Israel General Discussion: Annus Horribilis
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Hnv1
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« Reply #400 on: March 28, 2023, 08:31:37 AM »

I do appreciate this colloquium on political theory...but you're blocking this thread with everyone's oh-so-unique takes. take it elsewhere
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Torie
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« Reply #401 on: March 28, 2023, 08:35:00 AM »
« Edited: March 28, 2023, 09:36:38 AM by Torie »

The NYT’s White House sources seem to think that it had much to do with causing the pause.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/27/us/politics/biden-israel-netanyahu.html

By Sunday night, White House officials came to two conclusions. The first was that Mr. Netanyahu had deeply miscalculated when he announced the firing of the defense minister, Yoav Gallant, who had publicly called for suspending efforts to pass the legislation that would alter how judges are appointed.

The second conclusion, they said, was that Mr. Netanyahu was looking for a way out of the crisis, and benefited from telling the right-wing partners in his fragile coalition that he could not risk losing the support of Israel’s most important ally. His message, one senior official said, was that Israel could soon face a crisis with Iran, which is creeping ever closer to a nuclear weapons capability, and that he could not afford to alienate Washington.

So when Mr. Netanyahu announced on Monday in Israel that “when there is a possibility of preventing a civil war though dialogue,” he would “take a time out for dialogue,” they read it as a message to the far-right members of his coalition that he had no other choice.


And a series of commentary articles. Not explicitly addressed is are there 61 votes to pass the proposed restructuring or some facsimile thereof at this point?

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react-netanyahu-just-delayed-his-judicial-overhaul-after-mass-protests-whats-next-for-israels-democracy/
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NYDem
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« Reply #402 on: March 28, 2023, 08:42:53 AM »

The comparison that obviously springs to mind when we look at current Israel is South Africa, and I do not mean this as it relates to the Palestinians. Rather, Bibi represents a coalition whose electoral reach exceeds their economic grasp. The failures of post-Botha South Africa offer a cautionary tale about the dangers of this.

I’m not sure what exactly you mean by this. Care to expand on it?
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #403 on: March 28, 2023, 08:46:32 AM »

After making it through four Arab-Israeli wars and God's knows what else Israel could basically self-destruct. That's as ironic as it is sad.
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Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!
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« Reply #404 on: March 28, 2023, 02:00:42 PM »

There's one weird trick that would politically disempower the Haredim forever while also striking an unprecedented blow for democracy: acknowledge that Gaza and the West Bank are fully Israeli, granting all residents full citizenship and the right to vote. The likes of OY would be politically irrelevant  in such a country.
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Vosem
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« Reply #405 on: March 28, 2023, 02:14:08 PM »

There's one weird trick that would politically disempower the Haredim forever while also striking an unprecedented blow for democracy: acknowledge that Gaza and the West Bank are fully Israeli, granting all residents full citizenship and the right to vote. The likes of OY would be politically irrelevant  in such a country.

The actual residents of those territories are deeply opposed to Israeli annexation, as is the international community. (Also, the Gaza Strip is under the control of a regime strongly opposed to the Israeli state; it would need to be reconquered first, by force. At that point you might as well include Egypt).

My guess is that very eventually there will be a successful voting rights/annexation movement among Palestinians in the West Bank, as I've written elsewhere; the long-term demographic trend, without Gaza, is that the area is getting more Jewish and eventually the independence of the remaining area will not be a realistic demand. But I think this is still very far away, and this projection is dependent on the sort of demographic analyses that have been wrong in the past; between 1995 and 2015 everybody, including the Israeli right, thought that the long-term trend of the region was to become more Palestinian.

At this point keeping the fiction of a "Israel-Palestine conflict", or sham "two-state solutions", is an insult to intelligence. This is not a matter of self-determination, but a constant abuse of the basic human rights of 1/2 of the population under Israeli control. The state of Israel rules everything between the Jordan and the Sea and will never withdraw from the West Bank, let alone East Jerusalem. The only way to ensure the Jewish character of the existing state is through the disenfranchisement of most Palestinians. This political regime, based on on the privileged status and the supremacy of one ethnic or religious group over another, is not a democracy. Israel-Palestine will never be a democratic state until everyone living in that country has the same legal status and is protected from abuse by the same set of laws.

