Why are Republicans dovish on Russia but hawkish on China?
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  Why are Republicans dovish on Russia but hawkish on China?
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Author Topic: Why are Republicans dovish on Russia but hawkish on China?  (Read 1853 times)
Beet
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« on: February 19, 2023, 05:58:06 PM »

What is the logic behind this?
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Unpoisoned Chalice
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2023, 06:32:23 PM »

Overall their argument is that China is more capable militarily and economically than Russia and thus is the greater competitor. This in and of itself makes sense but what does not is Hawley's insistence that it is somehow impossible to simultaneously aid the defenses of Ukraine and Taiwan. The general dynamic seems to be politically driven. The Trump-Russia controversy and first impeachment contributed to this as well as a reflexive opposition to anything perceived as being a fashionable liberal cause. China being governed by the Communist Party is also a factor.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2023, 10:21:32 PM »

Russia became a partisan thing when they interfered in the election on behalf of Trump. I remember when Putin first acted in Crimea in 2014 it was the Republicans who were more hawkish and criticizing Obama for not reacting strongly enough.

From the other side of it, at least it's a good thing most the left finally realizes that Russia is run by bastards. The tankie crap would be so obnoxious right now otherwise.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2023, 07:58:16 AM »

I'm hawkish on both...
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Crumpets
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2023, 08:57:13 AM »

Hard to not see how ideology plays into it. Russia portrays itself as a traditional, conservative, religious state with a strong (white, male) leader - something that appeals to a lot of the GOP. China is obviously communist (at least in name if not always in practice) and not a European power. That's not to say there aren't some elements of China that Republicans don't admire, just that it's practically custom-built to be a conservative boogeyman in a way that Russia hasn't been since the days of the Cold War.

The interesting thing (to me, at least) is how this really isn't reflected across the aisle. Basically every remotely mainstream Democrat dislikes both Russia and China on "they're authoritarian" grounds pretty equally. Maybe Russia has overtaken China as the biggest bully since the Ukraine invasion, but even now, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Biden voter who speaks positively of the Chinese government. Are there people on the left who like Xi? Sure. But do they have anywhere near the level of influence as people on the right who like Putin? Absolutely not. And that's not me trying to get a jab in against Republicans (well, maybe a bit), but more just to ask why that is, when there's really no structural reason in the differences between the parties why one would be more inclined to look at foreign adversaries through a more ideological lens than the other.
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Frodo
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2023, 01:36:56 PM »

Russia became a partisan thing when they interfered in the election on behalf of Trump. I remember when Putin first acted in Crimea in 2014 it was the Republicans who were more hawkish and criticizing Obama for not reacting strongly enough.

From the other side of it, at least it's a good thing most the left finally realizes that Russia is run by bastards. The tankie crap would be so obnoxious right now otherwise.

Considering how the Republican Party switched their position on Russia on a dime after Donald Trump's nomination and election in 2016, it's obvious their previous opposition to Vladimir Putin was always only skin-deep. 
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2023, 02:09:02 PM »

Hard to not see how ideology plays into it. Russia portrays itself as a traditional, conservative, religious state with a strong (white, male) leader - something that appeals to a lot of the GOP. China is obviously communist (at least in name if not always in practice) and not a European power. That's not to say there aren't some elements of China that Republicans don't admire, just that it's practically custom-built to be a conservative boogeyman in a way that Russia hasn't been since the days of the Cold War.

The interesting thing (to me, at least) is how this really isn't reflected across the aisle. Basically every remotely mainstream Democrat dislikes both Russia and China on "they're authoritarian" grounds pretty equally. Maybe Russia has overtaken China as the biggest bully since the Ukraine invasion, but even now, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Biden voter who speaks positively of the Chinese government. Are there people on the left who like Xi? Sure. But do they have anywhere near the level of influence as people on the right who like Putin? Absolutely not. And that's not me trying to get a jab in against Republicans (well, maybe a bit), but more just to ask why that is, when there's really no structural reason in the differences between the parties why one would be more inclined to look at foreign adversaries through a more ideological lens than the other.

The intellectually lazy TL;DR of this is racism and white supremacy. Jabs at low-effort soundbite talking points aside, I would strongly argue that anti-China sentiment across the aisle would still be very much a thing even if the country remained (nominally) KMT-controlled.
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Vosem
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2023, 02:14:09 PM »

I don't know that Republicans are particularly "dovish" on Russia at all when you consider issue polling or the actual stances of GOP politicians. I guess I agree that they are less hawkish than Democrats, though.

