More Students Are Turning Away From College and Toward Apprenticeships

[Arson Plus]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-students-are-turning-away-from-college-and-toward-apprenticeships-15f3a05d?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-wsj&utm_content=later-33800296&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkin.bio
https://archive.is/IAq0B

By Douglas Belkin | Photographs by Valerie Plesch for The Wall Street Journal
March 16, 2023 5:30 am ET

Last spring Dina Sosa Cruz sat with her parents and sister in the family’s living room and reviewed her options: a full academic ride to the University of the District of Columbia, or an apprenticeship in the insurance industry.

The college route meant at the end of four years the 22-year-old would have a degree, a little debt and no work experience. The apprenticeship would leave her with a two-year degree, money in the bank and training in a profession that appealed to her.

Her family was unanimous: Take the apprenticeship. “You’ll be worry free,” her mother said.

Family conversations like the one in Ms. Cruz’s living room are bubbling up around the country as high-school seniors recalibrate their options after the pandemic prompted a historic disengagement from school. The result has been the acceleration of a shift away from the nation’s half-century “college-for-all” model toward a choice of either college or vocational programs—including apprenticeships.

Today, colleges and universities enroll about 15 million undergraduate students, while companies employ about 800,000 apprentices. In the past decade, college enrollment has declined by about 15%, while the number of apprentices has increased by more than 50%, according to federal data and Robert Lerman, a labor economist at the Urban Institute and co-founder of Apprenticeships for America.

Apprenticeship programs are increasing in both number and variety. About 40% are now outside of construction trades, where most have traditionally been, Dr. Lerman said. Programs are expanding into white-collar industries such as banking, cybersecurity and consulting at companies including McDonald’s Corp. , Accenture PLC and JPMorgan Chase & Co.

[lfromnj]

I saw a graph a week ago. The majority of the cause of this decline was a drop in male enrollment.

[jojoju1998]

I will just point to Germany as a successful model of higher education where you have both a strong college system, and thriving apprenticeships.

[DaleCooper]

I've been suggesting for a while that colleges should require some sort of internship or work experience in order to graduate. Even if you work hard in a respectable job like customer service or food or construction all through college, that's not work experience that any of the corporate snobs and HR demons will respect when hiring you after you complete your degree. This is actually a situation where it isn't really the college students' faults. Employers are spoiled rotten now and pretty much all of them believe they're entitled to 5 years of relevant work experience when hiring for underpaid entry-level positions. Long gone are the days of bosses having the maturity to understand that all hiring is a risk and sometimes you just have to pick the guy who seems professional in the interview and hope for the best.

If colleges want to keep any kind value they're going to have to start forcing their students to actually acquire and get experience with marketable skills. Just sending them to class and giving them an A for effort isn't enough to prepare them for the job search. Even with apprenticeships and experience, most young people on the job market will have to "stretch the truth" to the point of absurdity just to convince those HR people to hire them for their first job out of school or apprenticeships.

[Suburbia]

An opening for Mike Rowe and Nick Cannon. They're gleeful right now

[หมูเด้ง]

There was once a point in time where lawyers were trained this way, too. Maybe this will lead to the regeneration of the union movement.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

I've been suggesting for a while that colleges should require some sort of internship or work experience in order to graduate. Even if you work hard in a respectable job like customer service or food or construction all through college, that's not work experience that any of the corporate snobs and HR demons will respect when hiring you after you complete your degree. This is actually a situation where it isn't really the college students' faults. Employers are spoiled rotten now and pretty much all of them believe they're entitled to 5 years of relevant work experience when hiring for underpaid entry-level positions. Long gone are the days of bosses having the maturity to understand that all hiring is a risk and sometimes you just have to pick the guy who seems professional in the interview and hope for the best.

If colleges want to keep any kind value they're going to have to start forcing their students to actually acquire and get experience with marketable skills. Just sending them to class and giving them an A for effort isn't enough to prepare them for the job search. Even with apprenticeships and experience, most young people on the job market will have to "stretch the truth" to the point of absurdity just to convince those HR people to hire them for their first job out of school or apprenticeships.