It is usually right-wing parties in Israel who favor extending an offer of citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank (Bennett -- still probably Israel's next PM in the near future -- wants to do it specifically for residents of Area C, it was the Likud that extended an offer of citizenship to East Jerusalem Arabs in 1981). Left-wing parties are uniformly opposed. The thing that stops this from happening -- besides international pressure -- is the existence of the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian independence declaration of 1988, and the Israeli government's agreement to cede some control within the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority.

Given 21st-century demographic trends it would not be especially threatening today to the Jewish character of the state to annex the West Bank and give citizenship to every Arab who lives there. It will be even less threatening in 20 years.

What would be threatening is incorporating Gaza: Gaza is a huge Arab city with a sky-high fertility rate and if you include it in "between the Jordan and the Sea" then a Jewish demographic majority is impossible. But there is no reason for Gaza to be part of that state (and as the June 2007 civil conflict showed, Gaza does not even really seem that interested in being part of a state with the West Bank); its history, political preferences, and economy are completely different. Nor is there any particular reason for Israeli ultranationalists to want it, which is why it was easier to withdraw from 2004 than the religiously significant West Bank. There is no reason that, when a government arises there that chooses peace, Gaza couldn't be a prosperous independent port (with extensive natural gas reserves) separate from both Israel and Egypt. Some argument might exist that Israel would have to pay Gaza reparations to apologize for bombing it repeatedly instead of just unilaterally ending the terror of the al-Qassam Brigades.

This is probably the only form of the two-state solution that would work; anything based on modern ethnic borders in the West Bank really does start to look like a bantustan. Ultimately, the first step on the road to peace will be when the Palestinian Authority (and the Israeli state) acknowledge that people in Yatta and Tulkarm, not just al-Quds, deserve the option to have Israeli citizenship.

~~~~

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

How come some poor people deserve welfare, and others deserve disenfranchisement?
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« Reply #406 on: March 28, 2023, 02:44:05 PM »

There's one weird trick that would politically disempower the Haredim forever while also striking an unprecedented blow for democracy: acknowledge that Gaza and the West Bank are fully Israeli, granting all residents full citizenship and the right to vote. The likes of OY would be politically irrelevant  in such a country.

The actual residents of those territories are deeply opposed to Israeli annexation, as is the international community. (Also, the Gaza Strip is under the control of a regime strongly opposed to the Israeli state; it would need to be reconquered first, by force. At that point you might as well include Egypt).

My guess is that very eventually there will be a successful voting rights/annexation movement among Palestinians in the West Bank, as I've written elsewhere; the long-term demographic trend, without Gaza, is that the area is getting more Jewish and eventually the independence of the remaining area will not be a realistic demand. But I think this is still very far away, and this projection is dependent on the sort of demographic analyses that have been wrong in the past; between 1995 and 2015 everybody, including the Israeli right, thought that the long-term trend of the region was to become more Palestinian.

At this point keeping the fiction of a "Israel-Palestine conflict", or sham "two-state solutions", is an insult to intelligence. This is not a matter of self-determination, but a constant abuse of the basic human rights of 1/2 of the population under Israeli control. The state of Israel rules everything between the Jordan and the Sea and will never withdraw from the West Bank, let alone East Jerusalem. The only way to ensure the Jewish character of the existing state is through the disenfranchisement of most Palestinians. This political regime, based on on the privileged status and the supremacy of one ethnic or religious group over another, is not a democracy. Israel-Palestine will never be a democratic state until everyone living in that country has the same legal status and is protected from abuse by the same set of laws.

It is usually right-wing parties in Israel who favor extending an offer of citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank (Bennett -- still probably Israel's next PM in the near future -- wants to do it specifically for residents of Area C, it was the Likud that extended an offer of citizenship to East Jerusalem Arabs in 1981). Left-wing parties are uniformly opposed. The thing that stops this from happening -- besides international pressure -- is the existence of the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian independence declaration of 1988, and the Israeli government's agreement to cede some control within the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority.

Given 21st-century demographic trends it would not be especially threatening today to the Jewish character of the state to annex the West Bank and give citizenship to every Arab who lives there. It will be even less threatening in 20 years.

What would be threatening is incorporating Gaza: Gaza is a huge Arab city with a sky-high fertility rate and if you include it in "between the Jordan and the Sea" then a Jewish demographic majority is impossible. But there is no reason for Gaza to be part of that state (and as the June 2007 civil conflict showed, Gaza does not even really seem that interested in being part of a state with the West Bank); its history, political preferences, and economy are completely different. Nor is there any particular reason for Israeli ultranationalists to want it, which is why it was easier to withdraw from 2004 than the religiously significant West Bank. There is no reason that, when a government arises there that chooses peace, Gaza couldn't be a prosperous independent port (with extensive natural gas reserves) separate from both Israel and Egypt. Some argument might exist that Israel would have to pay Gaza reparations to apologize for bombing it repeatedly instead of just unilaterally ending the terror of the al-Qassam Brigades.

This is probably the only form of the two-state solution that would work; anything based on modern ethnic borders in the West Bank really does start to look like a bantustan. Ultimately, the first step on the road to peace will be when the Palestinian Authority (and the Israeli state) acknowledge that people in Yatta and Tulkarm, not just al-Quds, deserve the option to have Israeli citizenship.

