The Great Greek Train Wreck.

[Meclazine for Israel]

It's amazing how humans catastrophise over 39 deaths in a similar vein to the deaths of 50,000 just to the south east.

Then in two weeks, the media don't want to know about it anymore. CNN sells catastrophe like hit songs.

R.I.P.

[Mike88]

Horrible tragedy. RIP for the victims.

I've read that the train station manager of Larissa, near the accident site, was arrested by the police and charges will be announced in the coming days.

The Station Manager was only 36 days into his job, it is said that he had been a book seller at the Department of Education before being appointed Station Manager in the run up to the Election.

However because an Election is due in the next few weeks or months, a lot of political driven rumours will fly and no one will know for sure.

The EU Commision had warned the Greek government about the condition of their railways and that cannot be hidden, but Italy will also be dragged into it.

The train station manager from Larissa, detained yesterday, has been accused by the Public Prosecutor or negligent murder and could face jail time up to 8 years or life imprisonment.

[oldtimer]

According to the Coroner the death toll has reached 57.

There are 10 bags full of body parts of still not recognised passengers.

[oldtimer]

There are still 56 missing.
If they are all dead then the death toll will reach 113, which will be the deadliest train disaster in Europe in 63 years.

In today's revelations the EU had provided 43 million euros to upgrade the warning systems by 2016 but nothing happened and the passenger train was also carrying commercial propane tanks but no one can find out why.

There is also growing anger and violent protests by student groups, 3/4 of the dead and missing are students under the age of 24.

[oldtimer]

The general election that was due to be declared tomorrow for April 9th, will be postponed until an unknown later date, probably to May 21st but it's very fluid.

On the political front it's a calm before the storm, due to the 3 day official mourning period.
All political parties and the biggest lawyers are busy collecting as much information and paperwork to publish and leak for the Sunday edition of the newspapers.

There is still silence from the Italian side, although they are in it up to their necks.

[oldtimer]

Greek media have also reported that the Railways Accidents Commision was unstaffed after the government had neglected to appoint replacements after the previous members 5 year term expired.

And something for environmentalists to chew on, there are allegations so far unsubstantiated that a specific bus company had paid bribes to deliberately downgrade rail services in order to increase road traffic.

So far all these leaks are just the preliminaries of the tsunami that might arrive when the Sunday newspaper editions are published.

[oldtimer]

The station manager was appointed to his post it seems only 5 days before, at a salary of 49k euros a year ( about 5 times the local minimum wage) through an exam that the main question was "can you count how many carriages are there on a train?" and he was the only one who applied for the job at Larissa Train Station, but who appointed him?

The local government MP Ms. Stella Mpiziou is already publicly protesting her innocence before anyone had even officialy accused her.

[oldtimer]

The Italian side of the issue is retaining it's silence.
 
I'm not really suprised since the person the Italian State Railways appointed to head the greek railways, Dario Lo Bosco, had been arrested for accepting bribes from the sicilian mafia in 2015.

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/2015/10/29/rfi-rail-company-chief-arrested-in-kickbacks-probe-2_361f5e86-fdbd-4a23-99e4-496279c42501.html

https://palermo.repubblica.it/cronaca/2015/10/29/news/tangenti_in_manette_il_presidente_di_rfi_dario_lo_bosco-126124838/

[LAKISYLVANIA]

I know someone online who lost 2 people she knew during the disaster: a high school friend and a high school bully of hers. She's been talking a lot to me about the train disaster and through this way I probably know quite a bit about the disaster now as well.

Incompetence is the right word for all of this. Belgium media reported that for every driven mile on the train, you're 8 times less likely to have a train collission than in Greece.

They bought safety systems and GPS in 2000 and still didn't implement it. Railway infrastructure was not modernized, was 20th century infrastructure and not 21st.

I'm saddened by the loss of many young lives.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

[oldtimer]

One of the 3 members of the Investigative Commission has resigned after the public outcry due to his conflict of interest, he was Chairman and CEO of the Greek Railways in the 2010-2015 period and he had to investigate himself.

The Prosecutor who has the case has not recused himself despite his own conflict of interest, regarding his own son who works at the private office of the now resigned Transport Minister and his close family relations to the Karamanlis family.

[oldtimer]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

[Mike88]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

I agree with you but I can't say for certain. I know Ferrovie dello Stato controls or owns shares in other rail companies all over the continent but some of them are small and were always private.

[ingemann]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

No, the Danish post service before it merged with the Swedish post service partly owned the Belgian post service.

[oldtimer]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

I agree with you but I can't say for certain. I know Ferrovie dello Stato controls or owns shares in other rail companies all over the continent but some of them are small and were always private.

In Britain railways are owned by multiple foreign state companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_franchising_in_Great_Britain

You got German, Japanese, Italian and until recently Dutch too.

Basically if one Government wants to get rid of a public service they tend to sell it to a better Government and hope for the best

That is very evident in Greece which has sold most services to foreign state companies, and has been highly satirized by greeks.
I could post the video on special request to have a laugh, but I doubt any of you would understand the language.

[Mike88]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

I agree with you but I can't say for certain. I know Ferrovie dello Stato controls or owns shares in other rail companies all over the continent but some of them are small and were always private.

In Britain railways are owned by multiple foreign state companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_franchising_in_Great_Britain

You got German, Japanese, Italian and until recently Dutch too.