We all know. Everyone at my university is fighting for one, it’s competitive as f**k especially in DC. I agree with this in theory but in practice I worry this will just devalue internships and lead to companies demanding the next “experience” which disproportionately favors the wealthier children (like me) It does seem like a game of whack a mole that doesn’t end until something falls apart.

[Badger]

There was once a point in time where lawyers were trained this way, too. Maybe this will lead to the regeneration of the union movement.

It last night out in Wisconsin not all that terribly long ago. The protectionist side of me says that's a terrible idea, but the side of me that says law school taught me next to nothing outside of internships And my trial advocacy class of how to actually practice law in Ohio says it's probably not a bad idea.

Outside of the above mentioned exceptions, I learned more about Ohio law in a couple months of bar prep courses than I did in 3 years of law school.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I did my first two years of college, then took a year off to work an entry-level position in my chosen profession, and returned after that to finish.

This was like a cheat code.

First, that one year working a full-time professional job meant I had plenty of money when I came back to college -- for a student, anyway -- and no longer had that as a concern.  I could rent a comfortable apartment close to campus, buy a parking pass, got my car all fixed up, ate better, joined a gym, warm clothes for the winter, all things that led to better grades just because of a healthy, comfortable lifestyle and not having to waste time on stupid crap like scheduling your day around when the restaurants have specials or wasting an hour going to some seminar just to scrounge the free pizza.

Second, working in the industry gave me valuable experience and perspective when I came back.  I was able to use my experience in my classes, and focus my studies on what I knew would be most helpful when I finally entered the work force.

Third, having a year of experience on my resume gave me a huge boost in applying for internships.  I did another internship at a much more prestigious firm the following summer, and was able to leverage that to get a great offer when I graduated.  Also, with a full year of experience in the industry I was able to outclass the other interns and turn that opportunity into a great set of recommendations.

One of the best and most important decisions of my life and I would highly, highly recommend it.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

I did my first two years of college, then took a year off to work an entry-level position in my chosen profession, and returned after that to finish.

This was like a cheat code.

First, that one year working a full-time professional job meant I had plenty of money when I came back to college -- for a student, anyway -- and no longer had that as a concern.  I could rent a comfortable apartment close to campus, buy a parking pass, got my car all fixed up, ate better, joined a gym, warm clothes for the winter, all things that led to better grades just because of a healthy, comfortable lifestyle and not having to waste time on stupid crap like scheduling your day around when the restaurants have specials or wasting an hour going to some seminar just to scrounge the free pizza.

Second, working in the industry gave me valuable experience and perspective when I came back.  I was able to use my experience in my classes, and focus my studies on what I knew would be most helpful when I finally entered the work force.

Third, having a year of experience on my resume gave me a huge boost in applying for internships.  I did another internship at a much more prestigious firm the following summer, and was able to leverage that to get a great offer when I graduated.  Also, with a full year of experience in the industry I was able to outclass the other interns and turn that opportunity into a great set of recommendations.

One of the best and most important decisions of my life and I would highly, highly recommend it.

The question is how do you get that entry level position without any experience?

[DaleCooper]

I've been suggesting for a while that colleges should require some sort of internship or work experience in order to graduate. Even if you work hard in a respectable job like customer service or food or construction all through college, that's not work experience that any of the corporate snobs and HR demons will respect when hiring you after you complete your degree. This is actually a situation where it isn't really the college students' faults. Employers are spoiled rotten now and pretty much all of them believe they're entitled to 5 years of relevant work experience when hiring for underpaid entry-level positions. Long gone are the days of bosses having the maturity to understand that all hiring is a risk and sometimes you just have to pick the guy who seems professional in the interview and hope for the best.