~~~~

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

How come some poor people deserve welfare, and others deserve disenfranchisement?

Haredim are the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

"How come some poor people deserve welfare, and the Taliban doesn't?" is your question.
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Vosem
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« Reply #407 on: March 28, 2023, 03:50:17 PM »


Haredim are the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

"How come some poor people deserve welfare, and the Taliban doesn't?" is your question.

Right, right. So, how are we going to determine if someone is officially Haredi? We're going to need some official government procedures for this. Are we going to go by appearance? Perhaps smell? Blood quantum? Do they get welfare if they vote the correct way?

(Are there any other groups that should be excluded for political/racial/religious grounds? Heck, I live in the Cleveland area, and there's an Afghan-American community here; sometimes I encounter a father with two sons on a hiking trail by my home. Do we need to make sure none of them have Taliban sympathies?)

Heck, maybe we should think about privileges besides voting. Should these people really be allowed professional licenses? Citizenship? Fair trials? (You wouldn't let someone in the Taliban have a fair trial, would you?)
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #408 on: March 28, 2023, 03:50:30 PM »

To our Israeli posters, what is the sentiment on the ground today? Are people starting to go back to their everyday lives or is the mobilization continuing? How are people reacting to Ben Gvir's planned militia? Is it seen as a serious threat?
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GALeftist
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« Reply #409 on: March 28, 2023, 04:21:51 PM »
« Edited: March 28, 2023, 04:26:32 PM by GALeftist »

What would be threatening is incorporating Gaza: Gaza is a huge Arab city with a sky-high fertility rate and if you include it in "between the Jordan and the Sea" then a Jewish demographic majority is impossible. But there is no reason for Gaza to be part of that state (and as the June 2007 civil conflict showed, Gaza does not even really seem that interested in being part of a state with the West Bank); its history, political preferences, and economy are completely different. Nor is there any particular reason for Israeli ultranationalists to want it, which is why it was easier to withdraw from 2004 than the religiously significant West Bank. There is no reason that, when a government arises there that chooses peace, Gaza couldn't be a prosperous independent port (with extensive natural gas reserves) separate from both Israel and Egypt. Some argument might exist that Israel would have to pay Gaza reparations to apologize for bombing it repeatedly instead of just unilaterally ending the terror of the al-Qassam Brigades.

This is probably the only form of the two-state solution that would work; anything based on modern ethnic borders in the West Bank really does start to look like a bantustan. Ultimately, the first step on the road to peace will be when the Palestinian Authority (and the Israeli state) acknowledge that people in Yatta and Tulkarm, not just al-Quds, deserve the option to have Israeli citizenship.

