Is the South seceding? And does the federal executive/legislative branches support it?

[Adam Griffin]

If I've misread, please clarify. From what I've seen thus far, though, that appears to be the case.

Can we get some clarification on this matter from those potentially involved?

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

The amendment does not remove the South from Atlasia automatically, it merely calls on Southern Legislators to begin negotiations with Nyman on the South's status within Atlasia. It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws. I think it's far too early to tell what the final outcome of this will be. Given the lack of energy many people seem to put in this game, it could end up just fizzling out and resulting in literally nothing.

As far as the positions of those of us not in the South, I think we're all kind of bewildered that it actually passed and figuring out what should happen next.

[Adam Griffin]

The amendment does not remove the South from Atlasia automatically, it merely calls on Southern Legislators to begin negotiations with Nyman on the South's status within Atlasia.

All or nothing, IMO: there are multiple boards on this forum in which to start one's own simulators and fiefdoms. We even saw such back in 2015! "If you don't like it then you can giiiiiiit ouuuuuut!"

It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws.

Not aimed at you, to be clear, but sorry: this is the only thing I can think of:

I think it's far too early to tell what the final outcome of this will be. Given the lack of energy many people seem to put in this game, it could end up just fizzling out and resulting in literally nothing.

I can tell you: "South America, 2015". A high percentage leave for the real game, with 10-15 Terminally Online geezers all TNF'ing massive scrolls of reform while nobody pays attention or cares. Not to disparage TNF, mind you: his legislation actually affected hundreds of players!

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

[Pericles]

The amendment does not remove the South from Atlasia automatically, it merely calls on Southern Legislators to begin negotiations with Nyman on the South's status within Atlasia. It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws. I think it's far too early to tell what the final outcome of this will be. Given the lack of energy many people seem to put in this game, it could end up just fizzling out and resulting in literally nothing.

As far as the positions of those of us not in the South, I think we're all kind of bewildered that it actually passed and figuring out what should happen next.

I strongly oppose giving them special status either within Atlasia or as a 'partnership' betwen countries. The federal government needs to take a stand here and make them accept they will lose the benefits of being in Atlasia if they leave.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

In any case, on a lighter note, if everything goes south (pun intended), the jokes write themselves. The South? Trying to secede? I mean come on...

[NewYorkExpress]

The amendment does not remove the South from Atlasia automatically, it merely calls on Southern Legislators to begin negotiations with Nyman on the South's status within Atlasia. It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws. I think it's far too early to tell what the final outcome of this will be. Given the lack of energy many people seem to put in this game, it could end up just fizzling out and resulting in literally nothing.

As far as the positions of those of us not in the South, I think we're all kind of bewildered that it actually passed and figuring out what should happen next.

I strongly oppose giving them special status either within Atlasia or as a 'partnership' betwen countries. The federal government needs to take a stand here and make them accept they will lose the benefits of being in Atlasia if they leave.

I won't speak for Weatherboy or Forumlurker, but I would likely ignore any secession attempt as long as I remain a member of the GM Team. As far as I am concerned, the South is, was and will be part of Atlasia.

[Saint Milei]

For the sake of the game, I think you guys should just allow a world where secession or at least the attempt happens lol. The southerners could just make their own thread, their own country, their own game, and do their own thing, ignoring the GMs, and make things worse imo. The game is dying. We seriously need to do something or it's pointless.

[Adam Griffin]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

The amendment does not remove the South from Atlasia automatically, it merely calls on Southern Legislators to begin negotiations with Nyman on the South's status within Atlasia. It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws. I think it's far too early to tell what the final outcome of this will be. Given the lack of energy many people seem to put in this game, it could end up just fizzling out and resulting in literally nothing.

As far as the positions of those of us not in the South, I think we're all kind of bewildered that it actually passed and figuring out what should happen next.

I strongly oppose giving them special status either within Atlasia or as a 'partnership' betwen countries. The federal government needs to take a stand here and make them accept they will lose the benefits of being in Atlasia if they leave.

I won't speak for Weatherboy or Forumlurker, but I would likely ignore any secession attempt as long as I remain a member of the GM Team. As far as I am concerned, the South is, was and will be part of Atlasia.

The right to regional secession is provided for in the federal constitution. If this does become a hard exit, it would seem rather silly to still be pretending the South is in Atlasia for GM purposes when in reality they're off in their own game and probably have their own GM to boot.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

Problem is, how much sway does Yankee actually have on his membership? Given that his party voted for secession despite him personally voting No, and that YT won despite a number of higher-up federalists backing a write-in candidate, it does not seem that the King is controlling the commoner.