If colleges want to keep any kind value they're going to have to start forcing their students to actually acquire and get experience with marketable skills. Just sending them to class and giving them an A for effort isn't enough to prepare them for the job search. Even with apprenticeships and experience, most young people on the job market will have to "stretch the truth" to the point of absurdity just to convince those HR people to hire them for their first job out of school or apprenticeships.

We all know. Everyone at my university is fighting for one, it’s competitive as f**k especially in DC. I agree with this in theory but in practice I worry this will just devalue internships and lead to companies demanding the next “experience” which disproportionately favors the wealthier children (like me) It does seem like a game of whak a mole that doesn’t end until something falls apart.

In my opinion one of the issues is that the colleges only care about "impressive" internships like ones in DC. Even just a year interning at a local bank doing something other than mopping the floors would put a recent graduate so much further ahead than they'd be if they tried to make the jump straight from stocking shelves to a skilled or semi-skilled job.

You're absolutely 100% right though that the employers will just go to the next unreasonable request. I've seen jobs that literally pay less than a shift supervisor would make at a restaurant or grocery store demanding several years of experience and certifications and weekend availability. It's absolutely insane and disgusting how entitled these corporate clowns have become and I don't know the answer to it.

I guess we're kind of seeing a solution present itself naturally in that these companies can't find anyone good to work for them. For all the talk of the bad economy, most companies are desperate for good workers but nobody with the high qualifications they're asking for would even bother to apply for such sh-t, low-paying positions so the only people they get are the ones that can smooth talk HR and convince them that they have more experience than they do. That's pretty easy to do since HR representatives are dumber than real people, but it's not fair for young job-seekers to have to be character actors just to make it into a job. Hopefully the employers will get desperate enough for good workers that they accept they can't ask the world without appropriate compensation. I still maintain that cutting about 90% of HR jobs across the board would help a lot because then at least we wouldn't have to deal with people whose full time job is to interview people. That's part of why the interview process is so grueling; the HR goons have to pretend they have 40 hours of work to do each week. There's a lot that can be done to fix this but I doubt any of it will happen.

[jojoju1998]

There was once a point in time where lawyers were trained this way, too. Maybe this will lead to the regeneration of the union movement.

It last night out in Wisconsin not all that terribly long ago. The protectionist side of me says that's a terrible idea, but the side of me that says law school taught me next to nothing outside of internships And my trial advocacy class of how to actually practice law in Ohio says it's probably not a bad idea.

Outside of the above mentioned exceptions, I learned more about Ohio law in a couple months of bar prep courses than I did in 3 years of law school.

You guys are finally realizing my whole point for the last few years regarding Higher Education in the US.

I'm not opposed to a College Education per se. But the way we do it in this country, is so... inefficient, and expensive.


Like why do you need a 4 year undergrad to get into Law School; while most other countries do law school as undergrad ? It's so BAD.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I did my first two years of college, then took a year off to work an entry-level position in my chosen profession, and returned after that to finish.

This was like a cheat code.

First, that one year working a full-time professional job meant I had plenty of money when I came back to college -- for a student, anyway -- and no longer had that as a concern.  I could rent a comfortable apartment close to campus, buy a parking pass, got my car all fixed up, ate better, joined a gym, warm clothes for the winter, all things that led to better grades just because of a healthy, comfortable lifestyle and not having to waste time on stupid crap like scheduling your day around when the restaurants have specials or wasting an hour going to some seminar just to scrounge the free pizza.

Second, working in the industry gave me valuable experience and perspective when I came back.  I was able to use my experience in my classes, and focus my studies on what I knew would be most helpful when I finally entered the work force.

Third, having a year of experience on my resume gave me a huge boost in applying for internships.  I did another internship at a much more prestigious firm the following summer, and was able to leverage that to get a great offer when I graduated.  Also, with a full year of experience in the industry I was able to outclass the other interns and turn that opportunity into a great set of recommendations.

One of the best and most important decisions of my life and I would highly, highly recommend it.

The question is how do you get that entry level position without any experience?