So this might be nice from some perspectives as something approximating an easy way out, but there are a number of key flaws with your reasoning here. I think before getting into any of that, though, it is worth noting that even just annexing the West Bank and granting Israeli citizenship to all people in the former Mandatory Palestine excepting the Gaza Strip would yield a nation with 5 million Arab citizens out of a nation of about 12.5 million. Not a majority, of course, but not an insignificant change either, and the Israeli right would probably be severely kneecapped in the short term and have to significantly change long-term.

The first major issue is that the current situation of Gaza is quite simply untenable. Its population density is almost on par with that of Hong Kong and only getting higher. The PA would never consent to a 1 state solution without some sort of solution for this situation, nor should they. The obvious solution is to allow some citizens of Gaza to migrate to the new Israel-Palestine, but this hypothetical state is already over 40% Arab, so at some point that's going to become incompatible with a continued demographic Jewish majority.

The second major issue is that of Palestinian refugees, some 3 million of whom live outside of the former mandatory Palestine, mostly in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. It is impossible to overstate the importance of solving this issue; indeed, I'd say a solution is impossible without it. With a 1 state solution as it is usually construed, a single state constituting all of former Mandatory Palestine, this isn't that big of a deal, but if you're still trying to maintain a demographic Jewish majority this is yet another group of people you have to find a permanent solution for that doesn't include settling in the new state.

Perhaps you could have Israel just annex the West Bank unilaterally, but frankly I think that leaving those two issues permanently unresolved would incite just as much international condemnation as just unilateral annexation without extending citizenship.
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Vosem
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« Reply #410 on: March 28, 2023, 04:35:08 PM »
« Edited: March 28, 2023, 04:45:00 PM by Vosem »

So this might be nice from some perspectives as something approximating an easy way out, but there are a number of key flaws with your reasoning here. I think before getting into any of that, though, it is worth noting that even just annexing the West Bank and granting Israeli citizenship to all people in the former Mandatory Palestine excepting the Gaza Strip would yield a nation with 5 million Arab citizens out of a nation of about 12.5 million. Not a majority, of course, but not an insignificant change either, and the Israeli right would probably be severely kneecapped in the short term and have to significantly change long-term.

The first major issue is that the current situation of Gaza is quite simply untenable. Its population density is almost on par with that of Hong Kong and only getting higher. The PA would never consent to a 1 state solution without some sort of solution for this situation, nor should they. The obvious solution is to allow some citizens of Gaza to migrate to the new Israel-Palestine, but this hypothetical state is already over 40% Arab, so at some point that's going to become incompatible with a continued demographic Jewish majority.

The whole point is that it isn't going to be incompatible; if you take Gaza out of the equation, Jewish fertility rates are higher, immigration is overwhelmingly Jewish (or Jewish-adjacent, particularly from eastern Europe), and emigration is overwhelmingly Palestinian. Unless the government changes its immigration policy radically (or multiple different trends within Israel itself reverse), the arrangement would be sustainable ~forever (or until the really really really far future).

This is a far-future prediction (ie, a prediction of something that I think will happen >10 years into the future); much like many of my other far-future predictions, it is written with many underlying assumptions ('trendlines/sometimes second derivatives will continue moving in the directions they are moving now'), and it ignores 'unknown unknowns'. It is possible, and perhaps likely, that whatever historical trend will change Israel and Palestine the most over the next 20-30 years is something we are not even discussing in this thread. (Some of my other far-future predictions involve fairly radical economic changes happening.) I think the state that would result from this happening decades from now would be substantially less than 40% Arab. A further consequence of this movement being successful would be the PA getting destroyed or neutered (maybe some successor to it would exist in a federalist scenario).

