Get ready for riots. Macron trying to increase pension age in France

[windjammer]

This doesn't concern me but I am opposed to this reform. There are too many health issues that are going to arise.

If spending cuts have to be made, I would prefer to lower the pensions for the wealthiest people in retirement.

[Former President tack50]

I guess there's no other way to keep social security solvent, along with other reforms? It's really interesting how work and protest culture differs from country to country. Macron is just trying to be a bit more like the rest of the Westen world.

Only other option I can think of involves (partial) privatization of Social Security, which would be a lot worse. Maybe such a system would look somewhat like the US, where from my understanding workers are expected to save up by themselves on tax advantaged accounts?

Either that or the Chilean system, which does not work in Chile apparently so...

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

The neoliberalism is strong with this thread (and of course now the fish will start telling me that "water" is a meaningless buzzword).

[CumbrianLefty]

Its an over-used term, but just like "fascism" it does have an actual proper meaning.

(and the people who claim, wrongly, that it is meaningless tend to be sympathisers - funny that)

[Zinneke]

Antonio has his academic salary paid in USD while swanning around Italy - it doesn't get more neo-liberal than that.

[Farmlands]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64309155

Well, 1 in every 5 flights in Orly Airport is cancelled today, 65 percent of primary teachers are on strike and public transportation is barely functioning. Though, I'm glad to see the French showing some restraint by allowing 1 in 10 railway services to still operate.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

[windjammer]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

This ^^

So many people are having disability issues when after 55-60 and let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.


I'm surprised by the level of support this measure drags on this "leftwing" forum

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

This ^^

So many people are having disability issues when after 55-60 and let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.


I'm surprised by the level of support this measure drags on this "leftwing" forum

French unions represent less of the population percentage wise than their American counterparts.

[Lord Halifax]

let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.

even when you're in your early 50s? Is France a very ageist society?

[windjammer]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

This ^^

So many people are having disability issues when after 55-60 and let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.


I'm surprised by the level of support this measure drags on this "leftwing" forum

French unions represent less of the population percentage wise than their American counterparts.

Well I personally don't Care about the unions. They are not powerful at all

[windjammer]

let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.

even when you're in your early 50s? Is France a very ageist society?

More After 55's I guess

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It is important to remember that there are major differences between pension systems in different countries. In Britain the State Pension is a universal benefit paid at a flat rate to everyone over sixty six whether retired or not who has worked for a certain number of years, and at a slightly lower rate to people over that age with a patchier work history. The idea is to top up any other pension or savings the worker in question has acquired, with the aim of avoiding the 'poverty trap' in old age. Consequentially, while there have been some rumbling controversies relating to pensionable age (largely the decision to have the same age for both Men and Women: it used to be sixty five for the former and sixty for the latter) but there's no obvious reason for the age issue itself to be totemic. Now in France, things work very differently: if the British set-up is reflective of a liberal heritage, widespread trade union membership and a tradition (declining but not extinct) of paternalistic employers, the French set-up is reflective of the sort of conservative Corporatism that has a powerful logic behind it when there is little trust between employers and employees but in which strong institutions established by the latter have never really been a thing.* Firstly, there is an actual contributory pension system rather than a universal benefit funded purely by various forms of taxation. And secondly the numbers involved are rather higher. This means that the age issue has a lot more obvious importance in France and adjustments to it are a lot more sensitive: as a worker, your actual money has gone into this directly! I make no comment on the changes Macron has proposed or the social protests against them as I've not looked up the details and pension issues can be mind-mashing at the best of times, but this is an important point to get across.

_{*Both systems, by the way, do what they're supposed to very well.}

[CumbrianLefty]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

This ^^

So many people are having disability issues when after 55-60 and let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.


I'm surprised by the level of support this measure drags on this "leftwing" forum

French unions represent less of the population percentage wise than their American counterparts.

And given how marginalised unions are in the US, that is pretty remarkable really.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And given how marginalised unions are in the US, that is pretty remarkable really.

The two countries have a surprising amount in common in terms of labour history. The big differences occurred when the French state eventually chose to respond to the problems caused by the weakness of  French trade unions with corporatist state intervention, while things moved rather in the opposite direction in the USA.

[Former President tack50]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

This ^^

So many people are having disability issues when after 55-60 and let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.


I'm surprised by the level of support this measure drags on this "leftwing" forum

Does France not have disability pensions? (Which are completely separate from old age pensions)

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Glad to see French people know better than a bunch of self-proclaimed "populists" and red/green avatars online who talk a big game about being pro-worker except when it actually counts. Macron will probably go full speed ahead anyway, but hopefully we can at least make him pay a political price that will turn him into a lame duck for the rest of his presidency. Of course, it's still an open question if the left will manage to capitalize on what should by every right be a slam dunk for it (especially given that Le Pen - another very sincere and authentic "populist" - is hemming and hawing about this).

This ^^

So many people are having disability issues when after 55-60 and let's be honest it's very difficult to find a job when you are in your 50's.