[NewYorkExpress]

The amendment does not remove the South from Atlasia automatically, it merely calls on Southern Legislators to begin negotiations with Nyman on the South's status within Atlasia. It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws. I think it's far too early to tell what the final outcome of this will be. Given the lack of energy many people seem to put in this game, it could end up just fizzling out and resulting in literally nothing.

As far as the positions of those of us not in the South, I think we're all kind of bewildered that it actually passed and figuring out what should happen next.

I strongly oppose giving them special status either within Atlasia or as a 'partnership' betwen countries. The federal government needs to take a stand here and make them accept they will lose the benefits of being in Atlasia if they leave.

I won't speak for Weatherboy or Forumlurker, but I would likely ignore any secession attempt as long as I remain a member of the GM Team. As far as I am concerned, the South is, was and will be part of Atlasia.

The right to regional secession is provided for in the federal constitution. If this does become a hard exit, it would seem rather silly to still be pretending the South is in Atlasia for GM purposes when in reality they're off in their own game and probably have their own GM to boot.

It is. Let me rephrase. If this goes through, I will resign as a member of the GM team.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

I was assuming that since the Federalist Party is basically at least ordinarily unelectable without its Southern voters, there's no way the President would allow the South to leave. But I don't know Cao as well as I know Yankee, so...

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

Problem is, how much sway does Yankee actually have on his membership? Given that his party voted for secession despite him personally voting No, and that YT won despite a number of higher-up federalists backing a write-in candidate, it does not seem that the King is controlling the commoner.

The South voted for some unspecified "change", not secession, and these referenda were basically not debated much at all. To date, it's probably inaccurate to say the South consciously voted for secession.

[Adam Griffin]

Problem is, how much sway does Yankee actually have on his membership? Given that his party voted for secession despite him personally voting No, and that YT won despite a number of higher-up federalists backing a write-in candidate, it does not seem that the King is controlling the commoner.

Which is why we need clarification from our CiC. I'm quite confident where Yankee stands on the matter.

I was assuming that since the Federalist Party is basically at least ordinarily unelectable without its Southern voters, there's no way the President would allow the South to leave. But I don't know Cao as well as I know Yankee, so...

One would think...but even allowing "autonomy" sets what kind of precedent? What if another region doesn't want to pay taxes? What if another region wants to make beheading mandatory for jaywalking? There is no logical explanation for why you can give certain leeway to one region and not allow them for all.

In reality, you're either in or you're out: we've already had this debate years ago in terms of what flexibilities each region gets to enjoy. We've also already experienced what happens when a certain segment of players wants to experience their own environment. To them, I say this: frig off.

The only thing I can imagine is - in conjunction with the far-right's other recent, aggressive moves toward the federal government - is that they want to install a regional Electoral College where every region gets equal say but not equal contribution.

Ultimately (even under their ideal regional dreams), neither they nor I can see a scenario where this doesn't end up being 10-15 Mr R types residing there, with 5-7 of them debating about circumcising infants with crucifixes or whatever & falling into utter inactivity beyond the levels of what any federal or regional government has experienced thus far. Because that's what this will end up being in the end if allowed to occur.

[Adam Griffin]

To be clear in regard to TimTurner's question, I imagine many Southrons were innocently persuaded into voting for this. Between the obscure wording and the fact that more than a dozen questions (not to mention the "vote yes/no for all!" option) were included on the ballot, I doubt all that many not in the know even bothered to scour the full extent of what was being asked. Those in the know knew exactly what they were doing.

Truly a master-stroke of legislative genius, as only someone like myself would know  - assuming some inactive dullard like me didn't bring it up for debate after seeing it transpire!

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Problem is, how much sway does Yankee actually have on his membership? Given that his party voted for secession despite him personally voting No, and that YT won despite a number of higher-up federalists backing a write-in candidate, it does not seem that the King is controlling the commoner.

Which is why we need clarification from our CiC. I'm quite confident where Yankee stands on the matter.

I was assuming that since the Federalist Party is basically at least ordinarily unelectable without its Southern voters, there's no way the President would allow the South to leave. But I don't know Cao as well as I know Yankee, so...

One would think...but even allowing "autonomy" sets what kind of precedent? What if another region doesn't want to pay taxes? What if another region wants to make beheading mandatory for jaywalking? There is no logical explanation for why you can give certain leeway to one region and not allow them for all.

In reality, you're either in or you're out: we've already had this debate years ago in terms of what flexibilities each region gets to enjoy. We've also already experienced what happens when a certain segment of players wants to experience their own environment. To them, I say this: frig off.

The only thing I can imagine is - in conjunction with the far-right's other recent, aggressive moves toward the federal government - is that they want to install a regional Electoral College where every region gets equal say but not equal contribution.