In general, far-left and far-right discourse both often assume that poor populations must have higher fertility than rich populations, which was true for most of the 20th century but has really come apart in the 21st. CIA World Factbook records a higher 2023 fertility rate estimate for the US than for Brazil, for instance. Many developing countries -- such as India, which once had such high fertility that the famous far-right novel Camp of the Saints simply assumes the world will inevitably be overrun by Indians -- have fertility rates below replacement and falling fast. Birthrates lag TFR, but it is already basically baked in that the world will reach a population peak sometime in the 2040s or 2050s and afterwards global population is likely to fall really rapidly.

The second major issue is that of Palestinian refugees, some 3 million of whom live outside of the former mandatory Palestine, mostly in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. It is impossible to overstate the importance of solving this issue; indeed, I'd say a solution is impossible without it. With a 1 state solution as it is usually construed, a single state constituting all of former Mandatory Palestine, this isn't that big of a deal, but if you're still trying to maintain a demographic Jewish majority this is yet another group of people you have to find a permanent solution for that doesn't include settling in the new state.

Like in any other democracy, immigration policy is going to remain a live political issue in Israel forever, but I doubt any kind of Jewish-majority state would enact a friendly immigration policy to people who identify as Palestinian refugees. My long-term guess is that these people assimilate into the societies in which they're living. (Given how many there are, I frankly question whether some kind of hypothetical militarily-triumphant Palestine would actually let all of them return. The world has long since moved on.)
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Sestak
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« Reply #411 on: March 28, 2023, 05:15:11 PM »

why is everyone getting riled up over some stupid post by the 12 year old child? This is the international board; usually folks here know better.
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« Reply #412 on: March 28, 2023, 06:08:18 PM »

Haredim are the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

"How come some poor people deserve welfare, and the Taliban doesn't?" is your question.

Right, right. So, how are we going to determine if someone is officially Haredi? We're going to need some official government procedures for this. Are we going to go by appearance? Perhaps smell? Blood quantum? Do they get welfare if they vote the correct way?

(Are there any other groups that should be excluded for political/racial/religious grounds? Heck, I live in the Cleveland area, and there's an Afghan-American community here; sometimes I encounter a father with two sons on a hiking trail by my home. Do we need to make sure none of them have Taliban sympathies?)

Heck, maybe we should think about privileges besides voting. Should these people really be allowed professional licenses? Citizenship? Fair trials? (You wouldn't let someone in the Taliban have a fair trial, would you?)

Haredim are a small sect of Judaism. Al Qaeda/the Taliban are a small sect of Afghans. Most members of either group would self-identify as such (if not with that same term).

I'm a Conservative Jew, actually, so this is quite like one of those Afghan-Americans saying that people who self-identify as a member of Taliban shouldn't get voting rights. Nobody would have an objection.

In fact, if this was said by another one of our more bigoted posters, the response would be much less severe. Haredim who actually pay taxes/don't live in the settlements should get full voting rights (and even those who don't should get full individual rights)
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Vosem
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« Reply #413 on: March 28, 2023, 08:22:19 PM »

Haredim are the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

"How come some poor people deserve welfare, and the Taliban doesn't?" is your question.

Right, right. So, how are we going to determine if someone is officially Haredi? We're going to need some official government procedures for this. Are we going to go by appearance? Perhaps smell? Blood quantum? Do they get welfare if they vote the correct way?

(Are there any other groups that should be excluded for political/racial/religious grounds? Heck, I live in the Cleveland area, and there's an Afghan-American community here; sometimes I encounter a father with two sons on a hiking trail by my home. Do we need to make sure none of them have Taliban sympathies?)

Heck, maybe we should think about privileges besides voting. Should these people really be allowed professional licenses? Citizenship? Fair trials? (You wouldn't let someone in the Taliban have a fair trial, would you?)

Haredim are a small sect of Judaism. Al Qaeda/the Taliban are a small sect of Afghans. Most members of either group would self-identify as such (if not with that same term).

I'm a Conservative Jew, actually, so this is quite like one of those Afghan-Americans saying that people who self-identify as a member of Taliban shouldn't get voting rights. Nobody would have an objection.

