Yes, many of these people are going to need serious help because even if you didn't have mental issues before becoming homeless studies show it's very possible you'll develop them while homeless. Even bears need a cave to return to; being unhoused (without shelter) isn't natural for humans or pretty much any animal and constant stress warps the mind.

I have a lot of sympathy for the couple in the article; they seem like fine people in an unfortunate situation, but imagine life for the 1,100 people living in squalor.

Make the necessary funding available for EVERYONE to see a Doctor in some capacity, make the needed investments in community based mental health facilities which have been extremely effective where they have been well funded and then replace the "aggressive police response" with social workers and a robust affordable housing system.

All these things are possible; this crisis of homelessness, austerity for the poor with generous welfare for the rich and over-policed neighborhoods when social work is what's really needed is at the root of the issue. Homelessness is a manufactured choice we make.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

The biggest issues causing this are not related to homelessness directly. It’s a drug and mental health crisis. I don’t know enough about drug policy to be honest to feel comfortable making a suggestion, especially regarding the fentanyl crisis (which obviously needs to be addressed, but I defer to others on that one) For mental health, I do think Trump actually got a rare thing right when he said we should bring back institutions. Now granted they ought to be regulated and inspected regularly, but simply throwing vulnerable people into a society that cares little for them is not going to help. At the very least they need a chance of treatment and eventual rehabilitation into society.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

For housing I think it’s time we bring back boarding houses. Before you snap at me, understand that the alternative may well be literally people living in the streets due to a housing crisis.

I personally also would love the option of renting a bedroom for myself but everything else being communal for a lower price than an apartment.

[Bismarck]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

No, mental institutions should be for those who need them, not for the mentally stable but bad on their luck. An involuntary mental screening for involuntary admission I could get behind.

[Bismarck]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

No, mental institutions should be for those who need them, not for the mentally stable but bad on their luck. An involuntary mental screening for involuntary admission I could get behind.

Are there actually any significant number of people in this country homeless because they just got unlucky? That’s not to say that those with mental illness and drug addiction don’t deserve our love and sympathy as well but these types seem to make up the overwhelming majority of the unsheltered homeless.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

No, mental institutions should be for those who need them, not for the mentally stable but bad on their luck. An involuntary mental screening for involuntary admission I could get behind.

Are there actually any significant number of people in this country homeless because they just got unlucky? That’s not to say that those with mental illness and drug addiction don’t deserve our love and sympathy as well but these types seem to make up the overwhelming majority of the unsheltered homeless.

https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mentally-ill.html

The New York Times reported that in Berkeley, California, “on any given night there are 1,000 to 1,200 people sleeping on the streets. Half of them are deinstitutionalized mentally ill people. It’s like a mental ward on the streets.”

Mental illness is a major problem for unsheltered homeless people, but it isn't overwhelming.

[jojoju1998]

We don't even have decently funded voluntary services to help homeless people get back on their feet in most places, so the fact that your first instinct is to go to involuntary for everyone is telling. As is not a single mention of housing in your list of 'solutions' that includes an "aggressive police response". Ugh.

Yes, many of these people are going to need serious help because even if you didn't have mental issues before becoming homeless studies show it's very possible you'll develop them while homeless. Even bears need a cave to return to; being unhoused (without shelter) isn't natural for humans or pretty much any animal and constant stress warps the mind.

I have a lot of sympathy for the couple in the article; they seem like fine people in an unfortunate situation, but imagine life for the 1,100 people living in squalor.

Make the necessary funding available for EVERYONE to see a Doctor in some capacity, make the needed investments in community based mental health facilities which have been extremely effective where they have been well funded and then replace the "aggressive police response" with social workers and a robust affordable housing system.

All these things are possible; this crisis of homelessness, austerity for the poor with generous welfare for the rich and over-policed neighborhoods when social work is what's really needed is at the root of the issue. Homelessness is a manufactured choice we make.

Hot take : We do have funded programs.


Problem is where I live; these programs consistently refuse to work with the Police. The city and the county( That's where most of these programs are ), refuse to work with each other. For whatever reason. If a Police Officer at least in Roseville, finds a homeless person, well....

