Atheism is still a taboo for American politicians

[Torie]

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/01/06/atheism-is-still-a-taboo-for-american-politicians

While 30% of the voters are now Godless, way up from the anemic 5% of 50 years ago (I guess I was in the vanguard), only two members of Congress have come out of the Godless closet.

Obviously politicians perceive there is no electoral upside to going Godless. The reasons for that would seem obvious, but one thing one might not know, is that the religiously unaffiliated  tend to be disproportionately disengaged from civil institutions in general, so they pull less electoral punch than their numbers might suggest.

[LabourJersey]

Nathan's remark a while back that the religiously unaffiliated being mostly people with low social trust and middle-to-low earnings that just checked out of their churches for various reasons hits the nail on the head perfectly.

Another key point: the type of people who are politicians in America (especially local politicians) are "joiners," and tend to join many different community organizations for 1) the social connections and 2) the chance to be known just enough by just enough people in their town/district for electoral reasons. The type of person who is civically engaged is the type of people who recognizes the intrinsic value of places of worships as community spaces, even if they don't personally have devout beliefs (or beliefs, period).

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Another key point: the type of people who are politicians in America (especially local politicians) are "joiners," and tend to join many different community organizations for 1) the social connections and 2) the chance to be known just enough by just enough people in their town/district for electoral reasons. The type of person who is civically engaged is the type of people who recognizes the intrinsic value of places of worships as community spaces, even if they don't personally have devout beliefs (or beliefs, period).

Yep. The Rotarian personality, basically.

Religious leftists would also do well to keep all this in mind when deciding how we feel about certain stereotypes of irreligious people--something that took me a while to learn myself.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Another key point: the type of people who are politicians in America (especially local politicians) are "joiners," and tend to join many different community organizations for 1) the social connections and 2) the chance to be known just enough by just enough people in their town/district for electoral reasons. The type of person who is civically engaged is the type of people who recognizes the intrinsic value of places of worships as community spaces, even if they don't personally have devout beliefs (or beliefs, period).

Yep. The Rotarian personality, basically.

Religious leftists would also do well to keep all this in mind when deciding how we feel about certain stereotypes of irreligious people--something that took me a while to learn myself.

And what are these? I'm curious.

[afleitch]

Non religious voters don't expect or demand similar levels of non religious profession from their representatives at general or primary level that characterises stone religious bloc voting. As a bloc they are also younger, so there's overlap with the underrepresentation of that bloc. Will take a few cycles to become more representative.

[RINO Tom]

Your link won’t work for me, but 30% of Americans are not atheists, lmao.  I know you want to swell your ranks, but “Unaffiliated” should cease to be grouped with those who positively self-identify as atheists.  Your “Godless” group is not cohesive.

[Torie]

Your link won’t work for me, but 30% of Americans are not atheists, lmao.  I know you want to swell your ranks, but “Unaffiliated” should cease to be grouped with those who positively self-identify as atheists.  Your “Godless” group is not cohesive.

I fixed the link.

About two thirds of the unaffiliated are “nothings in particular” rather than agnostic or atheist.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/

About one third of the unaffiliateds have some nexus with religious sentiments. Two thirds really do not.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-family/nothing-in-particular/

So about a 20%-25% of what I crudely call “Godless” actually do consider themselves religious in some sense.  

Atheists and perhaps agnostics for purposes of assessing the role of religion in the public square should be separated into non-theists and anti-theists. I am a non-theist. I don't consider religion and the religious to in general to be either a threat to me or our civic institutions, and neither a boon or a bane to living an ethical life. Some clergy are estimable, and some are hucksters.

[Хahar 🤔]

So, in other words, what this study shows is that the actual proportion of atheists in the United States is 3%, about one-tenth of what was suggested in the opening post of this thread. I am far from convinced that this population including two members of Congress is strange or egregious.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Another key point: the type of people who are politicians in America (especially local politicians) are "joiners," and tend to join many different community organizations for 1) the social connections and 2) the chance to be known just enough by just enough people in their town/district for electoral reasons. The type of person who is civically engaged is the type of people who recognizes the intrinsic value of places of worships as community spaces, even if they don't personally have devout beliefs (or beliefs, period).

This. For example I once posted about a DFL Millennial State Rep who mentions on her site the Episcopalian church her and her husband attend as an example of how liberal Millennials are not loyal to Catholicism in any sense since they almost certainly converted to Episcopal (her maiden name implies a likely Catholic background and definitely not an Episcopalian one.) Now most such people don't actively convert even if they cease identifying as Catholic but someone who gets involved enough to become a State Rep at such a young age is far more likely to.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Another key point: the type of people who are politicians in America (especially local politicians) are "joiners," and tend to join many different community organizations for 1) the social connections and 2) the chance to be known just enough by just enough people in their town/district for electoral reasons. The type of person who is civically engaged is the type of people who recognizes the intrinsic value of places of worships as community spaces, even if they don't personally have devout beliefs (or beliefs, period).

