What states are more socially conservative than its voting suggests?
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  What states are more socially conservative than its voting suggests?
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Author Topic: What states are more socially conservative than its voting suggests?  (Read 1206 times)
Beam Me Up, Mr. Speaker
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« on: December 22, 2022, 11:13:08 AM »

My top 3:

Georgia:Standard Deep South state outside of metro Atlanta and even some of the Dem-leaning suburbanites are more socially conservative compared to the national party.

Virginia: Socially conservative outside of NoVa

Massachusetts: While itís not nearly as socially conservative as it used to be even 30 years ago, Iíd predict it still has its share of socially conservative Dems although they are mostly over the age of 60.
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The Corvid Whisperer
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2022, 05:00:30 PM »

Possibly none of them, but the closest thing I think are Hawaii, California, Maryland (& Delaware) and parts of the Deep South.
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2022, 05:07:12 PM »

Rhode Island is the obvious choice, isn't it?
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Cyrusman
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2022, 06:20:59 PM »

Possibly none of them, but the closest thing I think are Hawaii, California, Maryland (& Delaware) and parts of the Deep South.

What makes California socially conservative?
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2022, 06:45:31 PM »

Possibly none of them, but the closest thing I think are Hawaii, California, Maryland (& Delaware) and parts of the Deep South.

What makes California socially conservative?

California is very socially liberal, I just said it is not particularly more liberal than its (partisan) voting history suggests, which is what is being asked in the thread.
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justfollowingtheelections
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2022, 01:15:22 PM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2022, 02:01:42 PM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2022, 02:58:27 PM »

Rhode Island is the obvious choice, isn't it?

Yup. Heavily Catholic state in which it's local congressional body is made up of actual devout faithful elected officials who uphold the reactionary positions of the church. Massachusetts north to the state is filled more with Cafetaria Catholics, which lends itself to more liberalism.
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2022, 03:14:51 PM »
« Edited: December 28, 2022, 03:32:33 PM by Biden his time »

Rhode Island is the obvious choice, isn't it?

Yup. Heavily Catholic state in which it's local congressional body is made up of actual devout faithful elected officials who uphold the reactionary positions of the church.

such as...?



Quote
Than its voting suggests

California, New York state, New Jersey, Delaware
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PSOL
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2022, 03:56:35 PM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.
Their politics are incredibly racialized, with the closest political atmosphere of the South in terms of its importance, just that the GOP has failed at making itself adjust to take into account of these local dynamics till recently in Honolulu

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justfollowingtheelections
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2022, 05:12:46 PM »
« Edited: December 29, 2022, 05:23:47 PM by justfollowingtheelections »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.
Their politics are incredibly racialized, with the closest political atmosphere of the South in terms of its importance, just that the GOP has failed at making itself adjust to take into account of these local dynamics till recently in Honolulu



I'm not really sure I agree with this assessment.  I would say there are a number of reasons why the state is so Democratic:
1. Inoue, who was an institution, especially for the Japanese-American population
2. Unions

The perception that the GOP has become the "white peoples party" has become a factor in recent years, but I would say it's affecting all voters equally, regardless of ethnic background.  I would even argue that white voters are more likely to be affected by this and vote Democratic because of it.

This is of course a generalization, but I would say that Hawaii's white population (as well as the small black and hispanic populations, who are in the same circles as the white population) belong to the following categories:
- Hippies, and neohippies (of all ages)
- Military or former military, who are not always as conservative as people think
During the pandemic, a 3rd category would be tech bros/remote workers, who in many cases bought property, although I am not sure if they will stay there long term.

I would say that, especially the new generations of Hawaiians are more politically aware (US politics have almost always been an affair far from what actually happens on the islands, as can be seen by the voting participation rate), and I would say that nowadays Democratic voters have become more progressive.  There are a number of reasons why this has been happening, but I would say the biggest is environmental concerns.  A 2nd one would be the enormous cost of living, and the fact that more and more people are making the connection between Republican/big business/big real estate-friendly policies, and the income inequality that exists everywhere on the islands.

Having said all that, I would say that Hawaii is still less progressive than its voting record would indicate, but the gap is closing quickly.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2022, 05:40:32 PM »

Pretty much all the Southern states with large Black populations. 
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CentristRepublican
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2023, 03:06:11 AM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.

Seriously speaking, what's the difference between being culturally left and socially left (or culturally right and socially right)? I know it's a meme, but I'm actually wondering why/how you draw this distinction for HI.

California outside of the Bay Area and LA County ó the only reason the CADEMs are seen as a 'woke' state party by Dem standards is because of the influence of those two areas, for better or for worse.