There was a program at the university that worked with local companies to arrange these kinds of positions for top students.  Admittedly this would be much more difficult if your university didn't provide such a program, or you weren't applicable for it.

[Democrats Hate Leftists More Than Predators]

Can confirm, took me ~5 years and a friend to find a job in my field. I don't blame people for this - with administrators squeezing every last cent out of students to line their pockets, colleges losing their way, and employers acting like entitled children, the professional world just sucks.

The current system doesn't prepare you for the real world at all. You either have to adapt like GMac did or die.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

Can confirm, took me ~5 years and a friend to find a job in my field. I don't blame people for this - with administrators squeezing every last cent out of students to line their pockets, colleges losing their way, and employers acting like entitled children, the professional world just sucks.

The current system doesn't prepare you for the real world at all. You either have to adapt like GMac did or die.

Welp, guess it’s death then.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I've been suggesting for a while that colleges should require some sort of internship or work experience in order to graduate. Even if you work hard in a respectable job like customer service or food or construction all through college, that's not work experience that any of the corporate snobs and HR demons will respect when hiring you after you complete your degree. This is actually a situation where it isn't really the college students' faults. Employers are spoiled rotten now and pretty much all of them believe they're entitled to 5 years of relevant work experience when hiring for underpaid entry-level positions. Long gone are the days of bosses having the maturity to understand that all hiring is a risk and sometimes you just have to pick the guy who seems professional in the interview and hope for the best.

If colleges want to keep any kind value they're going to have to start forcing their students to actually acquire and get experience with marketable skills. Just sending them to class and giving them an A for effort isn't enough to prepare them for the job search. Even with apprenticeships and experience, most young people on the job market will have to "stretch the truth" to the point of absurdity just to convince those HR people to hire them for their first job out of school or apprenticeships.

I don't know, man, this is a very 2010 to 2015 complaint. My company is more of a first adapter since undergrads and law students are our primary applicant pool, but even typical exit opportunities have significantly relaxed standards in the last 18 months and increased salaries to absurd levels

HR at my company simply just forwards any resume they receive to me to determine if it fits my requirements. Most companies are suffering from a severe dearth of applicants. In the past year, I rejected many candidates for being totally unqualified, only to be overridden by executive management because we need to increase headcount at all cost (and then two years in, they are still not capable of doing the work).

Historically, my criteria involved deprioritizing applicants whose job experience was as a golf caddy and giving major bonus points to anyone who did actually difficult jobs like in a restaurant or in manual labor. Unfortunately, even those resumes have become scarce so people are coming in with nary an employment experience to speak of.

In one of the worst cases three years back, I wanted to reject a candidate for a dozen highly racist tweets, and HR told me that this is not an acceptable reason to reject a candidate. Even after his poor interview, I received messages from three people asking me to change my hiring recommendation. Fortunately I identified a suitable alternative in time.

The job market right now is like at no point in anyone's memory. You need to exhibit no skills or work ethic to get an offer for close to six figures. Will it go on as the ex-construction sectors enter clear recession? I hope not at this pace.

On the contrary, the booming construction sector offers a great alternative to satisfy short-term mindsets, and we are only just exiting a period where the serious shortcomings of the education industry were put on full display. I think those are the clear causes for the present trends.

[DaleCooper]

I've been suggesting for a while that colleges should require some sort of internship or work experience in order to graduate. Even if you work hard in a respectable job like customer service or food or construction all through college, that's not work experience that any of the corporate snobs and HR demons will respect when hiring you after you complete your degree. This is actually a situation where it isn't really the college students' faults. Employers are spoiled rotten now and pretty much all of them believe they're entitled to 5 years of relevant work experience when hiring for underpaid entry-level positions. Long gone are the days of bosses having the maturity to understand that all hiring is a risk and sometimes you just have to pick the guy who seems professional in the interview and hope for the best.