In fact, if this was said by another one of our more bigoted posters, the response would be much less severe. Haredim who actually pay taxes/don't live in the settlements should get full voting rights (and even those who don't should get full individual rights)

Haredim are 2 million people and growing extremely rapidly; they are not, actually, a very small sect of Jews. (They used to be in the quite recent past, though). I am sympathetic to your position here: anyone who posts on AAD will know that I've called Satmar a malevolent cult. I think the problem of hyper-religious subgroups out-reproducing the rest of society is a problem that will eventually come for all First World societies, and Israel is simply ahead of the curve of the rest of us. Substantially I support the current protests because I think a Haredi-supported coalition getting to pack the Israeli Supreme Court would be a very negative outcome. (And my main objection to an 'only taxpayers get to vote' law in most societies would be slippery-slope stuff; disenfranchising anyone sets a dangerous precedent to some extent).

But taking away the right to vote based on personal beliefs is just making a mockery of any sort of democracy; you're preordaining the result at that point. Why hold the election at all?
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« Reply #414 on: March 28, 2023, 10:00:42 PM »

I think the problem of hyper-religious subgroups out-reproducing the rest of society is a problem that will eventually come for all First World societies, and Israel is simply ahead of the curve of the rest of us.

I don't see it. What groups in Christendom are really like the Haredim? The obvious examples are the Mennonites and Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe you can make a case for Calvinists in the Netherlands, but I don't know to what extent they segregate themselves from broader society. There are pietistic Lutherans in Finland but they are a very small group. Presumably there are other groups in other countries that I can't name, but I am comfortable in saying that none of them are significant. Evangelicals in Brazil and elsewhere don't count because they are part of broader society. The same is true of Mormons. I know you said the First World specifically, but I will also add here that I'm not aware of any groups like this in the Islamic world.

It seems self-evident that religious people are more fertile than irreligious people, and perhaps in the long run this will lead to increased religiosity in society. Groups like the Haredim being the beneficiaries appears to be a specifically Jewish phenomenon.
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« Reply #415 on: March 28, 2023, 11:02:28 PM »

To our Israeli posters, what is the sentiment on the ground today? Are people starting to go back to their everyday lives or is the mobilization continuing? How are people reacting to Ben Gvir's planned militia? Is it seen as a serious threat?

Now, this is going to be purely how I feel and interpret it, I could easily be wrong. The protestors are tired, and many of them are using this moment to rest. The feel yesterday was like a hangover. The hardcore protestors will continue until the legislation is fully scrapped, but they aren't that many numerically. There aren't going to be any huge protests or road blockages for now. However, people don't believe Netanyahu, and if he still tries to pass these laws in May the big protests will return. The phrase "tactical halt" is in many people's minds.

Many view Ben Gvir's militia as a big threat and aren't willing to let it happen. However they also know Bibi's promises are flimsy, and that it'll take a legislative process to establish the yellow shirts. They're waiting.
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« Reply #416 on: March 29, 2023, 01:31:26 AM »

To our Israeli posters, what is the sentiment on the ground today? Are people starting to go back to their everyday lives or is the mobilization continuing? How are people reacting to Ben Gvir's planned militia? Is it seen as a serious threat?
I don't think it's a "back to normal" atmosphere. There's very little faith in the negotiations hosted by the President, and regardless, this government has lost the legitimacy by many.
However, it was an exhausting three months and there's a holiday season soon. The protests will come back even stronger towards the summer
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #417 on: March 29, 2023, 09:25:36 AM »

I think the problem of hyper-religious subgroups out-reproducing the rest of society is a problem that will eventually come for all First World societies, and Israel is simply ahead of the curve of the rest of us.

I don't see it. What groups in Christendom are really like the Haredim? The obvious examples are the Mennonites and Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe you can make a case for Calvinists in the Netherlands, but I don't know to what extent they segregate themselves from broader society. There are pietistic Lutherans in Finland but they are a very small group. Presumably there are other groups in other countries that I can't name, but I am comfortable in saying that none of them are significant. Evangelicals in Brazil and elsewhere don't count because they are part of broader society. The same is true of Mormons. I know you said the First World specifically, but I will also add here that I'm not aware of any groups like this in the Islamic world.