Here's the thing though, LA County plus the Bay Area is like half the state already.

And if you add on the LA suburbs that spill into Riverside (cough cough Palm Springs), San Bernardino, and Orange Counties (to say nothing of San Diego County, which is today, much unlike 50 years back, socially liberal as well), that's well over half the state.

And it's not *just* LA County and the Bay Area. Reminder that other counties on the coast are very socially liberal as well, and they are hardly lacking in people. Just look at the results for Prop 8. It failed statewide, and in supposedly socially liberal LA County, but it passed in Santa Barbara County, as well as a number of other counties outside the Bay Area on the coast.
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2023, 11:50:40 AM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.

Seriously speaking, what's the difference between being culturally left and socially left (or culturally right and socially right)? I know it's a meme, but I'm actually wondering why/how you draw this distinction for HI.

Morality/sexuality/religion vs Race/pluralism/nationalism/globalism. HI is culturally left due to its racial progressivism but also maybe environmentalism to some extent. Itís also relatively devout/spiritual and more conservative on LGBT issues due to the stronger overall (not just Christian) religious influence. Relatively low atheist/agnostic share among the disaggregated Asian population per Abdullahís threads.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=294136.0

Social Conservatism- Rooted in support for traditional moral values, often through Christianity (or some sects of Judaism/Islam).  The issues that they care about are issues of the moral majority.  Abortion and gay/transgender issues get the most attention, but most of these voters are also opposed to secularism in general and to specific things like casual sex and pornography, at least on a personal basis.

Cultural Conservatism- This is based in a desire to conserve a type of culture.  This often manifests itself in opposing immigration and Islam, as well as some other race-based controversies.  It is not always explicitly racist, but it can get there on the fringe.  The alt-right and alt-light are extreme examples of cultural conservatism, but not all cultural conservatives go that far.  Still, its motivations are diametrically opposed to the motivations of social conservatism and people in this group are relatively secular in outlook.  Most don't care about abortion or if they do, it's only because SJW feminists support it.  Likewise, they may support pornography because some feminists don't like it.  It's all about getting back at any group trying to change the culture.
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David Hume
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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2023, 09:45:04 AM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.

Seriously speaking, what's the difference between being culturally left and socially left (or culturally right and socially right)? I know it's a meme, but I'm actually wondering why/how you draw this distinction for HI.

Morality/sexuality/religion vs Race/pluralism/nationalism/globalism. HI is culturally left due to its racial progressivism but also maybe environmentalism to some extent. Itís also relatively devout/spiritual and more conservative on LGBT issues due to the stronger overall (not just Christian) religious influence. Relatively low atheist/agnostic share among the disaggregated Asian population per Abdullahís threads.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=294136.0

Social Conservatism- Rooted in support for traditional moral values, often through Christianity (or some sects of Judaism/Islam).  The issues that they care about are issues of the moral majority.  Abortion and gay/transgender issues get the most attention, but most of these voters are also opposed to secularism in general and to specific things like casual sex and pornography, at least on a personal basis.

Cultural Conservatism- This is based in a desire to conserve a type of culture.  This often manifests itself in opposing immigration and Islam, as well as some other race-based controversies.  It is not always explicitly racist, but it can get there on the fringe.  The alt-right and alt-light are extreme examples of cultural conservatism, but not all cultural conservatives go that far.  Still, its motivations are diametrically opposed to the motivations of social conservatism and people in this group are relatively secular in outlook.  Most don't care about abortion or if they do, it's only because SJW feminists support it.  Likewise, they may support pornography because some feminists don't like it.  It's all about getting back at any group trying to change the culture.

How would non-religious but anti-woke conservative libertarians fall into this classification?
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Bismarck
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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2023, 11:55:11 AM »

Rhode Island is the obvious choice, isn't it?

Yup. Heavily Catholic state in which it's local congressional body is made up of actual devout faithful elected officials who uphold the reactionary positions of the church.

such as...?



Quote
Than its voting suggests

California, New York state, New Jersey, Delaware

He doesnít know what heís talking about. Both congressman from Rhode Island are Jewish and Senator Whitehouse is Episcopalian. Jack Reed is catholic but hardly some kind of reactionary.
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King of Kensington
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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2023, 08:20:46 PM »

There's been a much bigger drop in Catholic/Christian identity in Massachusetts than Rhode Island, according to the Pew religious landscape study.

Rhode Island

Christian  72%
Protestant  30%
Catholic  42%
None  20%

Massachusetts

Christian  58%
Protestant  21%
Catholic  34%
None  32%

On the other hand, not a huge difference on abortion.  Both have solid pro-choice majorities.