Yep. The Rotarian personality, basically.

Religious leftists would also do well to keep all this in mind when deciding how we feel about certain stereotypes of irreligious people--something that took me a while to learn myself.

And what are these? I'm curious.

I'm thinking primarily of associating staunch atheism solely with upper-middle-class white STEMbro culture, but as RINO Tom observes, staunch atheism is not really representative of the so-called "nones" anyway, regardless of the other problems with the stereotype.

[Torie]

So, in other words, what this study shows is that the actual proportion of atheists in the United States is 3%, about one-tenth of what was suggested in the opening post of this thread. I am far from convinced that this population including two members of Congress is strange or egregious.

I revised and extended my remarks even before you weighed in with your j'accuse. You perhaps are at your zenith in your confidence as to your sagacity and judgement. It is all downhill going forward. At this juncture, if anyone hired me for anything, I would sue them for malpractice.

I do think it odd that so few are quite confident that there is no supernatural power, but then move on, because in general it does not make much difference about anything. Let's work on the practical and get out of the not provable, because not subject to the scientific method, metaphysical wars. I say this as a descendant from a most famous witch. Leave our coven alone in peace.

[sting in the rafters]

As a bloc they are also younger, so there's overlap with the underrepresentation of that bloc. Will take a few cycles to become more representative.

Surprised more people aren’t citing this as an answer. Irreligiosity at least in the US is generally a Millennial/Gen Z phenomenon. Likewise I contend irreligious underrepresentation is not the concern but rather Judeo-Christian overrepresentation. At the very least I want a Senate Majority Leader who doesn’t openly cite the Torah to justify Israeli settlements.

I'm thinking primarily of associating staunch atheism solely with upper-middle-class white STEMbro culture, but as RINO Tom observes, staunch atheism is not really representative of the so-called "nones" anyway, regardless of the other problems with the stereotype.

Implying terminally online religious lefties aren’t all white UMC bohemians lmfaoooooooooo

[afleitch]

Torie, I wouldn't be too apologetic.

To borrow a phrase, American 'nones' aren't 'temporarily embarrassed Christians'; the fact so few identify as Atheist despite Gallup recently identifying only 64% to 81% believing in God depending on how the question is asked is a reflection of US discourse.

None is None. It's not a holding pen.

[Kamala's side hoe]

As a bloc they are also younger, so there's overlap with the underrepresentation of that bloc. Will take a few cycles to become more representative.

Surprised more people aren’t citing this as an answer. Irreligiosity at least in the US is generally a Millennial/Gen Z phenomenon. Likewise I contend irreligious underrepresentation is not the concern but rather Judeo-Christian overrepresentation. At the very least I want a Senate Majority Leader who doesn’t openly cite the Torah to justify Israeli settlements.

Related

Some might quibble with bracketing Islam and Christian Europe, or ancient Greece with Egypt and Persia, as part of the “West.” But it was the rise of Islam that fractured the world of Late Antiquity, united around the Mediterranean and stretching from Arabia to Scotland. North Africa and Syria produced Roman Emperors. Britain did not. “The West” in modern parlance is a secularized form of the archaic “Christendom,” but Christianity and Islam operate within the same metaphysical universe and partake of a shared history. Christians and Muslims both worship the same God revealed to Abraham. They have a truly shared understanding of what a religion is, though they might fight to the death over abstruse matters of theology.

Islam and Christianity both draw on Hebrew religious ideas and Greek philosophical traditions. Both have been strongly shaped by Persian Zoroastrian concepts of good and evil, heaven and hell. The angels who serve the Abrahamic God are imported from Zoroastrianism, as are the ideas of the bodily resurrection and the end of days. West of the Indus river, and north of the Sahara desert, the peoples of Europe, North Africa, and West Asia may have been fractious and seen themselves as enemies, but ultimately they spoke one cultural language.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

As a bloc they are also younger, so there's overlap with the underrepresentation of that bloc. Will take a few cycles to become more representative.

Surprised more people aren’t citing this as an answer. Irreligiosity at least in the US is generally a Millennial/Gen Z phenomenon. Likewise I contend irreligious underrepresentation is not the concern but rather Judeo-Christian overrepresentation. At the very least I want a Senate Majority Leader who doesn’t openly cite the Torah to justify Israeli settlements.

