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Author Topic: 🇬🇷 Greek politics and elections  (Read 32215 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2023, 09:41:17 AM »

Of course the term hasn't just dated for the immediately obvious reason, but because the parties that (according to the Twitter Left Big Brains who were very keen on pushing the narrative a decade ago) were supposed to ride in triumph as replacements have very much not done so.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2023, 10:06:52 AM »

Partly through their own mistakes and hubris, of course.

(and yes, you can also count Corbynism as a "new party" for these purposes)
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jaichind
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2023, 08:42:18 AM »

Looks like Golden Dawn splinter National Party – Greeks has been banned from running a list.
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oldtimer
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2023, 01:05:01 PM »

There has been a serious electoral development, the main center-left party SYRIZA is in internal crisis after the purge of it's most popular and vocal MP over his allegations that the greek judiciary is corrupt.

An own goal by Tsipras really, corruption in the greek judiciary is so widely perceived that has even been used internationally to refuse legal extraditions to Greece in some occasions.

By purging the MP who made those allegations he invites critisism that he himself is corrupt, just before an election.

However there is also the perception that he had no choice, after the government passed an amendment to the electoral law allowing it to ban political parties, opposition parties are now on their toes not to give a pretext to be banned.

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2023, 01:52:25 PM »

There has been a serious electoral development, the main center-left party SYRIZA is in internal crisis after the purge of it's most popular and vocal MP over his allegations that the greek judiciary is corrupt.

An own goal by Tsipras really, corruption in the greek judiciary is so widely perceived that has even been used internationally to refuse legal extraditions to Greece in some occasions.

By purging the MP who made those allegations he invites critisism that he himself is corrupt, just before an election.

However there is also the perception that he had no choice, after the government passed an amendment to the electoral law allowing it to ban political parties, opposition parties are now on their toes not to give a pretext to be banned.

That seems uh. A bit concerning. Is Mitsotakis trying to go full Orban?
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Estrella
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2023, 04:03:51 PM »

There has been a serious electoral development, the main center-left party SYRIZA is in internal crisis after the purge of it's most popular and vocal MP over his allegations that the greek judiciary is corrupt.

An own goal by Tsipras really, corruption in the greek judiciary is so widely perceived that has even been used internationally to refuse legal extraditions to Greece in some occasions.

By purging the MP who made those allegations he invites critisism that he himself is corrupt, just before an election.

However there is also the perception that he had no choice, after the government passed an amendment to the electoral law allowing it to ban political parties, opposition parties are now on their toes not to give a pretext to be banned.

That seems uh. A bit concerning. Is Mitsotakis trying to go full Orban?

Of course not. ND is a mainstream centre-right party, and Mitsoakis is on its liberal wing to boot: he supports EU membership for Macedonia and Albania, sent arms to Ukraine, passed a conversion therapy ban and so on. That's not to say Mitsoakis hasn't done some dodgy stuff on things like migration, but I think our Greek friend is getting a bit ahead of himself.

The actual law is this: Greece bans parties with convicted leaders from running in elections

Quote
Under the amendment, parties cannot run in elections if their "real leaders", not only their official representatives, have been convicted at any instance for crimes that carry a sentence of up to life imprisonment, ranging from treason or spying to participating in a criminal organisation.

Golden Dawn was notorious for being a literal criminal organization: their leader and 6 MPs are currently in prison for murder. I presume the same is true of their now banned splinter and it's cases like this the law was tailored to.
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Mike88
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« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2023, 05:35:47 PM »
« Edited: February 26, 2023, 05:47:03 PM by Mike88 »

The National Party – Greeks, which is the direct descendent of Golden Dawn, has been banned from running in the elections, under this new law.
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oldtimer
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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2023, 06:59:51 PM »

There has been a serious electoral development, the main center-left party SYRIZA is in internal crisis after the purge of it's most popular and vocal MP over his allegations that the greek judiciary is corrupt.

An own goal by Tsipras really, corruption in the greek judiciary is so widely perceived that has even been used internationally to refuse legal extraditions to Greece in some occasions.

By purging the MP who made those allegations he invites critisism that he himself is corrupt, just before an election.

However there is also the perception that he had no choice, after the government passed an amendment to the electoral law allowing it to ban political parties, opposition parties are now on their toes not to give a pretext to be banned.

That seems uh. A bit concerning. Is Mitsotakis trying to go full Orban?
He probably wishes.

I have never seen a greek government this desperate for re-election since 1989.

He has literally thrown the kitchen sink: another minimum wage increase (the 3rd in a year), pension increases, food ration coupons,  all in the last few weeks.