I think the easiest explanation is a sort of reflexive hostility to actions taken by a Democratic administration? It was generally Republicans who opposed the Libyan intervention in 2011 as well, along with the Kosovo intervention in 1999. Yet mostly Democrats opposed the War in Iraq; opinions on foreign-policy issues are really only ever skin-deep. (Also, Biden family members having business interests in Ukraine -- something which has been part of the national discourse since the first Trump impeachment in 2019 -- sort of lends itself to conspiracy-theorizing around American aid given to Ukraine).

Hard to not see how ideology plays into it. Russia portrays itself as a traditional, conservative, religious state with a strong (white, male) leader - something that appeals to a lot of the GOP. China is obviously communist (at least in name if not always in practice) and not a European power. That's not to say there aren't some elements of China that Republicans don't admire, just that it's practically custom-built to be a conservative boogeyman in a way that Russia hasn't been since the days of the Cold War.

The interesting thing (to me, at least) is how this really isn't reflected across the aisle. Basically every remotely mainstream Democrat dislikes both Russia and China on "they're authoritarian" grounds pretty equally. Maybe Russia has overtaken China as the biggest bully since the Ukraine invasion, but even now, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Biden voter who speaks positively of the Chinese government. Are there people on the left who like Xi? Sure. But do they have anywhere near the level of influence as people on the right who like Putin? Absolutely not. And that's not me trying to get a jab in against Republicans (well, maybe a bit), but more just to ask why that is, when there's really no structural reason in the differences between the parties why one would be more inclined to look at foreign adversaries through a more ideological lens than the other.

The intellectually lazy TL;DR of this is racism and white supremacy. Jabs at low-effort soundbite talking points aside, I would strongly argue that anti-China sentiment across the aisle would still be very much a thing even if the country remained (nominally) KMT-controlled.

Yeah, I agree. Consider how bad anti-Japanese sentiment got in the late 1980s, when the country was a major US ally -- even a nominally KMT-controlled China probably wouldn't be as close to the US as postwar Japan.
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Blue3
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2023, 05:20:53 PM »

Because Putin is white, and macho in his PR.

Chinese PR makes them seem like polite geeks. And obviously not white.

And the GOP is currently dominated by those guys who pretended to be macho jocks in high school in the 60s-80s, and the girls attracted to those guys.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2023, 07:23:39 PM »
« Edited: February 20, 2023, 08:36:01 PM by Del Tachi »

Republican voters have never been pro-Putin or pro-Russia.  The liberal-leaning media has just tended to misrepresent conservative GOP foreign policy for many years now.

At the onset of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, most GOP voters said they disapproved of Biden's Ukraine policy in that he had not done enough to push back against Russian aggression.  While the number now saying the same has sharply declined, that can be attributed to the unprecedented $30B that the U.S. has spent on Ukraine's defense in the intervening 12 months.  The grassroots Republican belief that we should be paying more attention to our problems at home is anything but new and resonates as much with independents and very many Democrats.

These partisan arguments around Biden's response to Russia obscure the objective reality that Republicans and Democrats are now more closely aligned than ever before on opposing Russia. The gap between the share of Republicans and Democrats who view Russia "very unfavorably" is only 5 points.    

Ignorance of these facts suggests a broader problem with mainstream journalistic and academic takes on the GOP's foreign policy.  Most commentators take for granted that there is only one valid U.S. foreign policy position, namely the liberal internationalist approach.  Debate is permitted only between hawks and doves within this tradition, but there is no room for anyone from outside of it (which is how Republicans are now somehow both warmongers and isolationists, LOL.)  

Given the stubborn conservative affection for the notion that ours is an independent country, regardless of cosmopolitan dreams of global government, your typical GOP voter is not going to be picking from the menu of internationalist policy proposals as defined by liberals.  Our starting point just isn't a rules-based mulilateral world order.  Our starting point is America First.

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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2023, 07:37:52 AM »

Republican voters have never been pro-Putin or pro-Russia.  The liberal-leaning media has just tended to misrepresent conservative GOP foreign policy for many years now.

At the onset of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, most GOP voters said they disapproved of Biden's Ukraine policy in that he had not done enough to push back against Russian aggression.  While the number now saying the same has sharply declined, that can be attributed to the unprecedented $30B that the U.S. has spent on Ukraine's defense in the intervening 12 months.  The grassroots Republican belief that we should be paying more attention to our problems at home is anything but new and resonates as much with independents and very many Democrats.