Related

Some might quibble with bracketing Islam and Christian Europe, or ancient Greece with Egypt and Persia, as part of the “West.” But it was the rise of Islam that fractured the world of Late Antiquity, united around the Mediterranean and stretching from Arabia to Scotland. North Africa and Syria produced Roman Emperors. Britain did not. “The West” in modern parlance is a secularized form of the archaic “Christendom,” but Christianity and Islam operate within the same metaphysical universe and partake of a shared history. Christians and Muslims both worship the same God revealed to Abraham. They have a truly shared understanding of what a religion is, though they might fight to the death over abstruse matters of theology.

Islam and Christianity both draw on Hebrew religious ideas and Greek philosophical traditions. Both have been strongly shaped by Persian Zoroastrian concepts of good and evil, heaven and hell. The angels who serve the Abrahamic God are imported from Zoroastrianism, as are the ideas of the bodily resurrection and the end of days. West of the Indus river, and north of the Sahara desert, the peoples of Europe, North Africa, and West Asia may have been fractious and seen themselves as enemies, but ultimately they spoke one cultural language.

In Islam there is a term meaning "People of the Book". This term's existence speaks to the truth that what you posted here reflects.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

God is cause and effect and unless you are dead or Trump rich you are gonna go thru human revolution which are obstacle

Loki or Lucifer is free will and God is judgement even in Death until the Last Day there may be cause and effect reincarnated but you won't know until you die first

[Sir Mohamed]

Unless someone holds very extremist views such Islamism or fundamental Christianity, religion should be a private matter that's irrelevant for political candidates. Whether some is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist or something else doesn't matter.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

     I wish I could recommend this twice. Outward atheism might be taboo, but politicians across the spectrum do a good job of instantiating inward atheism through their words and deeds.

[Torie]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

     I wish I could recommend this twice. Outward atheism might be taboo, but politicians across the spectrum do a good job of instantiating inward atheism through their words and deeds.

No wonder I don't know the word. It's yet another product of the useless pastime!

in·stan·ti·ate
/inˈstan(t)SHēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: instantiating

    represent as or by an instance.
    "a study of two groups who seemed to instantiate productive aspects of this"
        Philosophy
        (of a universal or abstract concept) have an instance; be represented by an actual example.


I think it is more just another iteration of don't ask, don't tell myself. As long as you keep your atheism closeted, it's OK to actually be one and hold elective office. The kiss of death is to wear your atheism on your sleeve.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

     I wish I could recommend this twice. Outward atheism might be taboo, but politicians across the spectrum do a good job of instantiating inward atheism through their words and deeds.

No wonder I don't know the word. It's yet another product of the useless pastime!

in·stan·ti·ate
/inˈstan(t)SHēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: instantiating

    represent as or by an instance.
    "a study of two groups who seemed to instantiate productive aspects of this"
        Philosophy
        (of a universal or abstract concept) have an instance; be represented by an actual example.


I think it is more just another iteration of don't ask, don't tell myself. As long as you keep your atheism closeted, it's OK to actually be one and hold elective office. The kiss of death is to wear your atheism on your sleeve.

     Undoubtedly that's true, but my point is more that this nation already lived as if it were atheist, even if it refuses to profess as much. A lot of conservatives look to the 1980s as a golden age, but I've seen enough movies from the era to know how worldly the culture was then. The decline of American faith in recent years is definitely not a positive development in my estimation, but it's also more an outward acknowledgement of what was already the content of the national heart.

[Torie]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

     I wish I could recommend this twice. Outward atheism might be taboo, but politicians across the spectrum do a good job of instantiating inward atheism through their words and deeds.

No wonder I don't know the word. It's yet another product of the useless pastime!

in·stan·ti·ate
/inˈstan(t)SHēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: instantiating

    represent as or by an instance.
    "a study of two groups who seemed to instantiate productive aspects of this"
        Philosophy
        (of a universal or abstract concept) have an instance; be represented by an actual example.


I think it is more just another iteration of don't ask, don't tell myself. As long as you keep your atheism closeted, it's OK to actually be one and hold elective office. The kiss of death is to wear your atheism on your sleeve.

     Undoubtedly that's true, but my point is more that this nation already lived as if it were atheist, even if it refuses to profess as much. A lot of conservatives look to the 1980s as a golden age, but I've seen enough movies from the era to know how worldly the culture was then. The decline of American faith in recent years is definitely not a positive development in my estimation, but it's also more an outward acknowledgement of what was already the content of the national heart.

Do you consider atheism a synonym for amoral? I ask because however delusional it may be, I consider myself to be ethical, and would never do something I considered "wrong" for personal gain, as a matter of honor if nothing else, and have been willing to sever ties over ethical concerns.