And of course the efforts to spy on the opposition, the new electoral law and the new amendment to it.
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oldtimer
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2023, 07:21:44 PM »
« Edited: February 26, 2023, 09:02:21 PM by oldtimer »

The National Party – Greeks, which is the direct descendent of Golden Dawn, has been banned from running in the elections, under this new law.
That is true.

He wanted to kick them out for 2 reasons:
1st. They where siphoning votes from him.
2nd. To lower the majority threshold under his new electoral law.

However the provisions of the amendment are so vague that all other opposition parties except PASOK saw it as a threat to ban them too in the future, and voted against the notion that the government by simple majority can have the power to ban parties.

I could also be more specific like you Mike88 on your Portugal thread, but there are so many allegations and scandals printed in the greek press that one becomes insensitive to them all.

The summary is that if those press allegations are accurate then Mitsotakis is the modern version of Caligula, but it's difficult to know what's true or not.

Especially after the arrest in Dec. 2021 of the Vice President of the Greek Supreme Court  who was a personal friend of the current Greek President, in the act of selling hard drugs to small boys in exchange for gay sex, the greek press got a big scalp as they where alleging it for quite some time.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1172990/senior-judge-charged-with-drugs-related-offencesdrugs/

Greek scandals are usually the best, the 1988-89 ones and 2005-09 ones where Hollywood material.
I can post the published details for historical research if you like but some might be for ages 18+ only, because they involve lots of sex and money in the most ridiculous circumstances.

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Mike88
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« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2023, 01:32:56 PM »

Feel free to share some details of those "stories". I would like to know some of them. Also, how is Tsipras viewed nowadays by public opinion? From what I'm aware he's a bit toxic and a problem for Syriza. If he loses this year, do you think he would resign from the leadership? And, do you think Syriza is now solid as a rock as the alternative party to ND?
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oldtimer
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2023, 02:52:49 PM »
« Edited: February 28, 2023, 08:17:49 PM by oldtimer »

Feel free to share some details of those "stories". I would like to know some of them. Also, how is Tsipras viewed nowadays by public opinion? From what I'm aware he's a bit toxic and a problem for Syriza. If he loses this year, do you think he would resign from the leadership? And, do you think Syriza is now solid as a rock as the alternative party to ND?
Tsipras has one big problem, he has already been PM for 4 years, he was tried and rejected by voters.

His public image is bad because he is perceived if I paraphrase:
"As a cynical unprincipled gambler who has no more regard for his friends than his enemies."

However he will probably remain leader of his party until he dies because he always purges anyone who outshines him, friend or foe, and parties in Greece are weak as long as leaders choose the lists.

And he will hope that one day the New Democrats are short of a majority and PASOK prefers them as coalition partners (it could have happened this year, but I don't think so anymore).

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).



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oldtimer
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2023, 03:48:16 PM »
« Edited: February 28, 2023, 04:08:09 PM by oldtimer »

As of historical greek scandals the oldest juicy one is the Koskota Scandal of 1987-89.

Here is the summary of a scandal filled with sex and money:
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.


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DavidB.
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2023, 05:39:31 PM »

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).
Could you please expound on this? Sounds fascinating.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2023, 05:40:52 PM »

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).
Could you please expound on this? Sounds fascinating.
Me as well.
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Mike88
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2023, 06:06:14 PM »
« Edited: February 28, 2023, 06:32:38 PM by Mike88 »

As of historical greek scandals the oldest juicy one is the Koskota Scandal of 1987-89.

Here is the summary of a scandal filled with sex and money:

Wow! I knew that Papandreou as a "Don Juan" and that his second wife was air Olympic flight attendant, with embarrassing situations. Here in Portugal, that was widely mocked because of the Greek bailout and then we had our own bailout, Roll Eyes anyway. One thing I found interesting was the Mitsotakis-Papandreou relationship. I think they were both from the same party before the military junta, but after that they parted in different paths and became leaders of their respective parties, PASOK and ND, almost at the same time. I assumed they were bitter enemies, but your assessment of Mitsotakis role in "protecting" Papandreou in the late 80's scandals was quite surprising.
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oldtimer
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2023, 07:10:15 PM »

An Act of God has just occured in Greece.

On the day that the opposition was reeling in internal strife and the government was ready to announce elections, 2 trains carrying 350 people collided head on at hight speed.

The greatest man-made tragedy in Greece since the Sinking of the Samina in 2000.