These partisan arguments around Biden's response to Russia obscure the objective reality that Republicans and Democrats are now more closely aligned than ever before on opposing Russia. The gap between the share of Republicans and Democrats who view Russia "very unfavorably" is only 5 points.    

Ignorance of these facts suggests a broader problem with mainstream journalistic and academic takes on the GOP's foreign policy.  Most commentators take for granted that there is only one valid U.S. foreign policy position, namely the liberal internationalist approach.  Debate is permitted only between hawks and doves within this tradition, but there is no room for anyone from outside of it (which is how Republicans are now somehow both warmongers and isolationists, LOL.)  

Given the stubborn conservative affection for the notion that ours is an independent country, regardless of cosmopolitan dreams of global government, your typical GOP voter is not going to be picking from the menu of internationalist policy proposals as defined by liberals.  Our starting point just isn't a rules-based mulilateral world order.  Our starting point is America First.



Republicans are both warmongers and isoloations because they're a collection of people who can only think in binaries and extremes.

However, they also are guided by 'owning the libs' so they also get OUTRAGED! at Biden pulling out of Afghanistan, but also OUTRAGED! at Biden engaging in foreign policy multilateralism.

Republicans attacked Biden for both 'waiting too long' to shoot down the first balloon, but then for being 'trigger happy' for shooting down the next three balloons.

Republicans deserve to be considered incoherent on foreign/defense policy and a coalition of extremists, because they are incoherent on foreign/defense policy and a coalition of extremists.
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2023, 08:26:46 AM »
« Edited: February 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AM by Benjamin Frank »

Republican voters have never been pro-Putin or pro-Russia.  The liberal-leaning media has just tended to misrepresent conservative GOP foreign policy for many years now.

At the onset of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, most GOP voters said they disapproved of Biden's Ukraine policy in that he had not done enough to push back against Russian aggression.  While the number now saying the same has sharply declined, that can be attributed to the unprecedented $30B that the U.S. has spent on Ukraine's defense in the intervening 12 months.  The grassroots Republican belief that we should be paying more attention to our problems at home is anything but new and resonates as much with independents and very many Democrats.

These partisan arguments around Biden's response to Russia obscure the objective reality that Republicans and Democrats are now more closely aligned than ever before on opposing Russia. The gap between the share of Republicans and Democrats who view Russia "very unfavorably" is only 5 points.    

Ignorance of these facts suggests a broader problem with mainstream journalistic and academic takes on the GOP's foreign policy.  Most commentators take for granted that there is only one valid U.S. foreign policy position, namely the liberal internationalist approach.  Debate is permitted only between hawks and doves within this tradition, but there is no room for anyone from outside of it (which is how Republicans are now somehow both warmongers and isolationists, LOL.)  

Given the stubborn conservative affection for the notion that ours is an independent country, regardless of cosmopolitan dreams of global government, your typical GOP voter is not going to be picking from the menu of internationalist policy proposals as defined by liberals.  Our starting point just isn't a rules-based mulilateral world order.  Our starting point is America First.

If you're interested in looking at one piece of anecdotal evidence in your favor anway, George Noory, the right wing host of Coast to Coast Am, the conspiratorial program started by Art Bell, has had a number of Pro Putin guests on since 2010 or so. There was a love in with Putin by a slice of the right in the U.S who saw him as an alpha male in contrast to the 'metro sexual' President Obama.

This was especially the case with so-called 'paleoconservatives' like Alex Jones.

Noory's main pro Putin guest for a number of years though was the left wing professor Stephen F. Cohen, but especially since Cohen died, he's been trying to find others to fill the gap.

It seems one of the best Noory can do is Major Ed Dames, who claims to be an expert in 'remote viewing' (and who not only hasn't made any correct predictions since he first appeared on the show with Art Bell about 30 years ago) but who even moved to Ukraine believing it was one of the safest nations in the world.

Anyway, if you look at the comments on the program with Ed Dames (and Eisenhower and the aliens) there are maybe 40 comments from about 10 commenters responding to Dames' pro Putin misinformation, but only two of the commenters support Dames.

https://www.facebook.com/coasttocoastam/

In regards to knowing that it's disinformation. Dames claims that the Russians are only using bombs because the Ukrainians hide their tanks in buildings to use them against Russian soldiers. Except, there are no and never have been Russian soldiers in many of the Ukrainian cities bombed by Russia.

