The French burkini ban is unthinkable
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  The French burkini ban is unthinkable
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Author Topic: The French burkini ban is unthinkable  (Read 1304 times)
David Hume
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« on: September 24, 2022, 11:55:46 PM »
« edited: September 24, 2022, 11:59:08 PM by David Hume »

French court rules against burkini swimwear, allows topless women in Grenoble public pools
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/06/22/burkini-ban-france-court-rules/7697174001/

Woman cannot even choose to cover their bodies in swimming pools. This is ridiculous and terrible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/french-police-make-woman-remove-burkini-on-nice-beach


If this happened here, it would be ruled as blatant violations of freedom of expression, religious freedom, and sexual discrimination. If someone proposes policies like this, both the left and right would condemn him.

I know France has a different constitution and restrict religious expressions in public, but was shocked that they can go that far. This should be condemned by the international community.
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
theflyingmongoose
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2022, 09:39:20 PM »

If you insist on wearing a burka in a pool, chances are you aren't doing it willingly.
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SInNYC
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 02:46:44 PM »

If you insist on wearing a burka in a pool, chances are you aren't doing it willingly.

A burkini isnt a burka. It was explicitly developed (by a Moslem) to be modest but functional.
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NYDem
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2022, 03:28:44 PM »

If you insist on wearing a burka in a pool, chances are you aren't doing it willingly.

It’s not the state’s job to force people to be free
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2022, 10:00:20 AM »
« Edited: October 05, 2022, 12:46:54 PM by Middle-aged Europe »

If you insist on wearing a burka in a pool, chances are you aren't doing it willingly.

Like a previous poster already mentioned, a "burkini" is not the same thing as a burqa (or niqab for that matter), since it doesn't cover your face. It also isn't that different from the swimwear Western women used to wear around 1900, except that a burkini is of course more aerodynamic in design.

As for the "voluntary" part... it is a bit condescending to always assume that a Muslim women didn't choose to wear a hijab for herself. Speaking from experience here in Berlin, it's not too unusual to see mixed groups of young Muslim women where one half wears a hijab and the other half doesn't. I think it's a bit too easy an assumption to make that all the hijab wearers were forced to, and the hijab non-wearers were not.

A different matter entirely are places like Iran though, where it is mandated by law. These laws are inappropriately restricting freedom... and there's of course the underlying issue of general miscontent with the political system that sparked recent protests there.

Speaking of which, lately it has been a subject of debate in Germany whether it is constitutional to ban women who refuse to cover their breasts from using public pools. If you say that women shouldn't be too uncovered (bare breasts), but also not too covered (through "burkinis") you are creating a very specific, narrow norm everyone should abide to. You know, almost like they do in Iran.

Of course, in a strict sense nobody does anything purely voluntarily. Muslim women who wear a hijab "voluntarily" do so in most cases because they were raised that way or because of the society they grew up in. But that's where we enter a more philosophical spectrum of where the free will begins and where it ends or whether such thing exists at all.
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If my soul was made of stone
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« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2022, 09:52:59 PM »

My contempt for the menfolk trying to deprive Our Women of their innate self-determination is clear from my support for depriving Our Women of their innate self-determination. Also I have eight smiley-face stickers on my Respecting Women Behavior Chart now so you legally owe me a blowjob.
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Aurelius
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2022, 01:14:55 AM »

If you insist on wearing a burka in a pool, chances are you aren't doing it willingly.

It’s not the state’s job to force people to be free
And it's not like France hasn't had some very, very bloody experience trying to force people to be "free" from religion. I'm sure some people in the Vendee remember that history.

Laicite is definitely one of the worst legacies of the French Revolution.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2022, 09:08:13 PM »

Speaking of which, lately it has been a subject of debate in Germany whether it is constitutional to ban women who refuse to cover their breasts from using public pools. If you say that women shouldn't be too uncovered (bare breasts), but also not too covered (through "burkinis") you are creating a very specific, narrow norm everyone should abide to. You know, almost like they do in Iran.

I think this is the crux of it. Plenty of countries restrict either too much clothing or too little in public spaces without coming in for the sort of opprobrium these Continental European countries now do (including, as I understand it, France itself in the past when topless swimming was more ingrained in the culture there). It's the creation of a narrow window of acceptability that's disconcerting and starts to look like social control for the sake of social control.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2022, 09:31:36 PM »

If you insist on wearing a burka in a pool, chances are you aren't doing it willingly.

I appreciate your taking a break from whining about Europeans unprompted in thread after thread to mindlessly parrot a European talking point that has no relevance here. Keep up the good posting!
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