He's not going to have that county funded resource.

[Andrew Cuomo is a No Go]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

No, mental institutions should be for those who need them, not for the mentally stable but bad on their luck. An involuntary mental screening for involuntary admission I could get behind.

Are there actually any significant number of people in this country homeless because they just got unlucky? That’s not to say that those with mental illness and drug addiction don’t deserve our love and sympathy as well but these types seem to make up the overwhelming majority of the unsheltered homeless.

https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mentally-ill.html

The New York Times reported that in Berkeley, California, “on any given night there are 1,000 to 1,200 people sleeping on the streets. Half of them are deinstitutionalized mentally ill people. It’s like a mental ward on the streets.”

Mental illness is a major problem for unsheltered homeless people, but it isn't overwhelming.

Still, cutting the problem in half would be a great first step. People who are incapable of living on their own due to mental illness should be in institutions of some sort, at least until they are able to live independently again.

[GeneralMacArthur]

For housing I think it’s time we bring back boarding houses. Before you snap at me, understand that the alternative may well be literally people living in the streets due to a housing crisis.

I personally also would love the option of renting a bedroom for myself but everything else being communal for a lower price than an apartment.

We have this in Seattle, the company that does them is called "Apodments" and they're basically a college dorm setup.  You get 150-250 sqft, there's communal bathrooms/showers, and you have a little kitchenette and fridge.  They cost around $900/mo.

That price is much better than a lousy studio apartment, which in Seattle costs $1,200/mo.  But it's still going to be out of the price range of drug addicts who are so mentally ill that they will never be able to have a job.

Furthermore, if you take the people described in the article and put them in one of these Apodments, they'd probably destroy it, or burn it down, or have to be evicted because they keep threatening and harassing the other tenants.  This isn't a hypothetical -- Dow Constantine has spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying up discount hotels in King County and giving the rooms to homeless people to get them off the streets.  It hasn't worked.  The hotels have basically become miniature crime syndicates, infested with rats and filthy, everyone's doing drugs, people get shot and stabbed, one of them was burned down.

It's an entirely predictable result, because if you give a crazy, violent fentanyl addict an apartment, he'll just be a crazy, violent fentanyl addict surrounded by four walls and a taxpayer-funded kitchenette and bed.  Other cities have tried this strategy with similar results.

The example everyone likes to return to is Salt Lake City, which built tiny home villages and got most of its homeless off the streets.  Seattle has done this as well.  But the homeless living in the tiny home villages aren't the crazy, violent fentanyl addicts.  It's mostly lifestyle homeless, or people who are just chronically unemployable for various reasons, recovering addicts, people like that.  Salt Lake City doesn't have the kinds of problems that Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Vancouver, etc. are dealing with.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

No, mental institutions should be for those who need them, not for the mentally stable but bad on their luck. An involuntary mental screening for involuntary admission I could get behind.

Are there actually any significant number of people in this country homeless because they just got unlucky? That’s not to say that those with mental illness and drug addiction don’t deserve our love and sympathy as well but these types seem to make up the overwhelming majority of the unsheltered homeless.

The bay area has plenty of hard working people who can't afford housing.

[100% pro-choice no matter what]

Ever been to San Francisco for an extended period of time?

[GeneralMacArthur]

Ever been to San Francisco for an extended period of time?

Yes.  I actually didn't think it was as bad as Seattle.

Portland takes the cake.  Much worse than Seattle.

[Bismarck]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

No, mental institutions should be for those who need them, not for the mentally stable but bad on their luck. An involuntary mental screening for involuntary admission I could get behind.

Are there actually any significant number of people in this country homeless because they just got unlucky? That’s not to say that those with mental illness and drug addiction don’t deserve our love and sympathy as well but these types seem to make up the overwhelming majority of the unsheltered homeless.

The bay area has plenty of hard working people who can't afford housing.

I don’t doubt that but are these people the ones living in tents and using the street as their toilet?

[Del Tachi]

lol we don't have these problems in the South, except for progressive enclaves like Austin and Asheville

[Ferguson97]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

Least cartoonishly evil conservative policy plan

[TheReckoning]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

Least cartoonishly evil conservative policy plan

You can’t have these people on the streets. You just can’t.

