Psychology Today: 63% of all US men 18-29 single, general sexual intimacy approaching 30-year low

[Ashley Graves > human pet guy]

Posted this in the wrong thread initially. Oops.

I think these posts by a trans man are probably important for some in this thread. Men have most of the advantages in society and its laughable to suggest otherwise, but they have problems too.

[Хahar 🤔]

The lowest rates of singlehood, amongst both men and women, are the next age bracket up; 30-49.

Stable relationships are clearly delayed; but there's likely economic as opposed to social factors in play.

Recently I saw an interesting set of charts:

https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status/1624438056336891906

I think there are a number of reasons you could come up with to explain this: it's harder to afford to live independently in your twenties than it used to be, young people are expected to have accomplished more life goals before pursuing long-term relationships, there's been a cultural shift in the last quarter-century away from the expectation of meeting your spouse in college, improved fertility treatments mean that the concept of the "biological clock" feels less urgent, and so on, but yes, the idea that men now are aliens devoid of normal desires or life goals just doesn't make sense. You can see in this thread how people are running with their ideas of a war between the sexes as if this were South Korea because they desperately want that to be true whether it is or not.

I think that people should be concerned about the social lives of young people being affected by the pandemic, but it's been disturbing how little actual sympathy I've seen anywhere. This has been true in the online spaces I frequent that trend to have older people, which is unsurprising even as it's disappointing, but even in a place like this one inhabited by young people you see precious little in the way of acknowledgement of how the last few years have affected everyone.

[BlueSwan]

Posted this in the wrong thread initially. Oops.

I think these posts by a trans man are probably important for some in this thread. Men have most of the advantages in society and its laughable to suggest otherwise, but they have problems too.

Very interesting read, thanks.

[Tintrlvr]

One thing not being talked about enough IMO is how within this age group, there are twice as many single men as women. I have a fleeting suspicion that a lot of 18-29 women are dating amongst themselves, which I only making it harder for men to date.

Or they’re dating older men.

Half of them? I don’t think half of 18-29 year old women in relationships are dating men 30+- at least, that doesn’t match what I’m seeing among people I know in that age group.

That needs to be broken down further. I wouldn't be surprised at all if over half of women between, say, 25 and 29 are in relationship with men aged 30+. 18-24 and 18-22 specifically will be lower than that, but still more young women date older men than the other way around for pretty obvious reasons.

This doesn't seem backed up by the partnered people I know IRL who're around my age, or the age distribution of my dating app matches. It's possible that the people I've matched who are my age or slightly older have been more likely to date men over 30, but I'm not really seeing age disparities of more than 4-5 years in my RL social network of people who grew up in the US. At my age I certainly wouldn't want to date anyone who's currently still in undergrad and barely old enough to buy booze.

Second Crumpets' and Ferguson97's most recent posts. A 30% disparity between genders seems more than a little sketch.

I would add to this on the other side (as a 34-year-old whose professional acquaintances are mostly straight men of the same age range) that I don't know any straight man in his 30s dating a woman under the age of 30. And these are super high-status straight men: very high-income lawyers and finance guys in New York City. If private equity bros in their 30s aren't dating 25-year-olds, who is?

I do think there could be a reporting bias here, as well as sex differences in perception of what it means to be "in a relationship" (perhaps straight women are more likely to say in a survey they are in a relationship after a date or two, while straight men won't say that in a survey until much later).

[😢]

You desperately need to take an anthropology or gender studies class at your local community college. To deny that sexism has been pervasive in all of human history is to deny reality. If anything, your worldview is the one that requires the same leaps and bounds in logic that QAnon style thinking does.

lol

That's hardly the only way to learn about discrimination.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Dale cooper is obviously being ridiculous in this thread but Ferguson responding with asking him to take a gender studies class is lol worthy

[🌹🇺🇦🇵🇸]

I do have to wonder how many of the people on this thread have female friends who are actively dating and actually are witness to a lot of the disrespectful, outright misogynistic crap that straight men think pass as 'flirting/dating' these days.

Yes, women can be unkind too ofc, but in my experience it's rarely as 'in your face' and targeted as some of the hustler culture BS that's worked its way into the minds of no small amount of men. And no, contrary to what some are saying, it isn't a purely online phenomena as my close female friends can all attest and I'm sure many women will confirm if asked.

There are good men out there, I have friends who are with men that are emotionally available, treat them as equals, who are willing to grow as humans with their partners, etc but there are also a sad amount of men who have bought into the 'woe is me, the modern male, and I shall take my angst at having to live in a society no longer curated for me out on others' bullcrap.