For what it's worth, I missed the Eisenhower and the aliens second half, but I know it's a common belief with many 'UFO researchers' that Eisenhower negotiated an agreement with alien civiliations that allowed for them to come here in secret (and abduct humans) while getting some technology in return.  
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2023, 02:15:30 PM »

The real answer is that they're just going to claim that whatever Biden is currently doing is wrong, regardless of what he's doing, and right now that requires their position to be "Biden is going to start World War III with Russia" and "Biden is going to let China take over the world", simultaneously.
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vivalavivek
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2023, 07:51:34 PM »

It's massively more important to the US protect Taiwan than Ukraine.
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Blue3
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2023, 12:36:28 AM »

It's massively more important to the US protect Taiwan than Ukraine.
why?
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lfromnj
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2023, 12:46:32 AM »
« Edited: February 22, 2023, 01:07:17 AM by lfromnj »

It's massively more important to the US protect Taiwan than Ukraine.
why?

Taiwan produces 90% of all semi conductors. Ukraine on the other hand doesn't do anything world critical. Even if it was conquered by Russia it wouldn't be an issue from the US perspective for its grain to be sold internationally. Obviously from a moral perspective it is horrible but Taiwan is much more important to protect.
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2023, 02:24:45 PM »

It's massively more important to the US protect Taiwan than Ukraine.
why?

Taiwan produces 90% of all semi conductors. Ukraine on the other hand doesn't do anything world critical. Even if it was conquered by Russia it wouldn't be an issue from the US perspective for its grain to be sold internationally. Obviously from a moral perspective it is horrible but Taiwan is much more important to protect.

It can be just as easily argued the other way. Semi conductors can be produced anywhere for pretty much the same cost, but grain can only be produced in certain regions.

The United States is bringing semi conductor manufacturing to the United States.

The concern is that Russia could weaponize grain shipments as they tried to do with gas shipments to Europe by withholding it. Russia would not necessarily use the grain to maximize their revenues.

However, the main goal of defending Ukraine isn't even necessarily to protect Ukraine but to achieve 'regime change' in Russia.

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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2023, 03:46:01 PM »

Hard to not see how ideology plays into it. Russia portrays itself as a traditional, conservative, religious state with a strong (white, male) leader - something that appeals to a lot of the GOP. China is obviously communist (at least in name if not always in practice) and not a European power. That's not to say there aren't some elements of China that Republicans don't admire, just that it's practically custom-built to be a conservative boogeyman in a way that Russia hasn't been since the days of the Cold War.

The interesting thing (to me, at least) is how this really isn't reflected across the aisle. Basically every remotely mainstream Democrat dislikes both Russia and China on "they're authoritarian" grounds pretty equally. Maybe Russia has overtaken China as the biggest bully since the Ukraine invasion, but even now, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Biden voter who speaks positively of the Chinese government. Are there people on the left who like Xi? Sure. But do they have anywhere near the level of influence as people on the right who like Putin? Absolutely not. And that's not me trying to get a jab in against Republicans (well, maybe a bit), but more just to ask why that is, when there's really no structural reason in the differences between the parties why one would be more inclined to look at foreign adversaries through a more ideological lens than the other.

The intellectually lazy TL;DR of this is racism and white supremacy. Jabs at low-effort soundbite talking points aside, I would strongly argue that anti-China sentiment across the aisle would still be very much a thing even if the country remained (nominally) KMT-controlled.

Yeah, I agree. Consider how bad anti-Japanese sentiment got in the late 1980s, when the country was a major US ally -- even a nominally KMT-controlled China probably wouldn't be as close to the US as postwar Japan.

Postwar Japan's alliance with the US is mostly due to the Cold War-era threat of international Communism. Its endurance past that era makes me think it's now more based on realpolitik and the nationalist impulses that shared civilizational roots with a rising, potentially militant superpower bring.