If colleges want to keep any kind value they're going to have to start forcing their students to actually acquire and get experience with marketable skills. Just sending them to class and giving them an A for effort isn't enough to prepare them for the job search. Even with apprenticeships and experience, most young people on the job market will have to "stretch the truth" to the point of absurdity just to convince those HR people to hire them for their first job out of school or apprenticeships.

I don't know, man, this is a very 2010 to 2015 complaint. My company is more of a first adapter since undergrads and law students are our primary applicant pool, but even typical exit opportunities have significantly relaxed standards in the last 18 months and increased salaries to absurd levels

HR at my company simply just forwards any resume they receive to me to determine if it fits my requirements. Most companies are suffering from a severe dearth of applicants. In the past year, I rejected many candidates for being totally unqualified, only to be overridden by executive management because we need to increase headcount at all cost (and then two years in, they are still not capable of doing the work).

Historically, my criteria involved deprioritizing applicants whose job experience was as a golf caddy and giving major bonus points to anyone who did actually difficult jobs like in a restaurant or in manual labor. Unfortunately, even those resumes have become scarce so people are coming in with nary an employment experience to speak of.

In one of the worst cases three years back, I wanted to reject a candidate for a dozen highly racist tweets, and HR told me that this is not an acceptable reason to reject a candidate. Even after his poor interview, I received messages from three people asking me to change my hiring recommendation. Fortunately I identified a suitable alternative in time.

The job market right now is like at no point in anyone's memory. You need to exhibit no skills or work ethic to get an offer for close to six figures. Will it go on as the ex-construction sectors enter clear recession? I hope not at this pace.

On the contrary, the booming construction sector offers a great alternative to satisfy short-term mindsets, and we are only just exiting a period where the serious shortcomings of the education industry were put on full display. I think those are the clear causes for the present trends.

I'll concede that somehow even with all the wasted time and energy screening applicants, they still somehow manage to hire the most incompetent and useless people imaginable. As for the rest, I don't know what to say, maybe it's regional or varies by industry? I haven't had to look for a job in a while, thank god, but my experience with the process then was an absolute outrage and the experience of qualified people I know has been pretty bad in the years since too.

[Mr.Bakari-Sellers]

College is just like a HS Diploma everyone has one because it's based on Pell Grants like HS is free it's not based on Student loans like Grad School and Med School is and it's very difficult to maintain a B average in Grad School it's hard in Law school too there is an Essay and multiple choice it's not T or F and the multiple choice are logic related like Science related

[Zohranism is OUR future]

I've been suggesting for a while that colleges should require some sort of internship or work experience in order to graduate. Even if you work hard in a respectable job like customer service or food or construction all through college, that's not work experience that any of the corporate snobs and HR demons will respect when hiring you after you complete your degree. This is actually a situation where it isn't really the college students' faults. Employers are spoiled rotten now and pretty much all of them believe they're entitled to 5 years of relevant work experience when hiring for underpaid entry-level positions. Long gone are the days of bosses having the maturity to understand that all hiring is a risk and sometimes you just have to pick the guy who seems professional in the interview and hope for the best.

If colleges want to keep any kind value they're going to have to start forcing their students to actually acquire and get experience with marketable skills. Just sending them to class and giving them an A for effort isn't enough to prepare them for the job search. Even with apprenticeships and experience, most young people on the job market will have to "stretch the truth" to the point of absurdity just to convince those HR people to hire them for their first job out of school or apprenticeships.

I don't know, man, this is a very 2010 to 2015 complaint. My company is more of a first adapter since undergrads and law students are our primary applicant pool, but even typical exit opportunities have significantly relaxed standards in the last 18 months and increased salaries to absurd levels

HR at my company simply just forwards any resume they receive to me to determine if it fits my requirements. Most companies are suffering from a severe dearth of applicants. In the past year, I rejected many candidates for being totally unqualified, only to be overridden by executive management because we need to increase headcount at all cost (and then two years in, they are still not capable of doing the work).

