What would the world look like if Czar Alexander II lived?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 05:54:57 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  History (Moderator: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  What would the world look like if Czar Alexander II lived?
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: What would the world look like if Czar Alexander II lived?  (Read 1060 times)
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,322
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: October 17, 2022, 01:03:42 AM »

I've been trying to learn more about Russian history lately, and the story of Alexander II really caught my attention. As I often say, I consider a "good" leader to be anyone who enacts positive reforms that distribute power and create inclusive institutions, even if they are still undeniably autocratic or authoritarian. This is because I believe meaningful change cannot happen without a solid foundation, and attempts at rapid reform often result in revolution, coups, and civil war.

Alexander II's story, to me, is another tale of the far left shooting itself in the foot. Here we had a forward-thinking ruler who-- although far from ideal-- clearly understood the need for fundamental reforms to the Russian sociopolitical system. Killing someone like this at a pivotal time in Russian history is a huge mistake in hindsight, as it led directly to the ascent of Alexander III, who extinguished all hope for meaningful change. But I would argue that actions like these are foreseeably stupid in the moment too, as they demonstrate a complete unwillingness to "take what you can get" when the opportunity affords itself. From what I've read about this assassination, modern leftists could learn many lessons from this ("Don't shoot a gift horse in the mouth" might be one).

If anyone here is more familiar with Russian history than me, is this assessment fair? How might things be different if Alexander II had lived longer?
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Moderator
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 54,123
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2022, 10:54:57 PM »

Radicalism will never care about "taking what you can get", its all about turning up the heat on the kettle until the pressure bursts and then in the midst of the chaos comes opportunity for the fringe to be mainstreamed.

Ultimately, this is exactly what happened in Russia.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Moderator
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 54,123
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2022, 10:57:15 PM »

If he had lived, but the question is how long does he have to live to achieve this end and what is that end precisely? He was in his sixties by that time and in the same generation as Queen Victoria/Kaiser Wilhelm I.

Alexander III with his reactionary views is still the heir and Nicholas II was also being indoctrinated by reactionary tutors during this same time frame.
Logged
PSOL
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,981


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2022, 05:28:41 PM »

Radicalism will never care about "taking what you can get", its all about turning up the heat on the kettle until the pressure bursts and then in the midst of the chaos comes opportunity for the fringe to be mainstreamed.

Ultimately, this is exactly what happened in Russia.
That was not “what they could get” in Russia and the “emancipation” was ultimately empty.

Ironic how you could defend a king after what he did to the most American revolution in Europe, with the suppression and deportation to break the Polish nation that was precipitate the broken norms all up to the 1917 revolution and Soviet Union.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Moderator
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 54,123
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2022, 12:06:03 AM »

Radicalism will never care about "taking what you can get", its all about turning up the heat on the kettle until the pressure bursts and then in the midst of the chaos comes opportunity for the fringe to be mainstreamed.

Ultimately, this is exactly what happened in Russia.
That was not “what they could get” in Russia and the “emancipation” was ultimately empty.

Ironic how you could defend a king after what he did to the most American revolution in Europe, with the suppression and deportation to break the Polish nation that was precipitate the broken norms all up to the 1917 revolution and Soviet Union.

1. I was responding to the OP.

2. "Most American Revolution in Europe"? I do not follow.
Logged
Orwell
JacksonHitchcock
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,413
United States
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2022, 12:21:31 PM »

Radicalism will never care about "taking what you can get", its all about turning up the heat on the kettle until the pressure bursts and then in the midst of the chaos comes opportunity for the fringe to be mainstreamed.

Ultimately, this is exactly what happened in Russia.
That was not “what they could get” in Russia and the “emancipation” was ultimately empty.

Ironic how you could defend a king after what he did to the most American revolution in Europe, with the suppression and deportation to break the Polish nation that was precipitate the broken norms all up to the 1917 revolution and Soviet Union.

1. I was responding to the OP.

2. "Most American Revolution in Europe"? I do not follow.

I believe PSOL means by the "Most American Revolution" is getting freedom for a certain subclass of individuals rather than the population at large. PSOL is a Socialist, so if my memory of his views is correct the emancipation of the Serfs is similar to the emancipation of the slaves in American history where the Bourgeoise is still in control of politics and society, compared to a state where the working class would have primary control.
Logged
PSOL
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,981


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2022, 06:13:08 PM »

Radicalism will never care about "taking what you can get", its all about turning up the heat on the kettle until the pressure bursts and then in the midst of the chaos comes opportunity for the fringe to be mainstreamed.

Ultimately, this is exactly what happened in Russia.
That was not “what they could get” in Russia and the “emancipation” was ultimately empty.

Ironic how you could defend a king after what he did to the most American revolution in Europe, with the suppression and deportation to break the Polish nation that was precipitate the broken norms all up to the 1917 revolution and Soviet Union.

1. I was responding to the OP.

2. "Most American Revolution in Europe"? I do not follow.

I believe PSOL means by the "Most American Revolution" is getting freedom for a certain subclass of individuals rather than the population at large. PSOL is a Socialist, so if my memory of his views is correct the emancipation of the Serfs is similar to the emancipation of the slaves in American history where the Bourgeoise is still in control of politics and society, compared to a state where the working class would have primary control.
No, I’m going broader then that. Congress Poland was divided on if they wanted emancipation at all, and would have a party system very close to the US at this time. That Liberty baby was strangled by the cruelty of Alex2 with the mothers and fathers of the revolution sent to Siberia.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 09:28:06 AM »

I mean, it could be different in a myriad different ways, as is always the case when important figures die because butterfly effects are powerful.

But if the unspoken premise of this thread is that Alexander II living longer would have prevented the Russian Revolution, I have to disagree. The Tsarist regime was already deeply sick by the time Alexander II came to power, and while he went a significant way toward improving things, even his "sweeping" reforms come off as too little, too late. By the time of his assassination, the reformist era of his reign had already long come to an end, and his policies had reverted to the same kind of stubborn conservatism that was the Romanov trademark (he seemed to have changed his mind again soon before his assassination, but what that would have meant concretely will forever remain speculation). Sooner or later he would have died anyway and passed the buck to his reactionary blowhard son first and then his incompetent reactionary blowhard grandson. Maybe the reforms might have helped stave off revolution for a time, and maybe the revolution would have looked very different than IRL, but some form of radical change was probably coming either way.

There are often similar romantic what-ifs conjured up about the Habsburg empire or the Kaiserreich, and those regimes were at least internally effective enough that they could have survived under better circumstances, but regardless, I find it weird how some people are so attached to the idea that they "could have been fixed" them in the same way fans talk about a toxic lead in a romantic novel. At the end of the day, no, you probably can't fix them, and even if you could I'm not sure it's worth thinking about it too deeply when they're clearly the problem to begin with.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.04 seconds with 11 queries.