[Ferguson97]

Dale cooper is obviously being ridiculous in this thread but Ferguson responding with asking him to take a gender studies class is lol worthy

Considering how misogynistic most of Altas is, I think the majority of this site could benefit from it.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Dale cooper is obviously being ridiculous in this thread but Ferguson responding with asking him to take a gender studies class is lol worthy

Considering how misogynistic most of Altas is, I think the majority of this site could benefit from it.

You don’t need to take one of these nonsense courses to learn to treat everyone with respect . Anyway I agreed with much of your points on the whole “boys being boys” mentality should not be an excuse for bad behavior but I strongly disagree with you on courses like that being good .

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I do think there could be a reporting bias here, as well as sex differences in perception of what it means to be "in a relationship" (perhaps straight women are more likely to say in a survey they are in a relationship after a date or two, while straight men won't say that in a survey until much later).

This argument has shown up a couple of times in this thread, it's possible this explains some of the discrepancy (on the other hand it's also possible that the discrepancy goes the other way). But it's not super useful in this discussion unless there's a reason why this behavior would change differently between the genders over time. It does nothing to explain why we'd see relationship status in men declining over time.

[HillGoose]

they should get married, it is the way to be

[TheElectoralBoobyPrize]

It's revealing when leftists who point to structual forces as the causes of most inequalities in American society suddenly adopt a bootstrapping, individualist neoliberal approach to men's failures with dating.

Good point, but even going beyond left vs. right, I don't see why men who are successful at dating women feel the need to shame men who aren't, especially when many of the latter men are likely on the autism spectrum. It's no different than the rich ridiculing the poor, or the able-bodied disparaging the physically disabled.

Another thing I've noticed in this thread is Gen Z-bashing, but Millennial men were in the 18-29 age group not so long ago (the youngest ones are still in that age range) and they went through the same problem...it's just that the concept of "incel" wasn't nearly as mainstream.

Of course, the Incel explanation for this is that modern dating apps have convinced all women that they are beautiful and deserve only the men at the top end of the looks scale and hence only those men are selected and the rest are left behind.

While this is a problematic and over-simplified explanation, there is probably at least something to it along with a whole host of other factors already mentioned in this thread. Infact, Incel ideology by itself will make men lose hope and just go down a never ending spiral of misogyny, ensuring that they infact never get a relationship.

One thing I will concede about incels is they often resort to confirmation bias. They will seize on any evidence they can to say that young, attractive women only go for male models and millionaires, while ignoring any instances of average-looking, average-income men doing just fine with those women.

[Хahar 🤔]

I do have to wonder how many of the people on this thread have female friends who are actively dating and actually are witness to a lot of the disrespectful, outright misogynistic crap that straight men think pass as 'flirting/dating' these days.

Yes, women can be unkind too ofc, but in my experience it's rarely as 'in your face' and targeted as some of the hustler culture BS that's worked its way into the minds of no small amount of men. And no, contrary to what some are saying, it isn't a purely online phenomena as my close female friends can all attest and I'm sure many women will confirm if asked.

There are good men out there, I have friends who are with men that are emotionally available, treat them as equals, who are willing to grow as humans with their partners, etc but there are also a sad amount of men who have bought into the 'woe is me, the modern male, and I shall take my angst at having to live in a society no longer curated for me out on others' bullcrap.

Thanks for speaking on behalf of women.

[greenchili02]

It's revealing when leftists who point to structural forces as the causes of most inequalities in American society suddenly adopt a bootstrapping, individualist neoliberal approach to men's failures with dating.

It's sad how we can no longer have a real discussion about the effects of the various social movements which swept America in the past century. Anyone who offers the slightest bit of criticism is called a racist, sexist, homophobe, etc.. Any advancement of civil rights come with the exception that people must be responsible with those rights.

["Sniff" (D.O.B.: 03/25/1917)]

There is literally one cause of this and it's housing

[Rename L.A County to Schwarzengger County]

There is literally one cause of this and it's housing

So we're becoming China where we need to have an apartment or a house to even begin considering to date?
That totally won't end badly!

[Ferguson97]

There is literally one cause of this and it's housing

So we're becoming China where we need to have an apartment or a house to even begin considering to date?
That totally won't end badly!

Huh? What are you even talking about? I personally think that it’s reasonable to want a romantic partner to not be a homeless person.

[Kamala's side hoe]

There is literally one cause of this and it's housing

So we're becoming China where we need to have an apartment or a house to even begin considering to date?
That totally won't end badly!