[Ferguson97]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

Least cartoonishly evil conservative policy plan

You can’t have these people on the streets. You just can’t.

So build more housing.

[TheReckoning]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

Least cartoonishly evil conservative policy plan

You can’t have these people on the streets. You just can’t.

So build more housing.

There is plenty of housing in this country. Clearly, lack of housing isn’t the issue.

[GeneralMacArthur]

We need to reinvest in mental health institutions and all these people need to be given the option of involuntary treatment or jail. Anyone defending this status quo is a delusional hack who isnt fit to be dog catcher.

Least cartoonishly evil conservative policy plan

You can’t have these people on the streets. You just can’t.

So build more housing.

I'll go a step further and say you can't have these people in society, period.

Not in their current state.  They're a threat to everyone around them, have tremendous negative externalities on their environment, and will likely destroy any housing they're put into while making life miserable for their neighbors.

Seattle already has a tiny house program and the Low Income Housing Institute helping people who are capable of being helped by offer of shelter.  Those remaining on the street are the people who are incapable of being helped in this way.

[jojoju1998]

The biggest issues causing this are not related to homelessness directly. It’s a drug and mental health crisis. I don’t know enough about drug policy to be honest to feel comfortable making a suggestion, especially regarding the fentanyl crisis (which obviously needs to be addressed, but I defer to others on that one) For mental health, I do think Trump actually got a rare thing right when he said we should bring back institutions. Now granted they ought to be regulated and inspected regularly, but simply throwing vulnerable people into a society that cares little for them is not going to help. At the very least they need a chance of treatment and eventual rehabilitation into society.

I agree.


Arresting people is not the answer. Nor is, just throwing people into homes.

[Comrade Luanne Platter]

We don't even have decently funded voluntary services to help homeless people get back on their feet in most places, so the fact that your first instinct is to go to involuntary for everyone is telling. As is not a single mention of housing in your list of 'solutions' that includes an "aggressive police response". Ugh.

Yes, many of these people are going to need serious help because even if you didn't have mental issues before becoming homeless studies show it's very possible you'll develop them while homeless. Even bears need a cave to return to; being unhoused (without shelter) isn't natural for humans or pretty much any animal and constant stress warps the mind.

I have a lot of sympathy for the couple in the article; they seem like fine people in an unfortunate situation, but imagine life for the 1,100 people living in squalor.

Make the necessary funding available for EVERYONE to see a Doctor in some capacity, make the needed investments in community based mental health facilities which have been extremely effective where they have been well funded and then replace the "aggressive police response" with social workers and a robust affordable housing system.

All these things are possible; this crisis of homelessness, austerity for the poor with generous welfare for the rich and over-policed neighborhoods when social work is what's really needed is at the root of the issue. Homelessness is a manufactured choice we make.

Hot take : We do have funded programs.


Problem is where I live; these programs consistently refuse to work with the Police. The city and the county( That's where most of these programs are ), refuse to work with each other. For whatever reason. If a Police Officer at least in Roseville, finds a homeless person, well....

He's not going to have that county funded resource.

You'd have to expand on what exactly you mean, I tried to do some research myself and all I found was actually an article contradicting what you said albeit it's from 2017 so things may have possibly changed by now... But again, after multiple google searches with different terms that's all I could find.

California does have more resources than other states but to say we have 'funded programs' for either mental health or housing in this country is laughable and I can speak to both the first two firsthand as someone whose worked in community mental health, has seen grants get slashed and taken away over the last two years since Covid funding and not be replaced and seen waitlists of 5+ years for affordable housing in the dfw area for many 'clients'.

Ofc that's Texas, which is somewhat expected, but it's clear that not even the federal government is doing enough and now with a GOP congress that probably won't change absent some groundswell of overwhelming support to change those facts.

I'd imagine that a history of police brutality towards homeless encampments and police literally forcing homeless people into the desert and Republicans (and neoliberals, like the OP) cheering that on does hamper cooperation between police and homeless services... Cause Police shouldn't be involved in the first place absent cases /w a severely mentally unwell person or violence being involved.