The Greek rail-network was always in a bad shape and deteriorated rapidly after the EU-IMF team demanded severe cuts in services and maintenance during the Bailouts (just look at a map of european railways to see how small it currently is).

Everyone was warning that a disaster was bound to happen, however SYRIZA was in charge of it's privatization to the Italian State Railways in 2017.
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oldtimer
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2023, 07:12:39 PM »

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).
Could you please expound on this? Sounds fascinating.
I basically expounded it in one of my earlier comments on Page 1.

I just used the term Anatolians rather than Asian Minors.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2023, 07:19:32 PM »

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).
Could you please expound on this? Sounds fascinating.
I basically expounded it in one of my earlier comments on Page 1.

I just used the term Anatolians rather than Asian Minors.
I read it with much interest, but was left with more questions. Where are these various groups located geographically in Greece, nowadays?
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oldtimer
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2023, 07:29:40 PM »

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).
Could you please expound on this? Sounds fascinating.
I basically expounded it in one of my earlier comments on Page 1.

I just used the term Anatolians rather than Asian Minors.
I read it with much interest, but was left with more questions. Where are these various groups located geographically in Greece, nowadays?
You can guess by looking at the greek election maps.

Those with Anatolian, Cretan, and Turkish heritage vote left.
Those with Old Greek, Italian, and Slavic heritage vote right.

But right now I'm preoccupied with the large tragedy that just occured.
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DL
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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2023, 12:50:44 PM »

Sounds like the current Greek government is getting raked over the coals over its handling of the tragic train crash disaster. I wonder what impact this could have on the election, if any
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oldtimer
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« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2023, 06:32:16 PM »

Sounds like the current Greek government is getting raked over the coals over its handling of the tragic train crash disaster. I wonder what impact this could have on the election, if any
The closer the election is to the disaster the bigger the impact.

All 3 main parties have governed lately and share the blame, so it probably won't be a straight move from the government to the mainstream opposition.

If this isn't the issue that breaks the camel''s back, and the election is in 2-3 months from now then it will be forgotten.

Before the disaster I was fully convinced that the ND would win on the basis of a divided, demoralized, and partly banned, opposition.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2023, 04:53:09 AM »

SYRIZA will always get at least 25% as long as Anatolian, Cretan and Turkish tribes think it represents their tribal economic interest (Politics in Greece is highly tribal).
Could you please expound on this? Sounds fascinating.

I don't get what he means by Anatolian tribes.
As for the other two, Crete has always been a bastion of center-left parties since the days of Eleftherios Venizelos, although Cretans themselves were never particularly progressive.
And the Muslims of Thrace might prefer SYRIZA's conciliatory tone towards Turkey but they are only a tiny slice of the electorate (1% or so). 
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Mike88
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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2023, 12:00:57 PM »

A question for our Greek posters:

One thing I found out about pre-2010 crisis Greek politics and elections was the amazing capacity of ND and PASOK of creating and managing spectacular and massive campaign rallies. I found the 1993 final rallies of ND and PASOK:






There are also videos from 1985, 1989, 2000 and 2009, with massive, massive rallies, specially Papandreou's 1985 ones. I have one question: the two parties had to bring a lot of people from all over the country to fill the streets of the main cities full of party supporters, right? The logistic operation had to be massive.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2023, 06:31:34 PM »

Back in the 80's and 90's there wasn't really any need to bus in supporters from all over Greece, especially in Athens. People lived and breathed politics and passions were high.
The next decades though, the rallies became increasingly smaller and they tried for some years to hide that fact by bringing in people from places as far as 300-400 km away.

Now they have pretty much abandoned these massive rallies and mostly do them indoors where very rarely attend more than 10-20 thousand people.
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Mike88
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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2023, 06:49:33 PM »
« Edited: March 09, 2023, 07:40:05 PM by Mike88 »

Back in the 80's and 90's there wasn't really any need to bus in supporters from all over Greece, especially in Athens. People lived and breathed politics and passions were high.
The next decades though, the rallies became increasingly smaller and they tried for some years to hide that fact by bringing in people from places as far as 300-400 km away.

Now they have pretty much abandoned these massive rallies and mostly do them indoors where very rarely attend more than 10-20 thousand people.

Still, that's quite impressive. Most western democracies already in the 90s didn't have parties with that kind of mobilization capacity. In my country, for example, I can only recall the 1987 and 1991 Cavaco Silva landslides in which people just filled the streets and squares to see the PM. Anyway, thanks for the reply. Smiley

Also, the first public poll after the tragic and deadly train disaster, last week, was published today:
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