It seems self-evident that religious people are more fertile than irreligious people, and perhaps in the long run this will lead to increased religiosity in society. Groups like the Haredim being the beneficiaries appears to be a specifically Jewish phenomenon.

To a certain degree, maybe.

There are a few places (notably Urk) with their own very distinctive social/political micro-climate.
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« Reply #418 on: March 29, 2023, 01:40:25 PM »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/29/benjamin-netanyahu-tells-joe-biden-stay-israeli-politics/

"Benjamin Netanyahu tells Joe Biden to stay out of Israeli politics"
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« Reply #419 on: March 29, 2023, 04:30:02 PM »


This seems to be a lot of the narrative on the Israeli right as of late. Leaving aside the laughable double standard, wonder if this is an attempt to rally the right behind the reform bill as a means of resisting foreign interference in the domestic sphere?
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
theflyingmongoose
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« Reply #420 on: March 29, 2023, 05:02:54 PM »

Channel 14 Direct Polls- the only firm to show the government above 60 seats since mid-February- has finally fallen below the threshold. Channel 14's final non-exit poll showed Likud at two more seats than they ended up getting.
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Death of a Salesman
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« Reply #421 on: March 29, 2023, 05:43:35 PM »

The comparison that obviously springs to mind when we look at current Israel is South Africa, and I do not mean this as it relates to the Palestinians. Rather, Bibi represents a coalition whose electoral reach exceeds their economic grasp. The failures of post-Botha South Africa offer a cautionary tale about the dangers of this.

I’m not sure what exactly you mean by this. Care to expand on it?

Over the past three decades, South Africa's demographic majority has embarked on a campaign of expropriation against the wealthier and former ruling minority. The response has been exit, since they no longer possess voice in a meaningful sense. This has not helped the country.

Israel politics has a similar dynamic. The Gush Dan liberals are not especially well-liked by UTJ or Shas, but they pay for the state and serve in the military. A Haredi ANC is not a sustainable path forward.
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Death of a Salesman
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« Reply #422 on: March 29, 2023, 05:45:15 PM »

Good of Netanyahu to not back down. He may lose now, but it is better to lose with conviction and courage than to surrender without taking a stand.

Nice to see it confirmed that the modern GOP is actually hostile to democracy.

This proposal is by definition making the judicial process more democratic. Now you can argue that’s a bad thing due to a nature of what a judiciary deals with but please stop with these nonsense talking points .

At its core democracy means that government belongs (and is responsible to) the public as a body, not to some sub-set thereof (whether that sub-set is one king, many oligarchs, or one political party is beside the point),

What Netanyahu is very obviously doing here - allowing simple majority to over-ride the court, and his government to potentially stack the court - is destructive to rule of law, and anti-democratic (much as when Republicans do similar things to stack courts and erode rule of law in the US). That's why people are protesting - because its destructive and obvious.

This is incoherent babble from a hardcore hack. Allowing the legislature to control the court is normal within the Westminster system and is a measure that most Democrats support. If Israel had a liberal government and a right-wing court chosen by a group of conservatives, all of you would support this. Your objection is that it reduces the power of the political faction you like. All of this moaning on about principles is utter nonsense.

If you don't want to understand the context behind why hundreds of thousands are out protesting this legislation, kindly just shut the hell up. We're tired and have better things to do than explaining this to foreigners who don't want to understand.

It's a little rich for someone with a Biden Harris poster in their bio to complain about foreigners talking about international politics.
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Death of a Salesman
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« Reply #423 on: March 29, 2023, 05:48:05 PM »


IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

Something alone those lines, or not granting suffrage to those who don't pay taxes, would be an effective way to ensure stability.
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TiltsAreUnderrated
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #424 on: March 29, 2023, 06:06:26 PM »

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

Something alone those lines, or not granting suffrage to those who don't pay taxes, would be an effective way to ensure stability.


It wouldn't be effective for a number of reasons, principally because it'd be even less likely to become law than the ideas you've dismissed as implausible.
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