Ultimately (even under their ideal regional dreams), neither they nor I can see a scenario where this doesn't end up being 10-15 Mr R types residing there, with 5-7 of them debating about circumcising infants with crucifixes or whatever & falling into utter inactivity beyond the levels of what any federal or regional government has experienced thus far. Because that's what this will end up being in the end if allowed to occur.

Your post reminded me of the autonomy Quebec has within Canada IRL.
Maybe something like that's what the end goal here is. It only really seems possible as a long-term status quo if the Senate votes for it and other regions tolerate it though.
Regarding people leaving...we already saw Weatherboy leave. That's the non-right-leaning share of the electorate going down another 2% or so. Every vote will count in a region that has always had political influence larger than its raw population would suggest.

[Adam Griffin]

Your post reminded me of the autonomy Quebec has within Canada IRL.
Maybe something like that's what the end goal here is. It only really seems possible as a long-term status quo if the Senate votes for it and other regions tolerate it though.
Regarding people leaving...we already saw Weatherboy leave. That's the non-right-leaning share of the electorate going down another 2% or so. Every vote will count in a region that has always had political influence larger than its raw population would suggest.

Irrespective of real-life examples, I can look at it cursorily for 5 minutes and tell what they're planning. I might be a has-been and not follow this closely day-to-day, but I have a decade of experience and know a scheme when I see it. It's a veritable coup they're engaging down there, Tim.

You've been a loyal office-holder in the South for what, 7+ years now? This is the first regional election you lost that I can recall. It's the beginning of a purge on their front. Once many realize what they're planning - and if they're allowed to get away with it - they will follow what WB has already done. You'll always have a home elsewhere. Perhaps it's time you move up a ladder into federal government - as much as I know you've always loved regional service, it's long overdue, anyway!

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Your post reminded me of the autonomy Quebec has within Canada IRL.
Maybe something like that's what the end goal here is. It only really seems possible as a long-term status quo if the Senate votes for it and other regions tolerate it though.
Regarding people leaving...we already saw Weatherboy leave. That's the non-right-leaning share of the electorate going down another 2% or so. Every vote will count in a region that has always had political influence larger than its raw population would suggest.

Irrespective of real-life examples, I can look at it cursorily for 5 minutes and tell what they're planning. I might be a has-been and not follow this closely day-to-day, but I have a decade of experience and know a scheme when I see it. It's a veritable coup they're engaging down there, Tim.

You've been a loyal office-holder in the South for what, 7+ years now? This is the first regional election you lost that I can recall. It's the beginning of a purge on their front. Once many realize what they're planning - and if they're allowed to get away with it - they will follow what WB has already done. You'll always have a home elsewhere. Perhaps it's time you move up a ladder into federal government - as much as I know you've always loved regional service, it's long overdue, anyway!

I've lost three Chamber elections (including this one) over the span of almost six full IRL years, one of which ended a period of which I was Dean of the Chamber for quite some time. The first two were quite close, in my recollection. This time, it was by almost three votes, not large, but still the biggest loss margin in my career. Both times this happened previously, I returned within two months (iirc) through appointment. This is, of course, the first time appointment is not a possible course of action, so there's that.
It is true that this defeat has created pathways that previously weren't open for me in my personal career. So there's that.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

It also leaves open the possibility of a "soft exit", under which the South could retain voting rights but be exempt from many federal laws.

If you're not affected by federal laws, you should not have federal voting rights. Britain doesn't have voting rights within the EU too after their "exit", regardless of it being "soft" or "hard". That's not how a soft exit works, especially if people from other regions didn't have a say on it.

I'm not exactly opposed to regions being able to be independent, but that wouldn't be good for the game given we have 150 registered people, and a lot of them don't actively participate. The numbers aren't simply there to have a right-wing dominated Atlasia game and a left wing dominated Atlasia game. It would also remove competition from the game, resulting in an Atlasia where the dominant left wing party always win an election, and an Atlasia where the dominant right wing party always win an election.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

I was assuming that since the Federalist Party is basically at least ordinarily unelectable without its Southern voters, there's no way the President would allow the South to leave. But I don't know Cao as well as I know Yankee, so...

It was pretty telling to see people like Yankee and WM voting nay on the 8th amendment. I feel like people are right when they say it hasn't been debated and that people tried to pass it without making much noise and without clarifying what it means or what they want to do.

[Pericles]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

I was assuming that since the Federalist Party is basically at least ordinarily unelectable without its Southern voters, there's no way the President would allow the South to leave. But I don't know Cao as well as I know Yankee, so...