AP Votecast survey (abortion legal/illegal in all/most cases):

Massachusetts  77-23 legal
Rhode Island  73-27 legal
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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2023, 09:33:57 PM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.

Seriously speaking, what's the difference between being culturally left and socially left (or culturally right and socially right)? I know it's a meme, but I'm actually wondering why/how you draw this distinction for HI.

Morality/sexuality/religion vs Race/pluralism/nationalism/globalism. HI is culturally left due to its racial progressivism but also maybe environmentalism to some extent. Itís also relatively devout/spiritual and more conservative on LGBT issues due to the stronger overall (not just Christian) religious influence. Relatively low atheist/agnostic share among the disaggregated Asian population per Abdullahís threads.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=294136.0

Social Conservatism- Rooted in support for traditional moral values, often through Christianity (or some sects of Judaism/Islam).  The issues that they care about are issues of the moral majority.  Abortion and gay/transgender issues get the most attention, but most of these voters are also opposed to secularism in general and to specific things like casual sex and pornography, at least on a personal basis.

Cultural Conservatism- This is based in a desire to conserve a type of culture.  This often manifests itself in opposing immigration and Islam, as well as some other race-based controversies.  It is not always explicitly racist, but it can get there on the fringe.  The alt-right and alt-light are extreme examples of cultural conservatism, but not all cultural conservatives go that far.  Still, its motivations are diametrically opposed to the motivations of social conservatism and people in this group are relatively secular in outlook.  Most don't care about abortion or if they do, it's only because SJW feminists support it.  Likewise, they may support pornography because some feminists don't like it.  It's all about getting back at any group trying to change the culture.

How would non-religious but anti-woke conservative libertarians fall into this classification?

It really depends on where individual conservative libertarians stand on the issues. On paper they would be "socially moderate but culturally conservative". But I don't think "anti-woke" voters are inherently aligned with the US right on race relations, opinions of immigrants, social mobility through hard work (I don't think there's much difference between the two parties on this tbh), gender equality, environmental protections, civic engagement, etc. I generally side with the US left on these issues, but I also agree with many criticisms of "wokeness" that "anti-woke" people bring up, even if I don't care about it enough to vote R over more concrete bread-and-butter concerns.

Side tangent: I get the impression that Chinese culture is more accepting of abortion and also more thoroughly secular than the other Confucianist countries, which are still more secular and pluralistic than the other Asian countries that have large diaspora communities in the US. I don't perceive Chinese immigrants to the US (or contemporary China for that matter) to be more pro-LGBT. But at the same time I suspect Taiwan's relative acceptance of LGBT rights is mostly due to stronger secular and humanistic impulses from its Chinese cultural heritage.
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David Hume
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2023, 12:28:36 AM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.

Seriously speaking, what's the difference between being culturally left and socially left (or culturally right and socially right)? I know it's a meme, but I'm actually wondering why/how you draw this distinction for HI.

Morality/sexuality/religion vs Race/pluralism/nationalism/globalism. HI is culturally left due to its racial progressivism but also maybe environmentalism to some extent. Itís also relatively devout/spiritual and more conservative on LGBT issues due to the stronger overall (not just Christian) religious influence. Relatively low atheist/agnostic share among the disaggregated Asian population per Abdullahís threads.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=294136.0

Social Conservatism- Rooted in support for traditional moral values, often through Christianity (or some sects of Judaism/Islam).  The issues that they care about are issues of the moral majority.  Abortion and gay/transgender issues get the most attention, but most of these voters are also opposed to secularism in general and to specific things like casual sex and pornography, at least on a personal basis.

Cultural Conservatism- This is based in a desire to conserve a type of culture.  This often manifests itself in opposing immigration and Islam, as well as some other race-based controversies.  It is not always explicitly racist, but it can get there on the fringe.  The alt-right and alt-light are extreme examples of cultural conservatism, but not all cultural conservatives go that far.  Still, its motivations are diametrically opposed to the motivations of social conservatism and people in this group are relatively secular in outlook.  Most don't care about abortion or if they do, it's only because SJW feminists support it.  Likewise, they may support pornography because some feminists don't like it.  It's all about getting back at any group trying to change the culture.

How would non-religious but anti-woke conservative libertarians fall into this classification?

