Is it narrow-minded to personally reject Catholicism because of its teachings on LGBT issues?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

"Personally reject" basically means refuse to ever be a part of it yourself, and if brought up in it to actually leave the church, and join a different affirming church if you're still into that (because of course I know plenty of people who did that, yada yada...)

I ask because maybe I'm interpreting things wrong but some people here despite being on the left seem to think that it is, or is still "wrong" in some way.

[If my soul was made of stone]

Reject personally: no
Reject "personally" the way BRTD does so performatively: yes

[Statilius the Epicurean]

As far as I understand Catholicism has various arguments for its truthfulness, such as its geographical spread, apostolic succession, preservation from error, miracles, the lives of saints, the art it's produced etc.. If one finds these convincing such that you believe on the balance of evidence Catholicism is likely to be the true Church on earth, except for the fact that its teaching on LGBT issues disqualifies it, then that's probably being narrow-minded. In that situation you're probably wrong and the likely true Church is right. But I do think we should expect the true religion to teach something close to what appears to be commonsensically moral in light of our own reason: so if you're on the fence, not sure if Catholicism's arguments are true or not, and its teaching on LGBT issues is the tiebreaker, I don't think that would be narrow-minded.

[afleitch]

I mean, I left the Church because of it. I left Christianity for different reasons.

I broadly agree with the previous poster. My sexuality is both my truth, and as an iteration of human sexuality when expressed in line with either a liberal or conservative understanding of sex and relationships is to most people in my community, 'commonsensically moral' or perhaps more accurately, amoral.

If the Church's position is not in line with that, particularly when (as in other denominations) it has chosen to hyper focus on that issue by following secular societies/moralities lead on it and forge a public and private reactionary contrarianism in response, then it can't be 'the truth'. And it weakly reacts, rather than leads.

So it was an act of personal care to walk away from it.

[TheReckoning]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

[afleitch]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

[TheReckoning]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto to millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

This may have been true as recently as a decade ago, but religious traditionalists have become dab hands at cognitive dissonance in the era of neo-nationalism.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Wouldn't that also be true for people who think God agrees with everything in the denomination they just happened to be raised in? That's sort of the logical conclusion if ethnic background and one's upbringing was the sole determinator of religious affiliation as some here seem to wish was the case.

[Xeuma]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto to millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

This may have been true as recently as a decade ago, but religious traditionalists have become dab hands at cognitive dissonance in the era of neo-nationalism.

Which traditionalists where? I'm in several tradcath discords where there are some people like that, but for the most part its like being on a revolutionary left forum back in the day, a lot of anti-America nonsense posted by suburban white kids.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto to millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

This may have been true as recently as a decade ago, but religious traditionalists have become dab hands at cognitive dissonance in the era of neo-nationalism.

Which traditionalists where? I'm in several tradcath discords where there are some people like that, but for the most part its like being on a revolutionary left forum back in the day, a lot of anti-America nonsense posted by suburban white kids.

Less traditionalists in the specifically Catholic sense and more in the broadly orthodox/conservative sense. Think of all the not-quite-trad figures who were wholly in the tank for Trump two years ago, analogous types of people in Protestantism and Orthodox Judaism even more so.

[Xeuma]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto to millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

This may have been true as recently as a decade ago, but religious traditionalists have become dab hands at cognitive dissonance in the era of neo-nationalism.

Which traditionalists where? I'm in several tradcath discords where there are some people like that, but for the most part its like being on a revolutionary left forum back in the day, a lot of anti-America nonsense posted by suburban white kids.

Less traditionalists in the specifically Catholic sense and more in the broadly orthodox/conservative sense. Think of all the not-quite-trad figures who were wholly in the tank for Trump two years ago, analogous types of people in Protestantism and Orthodox Judaism even more so.

You mean like the generic not-hippie boomer / every gen X? At least the ones in the pews, anyways?

[jojoju1998]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

[Aurelius]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

Ok, and?

[jojoju1998]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

Ok, and?

And to reject the Catholic church just because one disagrees with a sliver of Catholic teaching, is foolish.

[Aurelius]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

Ok, and?

And to reject the Catholic church just because one disagrees with a sliver of Catholic teaching, is foolish.

Not if it's something very important to you, no. I don't care about their broader social teaching if they treat me as a second class citizen.