So ascribing atheism as the loci of what ails the public square, beyond perhaps missing the point, makes me uncomfortable as a personal matter. Make sense?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

     I wish I could recommend this twice. Outward atheism might be taboo, but politicians across the spectrum do a good job of instantiating inward atheism through their words and deeds.

No wonder I don't know the word. It's yet another product of the useless pastime!

in·stan·ti·ate
/inˈstan(t)SHēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: instantiating

    represent as or by an instance.
    "a study of two groups who seemed to instantiate productive aspects of this"
        Philosophy
        (of a universal or abstract concept) have an instance; be represented by an actual example.


I think it is more just another iteration of don't ask, don't tell myself. As long as you keep your atheism closeted, it's OK to actually be one and hold elective office. The kiss of death is to wear your atheism on your sleeve.

     Undoubtedly that's true, but my point is more that this nation already lived as if it were atheist, even if it refuses to profess as much. A lot of conservatives look to the 1980s as a golden age, but I've seen enough movies from the era to know how worldly the culture was then. The decline of American faith in recent years is definitely not a positive development in my estimation, but it's also more an outward acknowledgement of what was already the content of the national heart.

Do you consider atheism a synonym for amoral? I ask because however delusional it may be, I consider myself to be ethical, and would never do something I considered "wrong" for personal gain, as a matter of honor if nothing else, and have been willing to sever ties over ethical concerns.

So ascribing atheism as the loci of what ails the public square, beyond perhaps missing the point, makes me uncomfortable as a personal matter. Make sense?

     I would consider it a synonym for a certain kind of amorality. Specifically as regards what Jonathan Haidt identifies as the dimension of sanctity. Very few politicians demonstrate high regard for sanctity in both their personal lives and their attitudes towards policy, which makes it odd that they are uniformly expected to profess a belief that carries implications in re sanctity. Atheists typically have low regard for sanctity, so I don't think you would see the things that concern me as a problem at all.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Insincere, self-serving religiosity has been the norm for political rulers throughout history. Our current political class might be unusually brazen compared to their predecessors a few decades ago, but they have little to envy many Roman emperors or Medieval monarchs and Popes. To equate it with atheism - the overt and sincere belief in the nonexistence of God - is as misleading as it is insulting. There may be very few sincerely religious people in America, but religion as a political cudgel against all kinds of "others" has lost none of its potency.

[Torie]

Kind of silly, considering how few of them give the impression that they care about God.

     I wish I could recommend this twice. Outward atheism might be taboo, but politicians across the spectrum do a good job of instantiating inward atheism through their words and deeds.

No wonder I don't know the word. It's yet another product of the useless pastime!

in·stan·ti·ate
/inˈstan(t)SHēˌāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: instantiating

    represent as or by an instance.
    "a study of two groups who seemed to instantiate productive aspects of this"
        Philosophy
        (of a universal or abstract concept) have an instance; be represented by an actual example.


I think it is more just another iteration of don't ask, don't tell myself. As long as you keep your atheism closeted, it's OK to actually be one and hold elective office. The kiss of death is to wear your atheism on your sleeve.

     Undoubtedly that's true, but my point is more that this nation already lived as if it were atheist, even if it refuses to profess as much. A lot of conservatives look to the 1980s as a golden age, but I've seen enough movies from the era to know how worldly the culture was then. The decline of American faith in recent years is definitely not a positive development in my estimation, but it's also more an outward acknowledgement of what was already the content of the national heart.

Do you consider atheism a synonym for amoral? I ask because however delusional it may be, I consider myself to be ethical, and would never do something I considered "wrong" for personal gain, as a matter of honor if nothing else, and have been willing to sever ties over ethical concerns.

So ascribing atheism as the loci of what ails the public square, beyond perhaps missing the point, makes me uncomfortable as a personal matter. Make sense?

     I would consider it a synonym for a certain kind of amorality. Specifically as regards what Jonathan Haidt identifies as the dimension of sanctity. Very few politicians demonstrate high regard for sanctity in both their personal lives and their attitudes towards policy, which makes it odd that they are uniformly expected to profess a belief that carries implications in re sanctity. Atheists typically have low regard for sanctity, so I don't think you would see the things that concern me as a problem at all.

https://moralfoundations.org/

“5) Sanctity/degradation: This foundation was shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).”

And there you have it. I suspect the LGBTQ goes into the degradation box without passing go. And then the “contaminants” bit to seal the deal. Yikes! OK, I’m done. Stick a fork in me.

I do appreciate my horizons being broadened though. Thanks. See even a really old dog can learn a new trick, even if not score one.