It really depends on where individual conservative libertarians stand on the issues. On paper they would be "socially moderate but culturally conservative". But I don't think "anti-woke" voters are inherently aligned with the US right on race relations, opinions of immigrants, social mobility through hard work (I don't think there's much difference between the two parties on this tbh), gender equality, environmental protections, civic engagement, etc. I generally side with the US left on these issues, but I also agree with many criticisms of "wokeness" that "anti-woke" people bring up, even if I don't care about it enough to vote R over more concrete bread-and-butter concerns.

Side tangent: I get the impression that Chinese culture is more accepting of abortion and also more thoroughly secular than the other Confucianist countries, which are still more secular and pluralistic than the other Asian countries that have large diaspora communities in the US. I don't perceive Chinese immigrants to the US (or contemporary China for that matter) to be more pro-LGBT. But at the same time I suspect Taiwan's relative acceptance of LGBT rights is mostly due to stronger secular and humanistic impulses from its Chinese cultural heritage.
I should probably say anti-PC to be more precise. For racial affairs, support equal opportunity over equal outcome, color-blind over affirmative action. For LGBT affairs, tolerate LGBT rights like gay marriage, but against LGBT sex education to minors (teaching 9 year old things like sex is fluid and you can be a girl born in a boy's body.) For social orders, support death penalty and against soft on crime.

I do not quite agree with InglehartĖWelzel in secular vs traditional values dichotomy. Do you consider confucian secular or traditional? They are secular in the sense of little influence from Abrahamic religions. For example, abortion is not a salient issue at all in Confucian societies. They are more tolerant to LGBT historically as well. But on the other hand, they share a lot of similarities with traditional values. For sexuality, they are very conservative, against sex before marriage and strongly prefer virgins, which are similar to Islamic, Hindu, Catholic traditional values.

Another issue is crime and social order. Traditional societies usually strongly support death penalty. Yet the Catholic church is against it, and as the result, a lot of Catholic societies abolished death penalty.

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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2023, 02:25:21 PM »
« Edited: March 21, 2023, 03:38:30 PM by Interlocutor »

When I visited the Pacific NW, I got the sense that Washington is more socially liberal than California despite the latter voting further to the left
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2023, 12:55:47 PM »

Possibly none of them, but the closest thing I think are Hawaii, California, Maryland (& Delaware) and parts of the Deep South.

I've had three friends move out to California from the Midwest, and all three (including two in the Bay Area) said they were shocked how many "conservative" (which should more accurately be rephrased as "kinda seem like they're Republican-ish, given the context of these conversations) they have met.  California is perhaps the poster child for a "Blue State" for many people, but it is massive and diverse.  I think people on political forums often get too caught up in "Leans" and whatnot, but even most Safe D/Safe R states have literally millions of the other party, haha.
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2023, 12:59:39 PM »

Hawaii is a lot more socially conservative than people realize.

Hawai'i is peak "socially right, culturally left" as far as US states are concerned.

Yeah, I think this is an important distinction.  While "cultural" and "social" conservatism have blended a lot more now than in the past due to our polarized climate, I would argue that they're still separate distinctions ... at least to me.  New York City is obviously extremely socially liberal overall, but I actually felt like a lot of the people gave off a decently "culturally conservative" vibe, and I have heard people say the same thing after visiting Boston and Philadelphia.  And that makes sense, they're all old, historic, storied cities, and you're going to pick up at least SOMEWHAT of a "traditional outlook" on some things.  I don't even know how I would distinguish the two terms specifically, but they are definitely different.  For example, I feel a lot of Black people in Chicago are fairly culturally conservative (religious, view their neighborhoods/communities in a more traditional manner, etc.) but actually aren't really that "socially conservative" as it pertains to adhering to the GOP platform's stance on "social issues" ... which is pretty much what this term means today.
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2023, 01:23:48 PM »

Possibly none of them, but the closest thing I think are Hawaii, California, Maryland (& Delaware) and parts of the Deep South.

I've had three friends move out to California from the Midwest, and all three (including two in the Bay Area) said they were shocked how many "conservative" (which should more accurately be rephrased as "kinda seem like they're Republican-ish, given the context of these conversations) they have met.  California is perhaps the poster child for a "Blue State" for many people, but it is massive and diverse.  I think people on political forums often get too caught up in "Leans" and whatnot, but even most Safe D/Safe R states have literally millions of the other party, haha.

One of the distinctive things about California is that places here that look Republican often vote Democratic. I think something similar could apply to people: Californians who give off conservative vibes often vote Democratic in spite of that. You see this in an electorate that in recent years has rejected affirmative action and death penalty abolition despite being one of the safest Democratic states in the nation.

Obviously California also just has more Republicans than any other state in the country (although Texas and Florida were close in 2020).
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