Wokies go full circle. Are trans men women?

[lfromnj]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/14/us/wellesley-college-trans-nonbinary.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Wellesley College proudly proclaims itself as a place for “women who will make a difference in the world.” It boasts a long line of celebrated alumnae, including Hillary Clinton, Madeleine Albright and Nora Ephron.

On Tuesday, its students will vote on a referendum that has divided the campus and goes straight to the issue of Wellesley’s identity as a women’s college.

The referendum, which is nonbinding, calls for opening admission to all nonbinary and transgender applicants, including trans men. Currently, the college allows admission to anyone who lives and consistently identifies as a woman.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

This happens at Smith sometimes, and until recent years didn't usually cause furor when it did as far as I know.

I've been to talks by Smith alumni who've advocated for a "literally anyone other than cis men" policy, but they tend not to make it sound very compelling.

[afleitch]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

Yeah, it sounds like that.

If the college already allows AMAB women, I fail to see why this policy change is that controversial.

[TheReckoning]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

This happens at Smith sometimes, and until recent years didn't usually cause furor when it did as far as I know.

I've been to talks by Smith alumni who've advocated for a "literally anyone other than cis men" policy, but they tend not to make it sound very compelling.

I mean, that basically implies that 1) these things are binary and 2) determined by biology.

[Ferguson97]

I don't see an issue with this. A Wellesley student who discovers that he is a trans man would not be forced to transfer to another school (the article mentions that there are already students who are openly trans men), and it does not make sense to have different requirements for applicants and students.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

This happens at Smith sometimes, and until recent years didn't usually cause furor when it did as far as I know.

I've been to talks by Smith alumni who've advocated for a "literally anyone other than cis men" policy, but they tend not to make it sound very compelling.

I mean, that basically implies that 1) these things are binary and 2) determined by biology.

Yes, that's part of why it often comes across as a position in search of a rationale.

[Sestak]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

I don't see an issue with this. A Wellesley student who discovers that he is a trans man would not be forced to transfer to another school (the article mentions that there are already students who are openly trans men), and it does not make sense to have different requirements for applicants and students.

I think in these sorts of cases the school (and, indeed, most women's schools) already allow students to remain. This policy seems to just be about admissions, which is a lot weirder. As GMac said, I can't imagine trans men actually wanting to attend a women's college in advance.

[Kamala-Tim 2024]

I don't see an issue with this. A Wellesley student who discovers that he is a trans man would not be forced to transfer to another school (the article mentions that there are already students who are openly trans men), and it does not make sense to have different requirements for applicants and students.

It makes total sense to not allow men of any sort to apply for admission to a women’s college, while allowing current students who come out or begin to identify as trans men to continue their studies.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

This reminds me of that now mostly discredited and obsolete term "womxn", which advocates argued was basically just an umbrella term for all non-cis males, which is a stupid thing to have in the first place and also some unfortunate implications for people who specifically don't want to be called "women" or lumped in with cis women. I remember once someone on Twitter being flat out asked if trans men fall under "womxn" as a category and they replayed with a flat yes. The term has all but gone away but the mindset persists.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

This reminds me of that now mostly discredited and obsolete term "womxn", which advocates argued was basically just an umbrella term for all non-cis males, which is a stupid thing to have in the first place and also some unfortunate implications for people who specifically don't want to be called "women" or lumped in with cis women. I remember once someone on Twitter being flat out asked if trans men fall under "womxn" as a category and they replayed with a flat yes. The term has all but gone away but the mindset persists.

An example of why someone using and liking the aesthetics of social justice does not mean they are actually progressive.

[Comrade Luanne Platter]

'Wokies' in the title purports that this thread is totally worth taking seriously.

Lol.

[HisGrace]

Don't really understand why a trans man would want to go to a women's college, but I can understand the motivation to not want to kick women out if they decide to start presenting as male or transition to male.  Someone deciding to transition while they're a student seems like the most likely scenario to ever trigger this condition.

I don't see an issue with this. A Wellesley student who discovers that he is a trans man would not be forced to transfer to another school (the article mentions that there are already students who are openly trans men), and it does not make sense to have different requirements for applicants and students.