I'm surprised by the level of support this measure drags on this "leftwing" forum

Does France not have disability pensions? (Which are completely separate from old age pensions)

I was actually surprised to learn that American disability rights are actually extremely advanced even among European countries.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Any pension reform needs to be fair and just to manual workers, paying particular attention to those at the bottom of the income distribution. The problem with Macron's reform is that it really makes no concessions to these workers. Once again, France's President of the Rich pursues a reform that punishes these people, while he continues to pursue policies to benefit elites in France. Pension reforms are obviously necessary in France but this is not an approach I favor.

Have to agree with this.

Usually I would agree that 64/65 is a perfectly reasonable retirement age, and white collar workers should be encouraged to work longer through pension bonuses if they are able and willing, but Macron's pension reforms are paired with an economic agenda that prioritizes tax cuts for the well-off and large corporations.

As stated earlier in the thread, France's pension system actually is currently running surpluses, and the projected deficits going forward are actually quite small considering the size of the pension outlays. Those shortfalls could easily be covered by funding from general revenues and/or lifting the payroll tax caps (side note: why is calculating the pension payroll taxes so needlessly complicated in France? Jesus christ you people made it more convoluted than Germany).

They could also probably save some money from merging the funds together. The unions also have a very good point that, in a time of record profits and inflation, raising wages would also benefit the pension system by having some of those wage increases captured via the payroll tax. Finally, solving the issue of youth unemployment would also help here, since more people working = more people paying into the system.

Does France even have a disability pension and offer early retirement? Because if the proposal was raising the retirement age, combined with a solid disability pension and early retirement for manual workers, while also asking more from those who are well-off by things like raising the payroll tax cap, then perhaps people would be more accepting in the name of shared sacrifice.

But Macron's agenda quite obviously isn't about shared sacrifice, as we see him pursue these reforms while also cutting the corporate income tax this very year, the cost of which would cover more than half of the pension shortfall*. So hard not to sympathize the French people here.

*EDIT - just looked it up, the pension shortfall is projected to be 8-12 billion EUR per year from 2027 onwards, out of a total outlay of 340 billion EUR per year, and the corporate tax cuts for 2023 and 2024 alone are worth 8 billion EUR combined, so.....there we go.

[Conservatopia]

Reform should be about helping people and planning for a future with an aging population, not winning an ideological purity contest.

Therefore, any rise in the pension age needs to be coupled with an increase in the pension amount, more relief for the poor and a fairer system for the disabled.

[angus]

French unions represent less of the population percentage wise than their American counterparts.

They're both pretty low compared to other OECD member states.  In the US union density has declined from about 36% of the workforce in the mid-1950s to about 10.2% today.  In France it has declined from about 25% to about 8.8% in that same time frame.  Other countries have seen declines in union membership as well, but not as much.



The difference between France and other countries, even though they have a lower union density, is that they have cohesive forces built into law.  (look up Le dialogue sociale.)  Also, the French unions have had consistent support from the general public.  Between 60 and 70% of the public have positive views of them in polls over the past few decades.  In the US, support for unions fell from about 75% in the mid-1950s to about 48% in 2009.  Some of that was probably a result of the Great Recession.  However, there has been a steady uptick since then.  For example, Gallup reports a consistent rise in the approval ratings of unions in the US over the past decade:



By the way, are we still allowed to post images if the source is clearly cited?  

[CumbrianLefty]

By the way, are we still allowed to post images if the source is clearly cited?  

I wouldn't see why not.

[Bismarck]

Gotta love the French. The barricades are always ready.

[HillGoose]

good, why should ppl get to retire anyway? i wont ever get to.

not that i want it anyway, u r supposed to live to the ripe old age of died of a heart attack at ur desk, thats the way life is. always has been always will be.

[angus]

u r supposed to live to the ripe old age of died of a heart attack at ur desk, thats the way life is. always has been always will be.

You should read The Fixed Period by Anthony Trollope.  It is set in a fictional place called Britannula.  They found a perfect solution to the problem of cranky old people giving advice, repeating themselves, complaining about rheumatism, receiving government funds without contribution, trying to help, getting in the way, and making younger people feel guilty.  At the age of 67, a citizen's "deposition" would take place.  The deposition consisted of their removal to "The College", an institution situated in the town of Necropolis, where they would be encouraged to enjoy a year of contemplation.  This was followed exactly one year later, at the age of 68, by their "departure" (a peaceful euthanasia following inhalation of chloroform) and subsequent cremation.

[Torie]

u r supposed to live to the ripe old age of died of a heart attack at ur desk, thats the way life is. always has been always will be.

You should read The Fixed Period by Anthony Trollope.  It is set in a fictional place called Britannula.  They found a perfect solution to the problem of cranky old people giving advice, repeating themselves, complaining about rheumatism, receiving government funds without contribution, trying to help, getting in the way, and making younger people feel guilty.  At the age of 67, a citizen's "deposition" would take place.  The deposition consisted of their removal to "The College", an institution situated in the town of Necropolis, where they would be encouraged to enjoy a year of contemplation.  This was followed exactly one year later, at the age of 68, by their "departure" (a peaceful euthanasia following inhalation of chloroform) and subsequent cremation.

Way too complicated. The Spartans sent the Tories of their city to the mountaintop to freeze to death. Presumably the local fauna would then make good use of,  and dispose, the corpse, to keep things nice and sanitary up there.