(Catholic social teaching as a whole is awful, too. But that's not the point)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

Ok, and?

And to reject the Catholic church just because one disagrees with a sliver of Catholic teaching, is foolish.

Really LGBT issues are just the most obvious and easy to attack example, they're not the only reason people who convert to liberal churches. I could list a very long list of reasons I could never be Catholic. But it's also a very "personal" one, what should a person who wants to have a same-sex wedding in a church do? For them that's not a very small slice of Catholic teaching and would be a big issue.

[Aurelius]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

Ok, and?

And to reject the Catholic church just because one disagrees with a sliver of Catholic teaching, is foolish.

Really LGBT issues are just the most obvious and easy to attack example, they're not the only reason people who convert to liberal churches. I could list a very long list of reasons I could never be Catholic. But it's also a very "personal" one, what should a person who wants to have a same-sex wedding in a church do? For them that's not a very small slice of Catholic teaching and would be a big issue.

As a gay I am not going to participate in a religion that treats me as a second class citizen. It really is as simple as that.

[Ferguson97]

LGBT issues are just one sliver of a whole gigantic pie known as catholic teaching.

Not all slivers are of equal size and importance though.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

It's 2022...a significant number of American Catholic parishes have LGBT groups/social circles. Mine and many of those closest to me do. Someone just walked up to me after mass last night to openly ask me if I was interested in it. Is it so psychotic that the Church is a conservative global institution led by geriatrics and thus two generations behind the most liberal nation in the world? Not sure why the institution's view on one country's political issues matters at all - I disagree with the Church on nearly all of them.

This is really not an important issue in the grand scheme of things, and it's hard to be more impacted by their position than I am.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto to millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

This may have been true as recently as a decade ago, but religious traditionalists have become dab hands at cognitive dissonance in the era of neo-nationalism.

Which traditionalists where? I'm in several tradcath discords where there are some people like that, but for the most part its like being on a revolutionary left forum back in the day, a lot of anti-America nonsense posted by suburban white kids.

Less traditionalists in the specifically Catholic sense and more in the broadly orthodox/conservative sense. Think of all the not-quite-trad figures who were wholly in the tank for Trump two years ago, analogous types of people in Protestantism and Orthodox Judaism even more so.

You mean like the generic not-hippie boomer / every gen X? At least the ones in the pews, anyways?

Can you reword this? I think we're now thinking of most of the same types of people, but I'm not positive.

[Xeuma]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Yeah. Conservatives and traditionalists should take note.

Traditionalists are far more likely to hold religious views that don’t make sense to them/that they have some disagreements with than reformists, though. Holding onto to millennia-old teaching on ethical issues is naturally going to create more dissonance than changing their religious views to match whatever is “popular” at the time.

This may have been true as recently as a decade ago, but religious traditionalists have become dab hands at cognitive dissonance in the era of neo-nationalism.

Which traditionalists where? I'm in several tradcath discords where there are some people like that, but for the most part its like being on a revolutionary left forum back in the day, a lot of anti-America nonsense posted by suburban white kids.

Less traditionalists in the specifically Catholic sense and more in the broadly orthodox/conservative sense. Think of all the not-quite-trad figures who were wholly in the tank for Trump two years ago, analogous types of people in Protestantism and Orthodox Judaism even more so.

You mean like the generic not-hippie boomer / every gen X? At least the ones in the pews, anyways?

Can you reword this? I think we're now thinking of most of the same types of people, but I'm not positive.

I'm thinking of people like my parents or grandparents. They're against abortion, gay marriage, and the whole lot of other contentious social issues but resolutely on the Republican line of argumentation. That is, there's not any consideration of Catholic social teaching. Neither has ever pulled up to a TLM with me.

[PSOL]

Pro tip: if your God happens to agree with you on everything that you think, odds are you’ve created God in your own image, and not the other way around.

Being LGBTQ+ encompasses one’s whole being. To reject that and not only be chaste but to view yourself as a sinful being who willfully allowed the devils in you is actively harmful. You have no escape from self-love and self-respect needed to generate positive living standards for yourself and weakens that chance for others.

I don’t know what aflietch is doing defending his right to be human and to be able to make decisions for himself through paragraphs of text, and I don’t know what the rest are doing arguing or pondering over a very simple answer.