It was pretty telling to see people like Yankee and WM voting nay on the 8th amendment. I feel like people are right when they say it hasn't been debated and that people tried to pass it without making much noise and without clarifying what it means or what they want to do.

I get the feeling there was a secret campaign for it in Conservacord but there was no debate on this board or even in the CoD which is nuts.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

One would think...but even allowing "autonomy" sets what kind of precedent? What if another region doesn't want to pay taxes? What if another region wants to make beheading mandatory for jaywalking? There is no logical explanation for why you can give certain leeway to one region and not allow them for all.

Greater autonomy in wanting to have "the privileges" of being in Atlasia but not wanting to share the burden or costs. It's why regions in a lot of different nations fight over each other, like Italy, Spain & notably (i should know) Belgium.

I have told before that i'm open to greater autonomy on social issues or clarifying what the task or authority of a region should be and what a federal authority should be. I'm open to bringing more social issues to the regions, even controversial ones. But it's something all people should say in, and that federally should be agreed on, not just something a one-sided self-declaration from said region.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

While this is uncharted territory and I cannot predict anything with complete certainty, I think I can confidently say Yankee and Cao both have huge incentives to make it be known at least privately that independence is off the table, and that greater autonomy is clearly something that the South's regional leadership can at least credibly claim a mandate of some kind for. But that does not mean that it will inevitably happen. Terra incognita, everyone!

I've been hearing whispers to the contrary with regard to our current President. Granted, it is hearsay and I cannot speak for him personally, so I welcome public forum clarification on the matter.

Yankee and I have been dueling for more than a decade, but we do have a core of commonalities and I feel confident in saying that the Past, Present and/or Future King of the Federalist Party would never endorse outright succession under any circumstances.

I was assuming that since the Federalist Party is basically at least ordinarily unelectable without its Southern voters, there's no way the President would allow the South to leave. But I don't know Cao as well as I know Yankee, so...

It was pretty telling to see people like Yankee and WM voting nay on the 8th amendment. I feel like people are right when they say it hasn't been debated and that people tried to pass it without making much noise and without clarifying what it means or what they want to do.

There might be a vague feeling of "more regionalism" in the air, at least down in the South. At least, there is a mobilized chunk of the political elite (keep in mind I use that term neutrally) in the region behind it. Combined with Discordification and the South being a rather quiet region politically allowing this to more easily go under the radar, that might explain why this passed. Yankee and the like are not in this group and voted Nay; the push for "greater regionalism" just doesn't resonate with them.

Personally, I felt this proposition served no real point and voted Nay likewise. I did not fear it because if 2022 is anything to go by, Nyman is not unwilling to act with decisiveness to keep the country together. In any case, if the basic structure is being tinkered with at the insistence of one player, then others naturally might chime in and demand something in return. Some kind of negotiations needs to happen, but it's up to Southern (and other) regional leaders, as well as leaders in Nyman, to shape it in their capacities as elected officials I suppose. All this referendum really gave a mandate for was negotiations.
Maybe this results in a substantially weaker federal government. That probably is not good for the game from a mechanics POV, because people might not want to run for less consequential federal office nearly as much and that weakens the game.
In the long-run, it seems inevitable some kind of give-and-take will happen if this actually ends up going anywhere.

[Adam Griffin]

One would think...but even allowing "autonomy" sets what kind of precedent? What if another region doesn't want to pay taxes? What if another region wants to make beheading mandatory for jaywalking? There is no logical explanation for why you can give certain leeway to one region and not allow them for all.

Greater autonomy in wanting to have "the privileges" of being in Atlasia but not wanting to share the burden or costs. It's why regions in a lot of different nations fight over each other, like Italy, Spain & notably (i should know) Belgium.

I have told before that i'm open to greater autonomy on social issues or clarifying what the task or authority of a region should be and what a federal authority should be. I'm open to bringing more social issues to the regions, even controversial ones. But it's something all people should say in, and that federally should be agreed on, not just something a one-sided self-declaration from said region.

I generally agree, but I also will say that unless either the federal legislative + executive branches have ruled on a matter (or two-thirds of the federal legislature + two-thirds of the regions subsequently vote similarly), virtually any matter is left to individual regions unless found unconstitutional by the courts. That is, unless I've missed some major constitutional or statue overhaul. It's not as if the Southern region has not been able to experiment greatly and deviate from the wishes of the national populace for many years on a variety of issues. Such was my greatest failure and compromise of the Constitutional Convention of 2015-16!

The only reason I can see why such renewed "autonomy" would be desired is to circumvent the aforementioned processes and secede from agreed-upon decision-making processes - in which case and if allowed, said supporters should be permanently barred from interfering with the rest of the nation's decisions.