In any case the KMT probably would've remained fairly authoritarian and skeptical of Washington in a timeline where they defeated the CCP, so there might still be some sort of US-Japan alliance. Would be interesting to ponder what happens to semiconductor manufacturing in this scenario...
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2023, 06:08:57 PM »

Trump has Russian connections, and said mean things about China.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2023, 07:04:13 PM »

The Chinese look different.
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YoshiyaDayan
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2023, 11:54:44 AM »

Republicans like myself respect Russia more because of a few main reasons. First, Communist China has been taking over U.S economy through importing and unfair trade practice for around 20 years, they are the fastest rising military power on earth, they have more people and usuable land for industry, and therefore are a potential economic rival to the U.S. They are also atheist and Communist, killing Christians, Muslims, Bhuddist monks, and other religious groups. Russia, on the other hand, has not been Communist for 32 years and has a strong Religious Conservative leader. Russia is also weaker than China, but that does not play into Republican beliefs about the best foreign policy as muchas the fact that Russia has the biggest nuclear arsenal on earth and war with it would be terrible. Republicans also want to ally Russia  to USA to keep it from coming closer to China. Russia and China have not historically been great allies, but aggressive U.S sanctions and pressure on Ukraine to join NATO have pushed Russia towards a Sino-Russian Alliance that would have the greatest nuclear arsenal, strongest military, most natural resources (and no enviromentalists to stop them from using them), fastest growing economy, trade dominance over the U.S, and with very anti-American sentiment, that would also give Russia a path to the world market throught China. Lifting sanctions on Russia made them stop their growing freindship with China. China also has greater amibitions than Russia, hoping to control all of Southeast Asia, while Russia only wants what they had during the Cold War, which would actually not affect USA's goals as much as Chinese ambition does. Russia is only currently hostile to the U.S due to its unwavering support for Ukraine and opposition to Russian expansionism. Republicans are fine with Making Russia Great Again, as long as that keeps them away from and possibly even against China.

This is a quick summary, contact me at yoshiyadayan@gmail.com if you want more. I am 14 and I found out all of this, I think you can too.
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2023, 03:50:13 PM »

Republicans like myself respect Russia more because of a few main reasons. First, Communist China has been taking over U.S economy through importing and unfair trade practice for around 20 years, they are the fastest rising military power on earth, they have more people and usuable land for industry, and therefore are a potential economic rival to the U.S. They are also atheist and Communist, killing Christians, Muslims, Bhuddist monks, and other religious groups. Russia, on the other hand, has not been Communist for 32 years and has a strong Religious Conservative leader. Russia is also weaker than China, but that does not play into Republican beliefs about the best foreign policy as muchas the fact that Russia has the biggest nuclear arsenal on earth and war with it would be terrible. Republicans also want to ally Russia  to USA to keep it from coming closer to China. Russia and China have not historically been great allies, but aggressive U.S sanctions and pressure on Ukraine to join NATO have pushed Russia towards a Sino-Russian Alliance that would have the greatest nuclear arsenal, strongest military, most natural resources (and no enviromentalists to stop them from using them), fastest growing economy, trade dominance over the U.S, and with very anti-American sentiment, that would also give Russia a path to the world market throught China. Lifting sanctions on Russia made them stop their growing freindship with China. China also has greater amibitions than Russia, hoping to control all of Southeast Asia, while Russia only wants what they had during the Cold War, which would actually not affect USA's goals as much as Chinese ambition does. Russia is only currently hostile to the U.S due to its unwavering support for Ukraine and opposition to Russian expansionism. Republicans are fine with Making Russia Great Again, as long as that keeps them away from and possibly even against China.

This is a quick summary, contact me at yoshiyadayan@gmail.com if you want more. I am 14 and I found out all of this, I think you can too.

Lmao
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2023, 01:31:35 AM »

News flash Hockey is about Russian Hockey players Alex Ovechkin is an R and they play golf like baseball players and Tom Brady and Nascar dad's with Trump

China has minorities and they are just as blue collar as blks but the difference is they own restaurants and aren't in poverty like blks
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2023, 01:06:24 PM »

Because China is a Communist country and Russia is a corporatist one. Even still, few Republicans are pro-Russia (I think there are more tankies in terms of a percentage than Reps who support Putin) although a vocal minority are isolationist which some have labeled as pro-Russia. I think most Reps support Ukraine but don’t want to give Zelensky a blank cheque on everything.
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2023, 06:15:21 PM »


They feel threatened by China and not by Russia. Only one is perceived as real competition for the most powerful nation. Simple as that.

They recognize Russia is great power though, which is why strategically they think it’s really dumb and self-destructive to oppose Russia in a way that puts them completely aligned with China as we’re seeing with Ukraine war reaction from the US when Ukraine is not a strategically important country like say, Taiwan is. They see as misdirected warfare, not because of “we’re anti-war” narrative bullsh**t.

Republicans tend to be smarter and more cutthroat. They don’t care about morality behind stuff, more about their country interests as a priority.
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