Basically if one Government wants to get rid of a public service they tend to sell it to a better Government and hope for the best

That is very evident in Greece which has sold most services to foreign state companies, and has been highly satirized by greeks.
I could post the video on special request to have a laugh, but I doubt any of you would understand the language.

No, the Danish post service before it merged with the Swedish post service partly owned the Belgian post service.

Thanks for the info, Ingemann. Wasn't aware that the postal services in Denmark were merged with the Swedish one. But, just a follow up, the postal services in Denmark, Sweden and Belgium are 100% State owned, right?

I was surprised, because I wasn't aware that state owned companies in the EU were sold to other state owned from other EU countries. When we talk about banks and other private companies like airports, etc, sure, for example, the banking system in Portugal has a lot of Spanish influence, and we have the case of EDP, the main energy company in the country, that is partially owned by a Chinese State company, but they don't have the majority. But, state sell to other state buy inside the EU was surprising to hear about it.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

But, just a follow up, the postal services in Denmark, Sweden and Belgium are 100% State owned, right?

No, the postal service in Belgium is BPost which is for 50,01% owned by the state (so a majority owned by the state company). There are no other companies for postal services, though there are for delivery purposes (the thing that Amazon does, and what PostNL in Netherlands also does).

[LAKISYLVANIA]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

I agree with you but I can't say for certain. I know Ferrovie dello Stato controls or owns shares in other rail companies all over the continent but some of them are small and were always private.

In Britain railways are owned by multiple foreign state companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_franchising_in_Great_Britain

You got German, Japanese, Italian and until recently Dutch too.

Basically if one Government wants to get rid of a public service they tend to sell it to a better Government and hope for the best

That is very evident in Greece which has sold most services to foreign state companies, and has been highly satirized by greeks.
I could post the video on special request to have a laugh, but I doubt any of you would understand the language.

The biggest mystery in the entire universe to me is why people are alive that genuinely think privatization in particular of vital services like these is a good idea, esp. when it comes to safety, cost, public services, health, education etc.

I do not get that. I don't want to get it either.

[oldtimer]

While Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane only owns the trains and not the railway infrastructure, I am quite frustrated - no actually, embarrassed - that they are pretending to be completely extraneous to the fact.

Speaking of which, I am not even sure all of the trials for the 2009 Viareggio train derailment have ended yet. The scale of everything in this one (structural mismanagement and obscolence, direct human responsibility, death toll) seems so obviously worse, but Greek institutional failures also seem much worse, therefore I have low expectations about the aftermath.

They bought the Greek Railways for 45 million euros in 2017 in exchange for a 50 million euros annual government subsidy until the year 2036.

The actual privatization contract is a state secret and no one has seen or read it, probably not even the people who signed it.

The Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane affair is by itself a scandal ready to explode.

So the Greek government pays 50 million euros a year to the Italian government to have it run Greek trains? This would be so funny if it weren't so sad.

Doesn't that violate some kind of EU rule? I mean, a State run company buying another state run company in another member state seems a bit weird. If things are already "sketchy" when other foreign state owned companies, like several Chinese ones, buy state owned companies and there's suspicions of potential commercial irregularities, I assumed that within the EU things were different.

I agree with you but I can't say for certain. I know Ferrovie dello Stato controls or owns shares in other rail companies all over the continent but some of them are small and were always private.

In Britain railways are owned by multiple foreign state companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_franchising_in_Great_Britain

You got German, Japanese, Italian and until recently Dutch too.

Basically if one Government wants to get rid of a public service they tend to sell it to a better Government and hope for the best

That is very evident in Greece which has sold most services to foreign state companies, and has been highly satirized by greeks.
I could post the video on special request to have a laugh, but I doubt any of you would understand the language.

The biggest mystery in the entire universe to me is why people are alive that genuinely think privatization in particular of vital services like these is a good idea, esp. when it comes to safety, cost, public services, health, education etc.

I do not get that. I don't want to get it either.

It's "pass the parcel".

[oldtimer]

Some news from the Sunday newspaper editions.

1. 15 different contracts most in the 1995-2001 period, the contracts usually cancelled and new ones signed after a year or two, but this stuck out:

Alstom vs Bombardier

Both got cotracts to install new safety and communications equipment on different parts, because their systems where incompatible with each other (even though they merged in 2021) there were 2 contracts.

The 1st contract to install, the 2nd to uninstall the just installed systems.

2. The existence of a contractors cartel that froze the project between 2017-19.

3. Half the systems installed didn't work anyway, that lead to the resignation in protest in 2022 of the chairman of the greek ETCS.

4. Almost all greek railway workers are over the age of 55.

[oldtimer]

And to rub salt into this, the statement by the Station Manager in the prosecutor's office was delayed until late last night because the printer was broken.

Even in the future nothing works.

[oldtimer]

On top of all of this the Sunday newspapers also reported that the EU had already opened a criminal investigation in to greek railways last year and is still ongoing. They want to know where all the EU funds went.

The 3 member Investigative Commission has not started investigating because there is no legal framework for it's existence.

And the Greek government has refused to meet the delegation from the Civil Rights, Justice and Home Affairs commitee of the EU parliament, that's investigating allegations against the greek judiciary.

[Zinneke]

Greece and Spain are really given a free pass compared to Hungary and Poland (and indeed Western European mentalities towards Easterners in general). There's a total deep state inhabiting these political cultures and their disregard for maintaining basic European standards of good governance, self-introspection and cooperation with EU is damning.