Historically, my criteria involved deprioritizing applicants whose job experience was as a golf caddy and giving major bonus points to anyone who did actually difficult jobs like in a restaurant or in manual labor. Unfortunately, even those resumes have become scarce so people are coming in with nary an employment experience to speak of.

In one of the worst cases three years back, I wanted to reject a candidate for a dozen highly racist tweets, and HR told me that this is not an acceptable reason to reject a candidate. Even after his poor interview, I received messages from three people asking me to change my hiring recommendation. Fortunately I identified a suitable alternative in time.

The job market right now is like at no point in anyone's memory. You need to exhibit no skills or work ethic to get an offer for close to six figures. Will it go on as the ex-construction sectors enter clear recession? I hope not at this pace.

On the contrary, the booming construction sector offers a great alternative to satisfy short-term mindsets, and we are only just exiting a period where the serious shortcomings of the education industry were put on full display. I think those are the clear causes for the present trends.

It’s probably very contingent on market tbh.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I interview for the entire eastern seaboard. While the west coast is different now because of tech, we are bordering on a "work from anywhere in the country, we don't care" strategy. It may differ by industry but very much doubt market.

[หมูเด้ง]

There was once a point in time where lawyers were trained this way, too. Maybe this will lead to the regeneration of the union movement.

It last night out in Wisconsin not all that terribly long ago. The protectionist side of me says that's a terrible idea, but the side of me that says law school taught me next to nothing outside of internships And my trial advocacy class of how to actually practice law in Ohio says it's probably not a bad idea.

Outside of the above mentioned exceptions, I learned more about Ohio law in a couple months of bar prep courses than I did in 3 years of law school.

This is why all the Incels on lawschooldiscussion.org and especially on xoxohth are used to always say that unless you get at least a 165 on the LSAT and get into a competitive tier 1(top 50 USNews) and are competitive in your class or an “elite” law school (top 14), that law school was a waste of time unless you wanted to practice law in your neighborhood or for the feds. Which is true. I went to a school that had mostly B& B minus students and the biggest law firm that accept applications from our school had like 50 lawyers in it. That job went to the top student.

It ultimately means in law school, you’re not learning anything, you were just getting to know people. It’s basically a three-year long professional date.

Maybe there should only be a few dozen law schools, with the sole purpose of being a real “college” for professionals and students to congregate. Barring that, if you just want to practice dog bite law, be a cop,  or probate at your grandmother’s nursing home, any smart kid should just be able to take a job as an apprentice at a local lawyer’s office.

It’s pretty much what’s happening with less regulated white collar to elite professions. My current career pays structure is very similar to that of lawyers, and there are many senior members of this profession who only went to a boot camp and/or had extensive amateur experience.

Then again, most software engineers at major companies did get a degree in computer science and the industry is still heavily dependent upon academia. There is a difference between someone who’s writing websites and someone who’s trying to build a honest to God robot.

Law is the same, too. Some people just want to make sure Junior doesn’t go to jail for drinking and driving and knocking over a mailbox and other people are trying to get their boss an approval for a global vertical integration scheme.

[SInNYC]

This is not necessarily a bad thing if those students would have gone to college expecting courses to be vocational school.

This belief that everybody must go to college has led to many colleges being glorified vocational schools. Students not interested in real education plagiarize their way through STEM courses in college, might get an entry level job if they happened to memorize the right interview questions, and seldom have much of a career when they cant do anything they cant google for in their first job. And inevitably, they blame it on 'their college only taught useless theory, nothing useful'.

[หมูเด้ง]

This is not necessarily a bad thing if those students would have gone to college expecting courses to be vocational school.

This belief that everybody must go to college has led to many colleges being glorified vocational schools. Students not interested in real education plagiarize their way through STEM courses in college, might get an entry level job if they happened to memorize the right interview questions, and seldom have much of a career when they cant do anything they cant google for in their first job. And inevitably, they blame it on 'their college only taught useless theory, nothing useful'.

That was my experience at first. And though I now have a permanent position making roughly the average wage for experienced programmers, I feel it was an unnecessary struggle.