I think in these sorts of cases the school (and, indeed, most women's schools) already allow students to remain. This policy seems to just be about admissions, which is a lot weirder. As GMac said, I can't imagine trans men actually wanting to attend a women's college in advance.

Yes, it very clearly says in the OP that the debated change is about new students, not already existing students who are transitioning. Red avs are just ignoring that and pretending it's something else to try and make it sound reasonable when it's not.

"Trans men are men!" unless you're applying to a women's college I guess......

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

This reminds me of that now mostly discredited and obsolete term "womxn", which advocates argued was basically just an umbrella term for all non-cis males, which is a stupid thing to have in the first place and also some unfortunate implications for people who specifically don't want to be called "women" or lumped in with cis women. I remember once someone on Twitter being flat out asked if trans men fall under "womxn" as a category and they replayed with a flat yes. The term has all but gone away but the mindset persists.

An example of why someone using and liking the aesthetics of social justice does not mean they are actually progressive.

And guess what, the inverse can also be true!

[DrScholl]

You can't open up registration to transgender students without including trans men if the language specifically states transgender. There might be some trans men who feel more comfortable attending a women's university based on feeling safe. It's interesting that a bunch of men are triggered about a student referendum at a women's university, but that's Atlas.

[Fascism Must Be Defeated]

I can't read the article due to the paywall but tbh although I'd firmly advocate for trans masculine students to be able to continue their studies, idk if it sends a great message to make application open to just trans male students.

There's sometimes a certain tension I think inside of trans-inclusive but very cis-centric forms of left-liberal feminism, which often conceptualizes the only people harmed by patriarchy as being women (or "non-men"). The fact that patriarchy harms men too is something that a lot of people of this persuasion believe on some level but don't seem to have internalized.

And of course there's your garden-variety erasure of trans people's identities there too.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

There might be some trans men who feel more comfortable attending a women's university based on feeling safe.

Dysphoria aside - there might be some cis men who feel this way, too. They're not allowed because the university believes they're men.

[soundchaser]

You can't open up registration to transgender students without including trans men if the language specifically states transgender. There might be some trans men who feel more comfortable attending a women's university based on feeling safe. It's interesting that a bunch of men are triggered about a student referendum at a women's university, but that's Atlas.

I don’t know that anyone is “triggered” by it (God, I am so tired of this word), but trying to parse out the complexities of it is interesting.

[lfromnj]

You can't open up registration to transgender students without including trans men if the language specifically states transgender. There might be some trans men who feel more comfortable attending a women's university based on feeling safe. It's interesting that a bunch of men are triggered about a student referendum at a women's university, but that's Atlas.

I don’t know that anyone is “triggered” by it (God, I am so tired of this word), but trying to parse out the complexities of it is interesting.

Yeah I'm not triggered and they can do what they want. Its just kinda funny to see the mental gymnastics over what is a woman . In the end it seems it is anyone not cis male.

[VBM]

Wokies hate men.

[DrScholl]

There might be some trans men who feel more comfortable attending a women's university based on feeling safe.

Dysphoria aside - there might be some cis men who feel this way, too. They're not allowed because the university believes they're men.

If any cisgender men feel that way there are universities like Sarah Lawrence and Vassar that are coeducational, but are majority women.

[VBM]

I don't see an issue with this. A Wellesley student who discovers that he is a trans man would not be forced to transfer to another school (the article mentions that there are already students who are openly trans men), and it does not make sense to have different requirements for applicants and students.

The OP specifies “admissions” though. So these hypothetical trans men in question aren’t even students yet 

[100% pro-choice no matter what]

No we shouldn't allow trans men to apply to women's schools. It's like, in the name. If you cross out "trans" from the sentence before nobody would care.

[DrScholl]

No we shouldn't allow trans men to apply to women's schools. It's like, in the name. If you cross out "trans" from the sentence before nobody would care.

Who is "we"? This is a private college. Unless you go to that college you can't use "we".

[Zohranism is OUR future]

No we shouldn't allow trans men to apply to women's schools. It's like, in the name. If you cross out "trans" from the sentence before nobody would care.

I’m pretty sure by your logic, trans men are women though…