Huh? What are you even talking about? I personally think that it’s reasonable to want a romantic partner to not be a homeless person.

In contemporary China, men are expected to own their own place to be eligible bachelors. This isn't something most 20 somethings in their US (or other Anglophone countries) are realistically going to be able to pull off for purely structural reasons, nor is it something most 18-29 year olds in a WEIRD society are going to be okay with.

[pikachu]

There is literally one cause of this and it's housing

So we're becoming China where we need to have an apartment or a house to even begin considering to date?
That totally won't end badly!

Just from a logistical perspective, adults living with their parents because of high housing costs leading to less sex makes sense. Ymmv and everyone’s family is different, but the idea of bringing some random girl from Tinder for a hookup at my parents’ house seems like the most awkward thing imaginable lol.

[Tintrlvr]

I do think there could be a reporting bias here, as well as sex differences in perception of what it means to be "in a relationship" (perhaps straight women are more likely to say in a survey they are in a relationship after a date or two, while straight men won't say that in a survey until much later).

This argument has shown up a couple of times in this thread, it's possible this explains some of the discrepancy (on the other hand it's also possible that the discrepancy goes the other way). But it's not super useful in this discussion unless there's a reason why this behavior would change differently between the genders over time. It does nothing to explain why we'd see relationship status in men declining over time.

Expansion of ambiguous relationships over time as getting married at 24 has become more and more unusual?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

There is literally one cause of this and it's housing

So we're becoming China where we need to have an apartment or a house to even begin considering to date?
That totally won't end badly!

Just from a logistical perspective, adults living with their parents because of high housing costs leading to less sex makes sense. Ymmv and everyone’s family is different, but the idea of bringing some random girl from Tinder for a hookup at my parents’ house seems like the most awkward thing imaginable lol.

Kids these days don't even know about Makeout Point.

[🌹🇺🇦🇵🇸]

I do think there could be a reporting bias here, as well as sex differences in perception of what it means to be "in a relationship" (perhaps straight women are more likely to say in a survey they are in a relationship after a date or two, while straight men won't say that in a survey until much later).

This argument has shown up a couple of times in this thread, it's possible this explains some of the discrepancy (on the other hand it's also possible that the discrepancy goes the other way). But it's not super useful in this discussion unless there's a reason why this behavior would change differently between the genders over time. It does nothing to explain why we'd see relationship status in men declining over time.

Expansion of ambiguous relationships over time as getting married at 24 has become more and more unusual?

24? My Mom got married at 18 and in my family you pretty much knew who you were going to marry by your late teens in most senses. In terms of this being a result of people getting married at a later age, then that's a good thing overall imo.

[omar04]

This until relatively recently was me. I thought I was pretty much doomed to be forever alone. Now I'm on the verge of being married.

I will say that at the end of the day, more than anything else, it comes down to putting yourself out there in my experience. I previously would just avoid risks rather than take them, just stick to the comfortable and familiar routines and say "woe is me" when I inevitably ended up getting the same results because of that. Then when I finally broke my habits and put myself out there, really dedicated myself to finding someone... it happened pretty quickly actually, much faster than I could have imagined.

At the end of the day, I can say this to young lonely single guys: Your condition might FEEL permanent, but that does not mean it IS permanent. There IS hope. For every one of you. Resist the illusion of hopelessness and actually take steps to change things and I assure you that EVENTUALLY you will find SOME success, even if it takes a lot of trial and error and effort, some painful and uncomfortable perhaps. It's just the way of things. It might be tempting to say things were easier for guys in the past. But in actuality, the internet has made it easier than EVER to find someone interested in us compared to years past; I met my hopefully soon-to-be wife on a dating app. You can too. It will actually help you filter out all the women who have no interest in you and avoid wasting time and effort, and allow you to focus your efforts on those you might have a prayer with. Not every lead will end up perfectly, nothing ever does really, but your odds are better than you think they are. You just have to know how to play the game!

A large number of men are in fact doomed due to skewed gender ratios, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-men/?utm_term=.16446268a240

[Ferguson97]

A large number of men are in fact doomed due to skewed gender ratios, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-men/?utm_term=.16446268a240

A clear cut example of how the patriarchy can harm men too. The One Child Policy could honestly single-handedly cripple China in the long-term.

[Mr. Smith]

Too many expectations and very few compliments given in comparison, this really oughtn't be a surprise.

If your general expected role is to be asked, you have less to do...more to avoid from askers, but far far less to do.


That said, the rise of asexuality probably plays some role as well.