The exodus of the blue avatars (user search)
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  The exodus of the blue avatars (search mode)
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Author Topic: The exodus of the blue avatars  (Read 6585 times)
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« on: September 22, 2022, 12:02:28 PM »

One of the biggest problems outside what PQG mentioned is also the fact that USGD is not even fostered for actual debate or discussion anymore. Some of the biggest problems are this :

1. When blue avatars post it’s usually followed up by 5-6 red avatar posters responding in the harshest way possible and given that red avatars outnumber blue avatars , that makes it really hard to debate .

2. The view that many democrats have now days is that being a Republican itself is illegitimate so strawmanning every thing a blue avatar says is ok and calling one side traitors or terrorist enablers is ok . Why would blue avatars even want to debate these people and frankly it’s why I have gotten much more aggressive in my responses cause if we are gonna be attacked like this then why should we respond in serious or nice ways either .

3. Moderators don’t have clear rules on what is or what isn’t ok in culture war threads because frankly in a political forum it should be ok to post anything that is in the mainstream of public debate on an issue . It is why I said there should be a megathread on this so you can stop the clutter as well

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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2022, 12:56:12 PM »

The fact that few Republicans don't want to participate in a forum about election results and maps when so many believe that elections now are rigged and illegitimate is hardly surprising.

Another issue is that Atlas posters have always been significantly more educated than the general population, either graduated or in college, so Trump scaring off so many educated voters from the GOP definitely had an impact on our membership.


Not really and btw if you include atlas discord then the blue to red avatar discrepancy is no where near as large as it is on here
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2022, 01:24:06 PM »


There are instances where threads vehemently attacking the GOP for things are roundly applauded while threads pointing out Democrats' failures are quickly met with "why is this an issue?" or "not a problem. Next!".


Many people including myself would strongly argue that the organization known as the Republican Party and the politicians that represent it are not as honest, moral or reasonable as they used to be pre-Trump. We would also argue that the current problems with the GOP are MUCH much more serious (and dangerous) than the current problems with the Democratic Party, and they are in fact putting the lives of poor people, women and minorities at risk even more than they usually do, as well as the very democracy that is the fabric of America.

You may not agree with that, but many people do, and the evidence seems to bear that out as well. If ANY political party is doing that, regardless of their place on the political spectrum or what country we're talking about, it's reasonably follows that many people will attack them and cheer when others attack them until they get their s__t together and go back to being a "normal" party that focuses on policy and supports democracy.

I guess blue avatars don't want to have to defend the GOP's actions? Their grievance seems to be that their party is under attack, but they haven't considered the full context of what their party is doing to the country and WHY people are attacking them more than usual. That's my take anyways.

So I guess a more accurate description would be that Atlas in 2022 is an "anti-GOP echo chamber", seeing as how the GOP and the right wing itself are two very different things that have a lot overlap with each other. Many right wingers have rejected the post-Trump GOP and become independents.

I mean this post embodies the problem with how things have gotten on here because too many democratic or progressive posters on here come in with the idea that to be a republican is to be enabling treason or terrorism and take that belief as objective reality when it is not . Like how the hell do you expect then for republicans on here not to be very aggressive towards you guys or post at all . Also a political forum should allow any posts that are in line with current public debate on the issues and this forum does not do that . Take Atlasia where a bill was taken down even though it was word for word a bill that was passed into law in an actual state .


This is why I will say I actually have much more substantive debates on conservacord than I do here and while it may be hard to believe, well that’s cause of how unbelievably terrible USGD has gotten at that here .
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2022, 02:34:05 PM »

btw if you include atlas discord then the blue to red avatar discrepancy is no where near as large as it is on here

Maybe for LokCord v2.0, definitely not for PhilCord (whose most active members are disproportionately S-avatars) or AAD.

I will say that I dislike USGD for similar reasons that previous posters have mentioned, and I deliberately to respond to USGD posts in other threads to try and steer activity away from that cesspool. My opinion of certain D-avatars who frequently post and start threads there has gone down during the Biden administration.

Isn’t Philcord basically the atlas left of center cord
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2022, 02:45:42 PM »

The fact that few Republicans don't want to participate in a forum about election results and maps when so many believe that elections now are rigged and illegitimate is hardly surprising.

Another issue is that Atlas posters have always been significantly more educated than the general population, either graduated or in college, so Trump scaring off so many educated voters from the GOP definitely had an impact on our membership.


Not really and btw if you include atlas discord then the blue to red avatar discrepancy is no where near as large as it is on here

I get there is a generational gap here and maybe as a millennial I just don't and can't  "understand," but anyone who posts on "Atlas discord" but is afraid to post here is a total pussy and should be laughed at.

I mean there are even a good deal of dem posters who post more on discord than here . It all depends on what you want from the site . If you want to actually debate or have substantive discussions with someone than discord is clearly a better medium but this is a better medium for discussion about past elections , alternative history or just if you want to comment on the news but aren’t really interested in debating .

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OSR stands with Israel
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2022, 04:08:47 PM »

The fact that few Republicans don't want to participate in a forum about election results and maps when so many believe that elections now are rigged and illegitimate is hardly surprising.

Another issue is that Atlas posters have always been significantly more educated than the general population, either graduated or in college, so Trump scaring off so many educated voters from the GOP definitely had an impact on our membership.


Not really and btw if you include atlas discord then the blue to red avatar discrepancy is no where near as large as it is on here

I get there is a generational gap here and maybe as a millennial I just don't and can't  "understand," but anyone who posts on "Atlas discord" but is afraid to post here is a total pussy and should be laughed at.

I mean there are even a good deal of dem posters who post more on discord than here . It all depends on what you want from the site . If you want to actually debate or have substantive discussions with someone than discord is clearly a better medium but this is a better medium for discussion about past elections , alternative history or just if you want to comment on the news but aren’t really interested in debating .

Why in the world you seem to think that "there are Democrats on the lolcord too" would affect my opinion at all is beyond me,  but I'll reiterate again that it does not.

Don’t you agree the point of a debate is to try to convince others you are right
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2022, 08:30:46 PM »

PiT's post really gets to the heart of the matter.  Atlas is less hospitable than ever before to serious or contemplative discussion. 

There's no point engaging when the red avatar mafia is increasingly only capable of bad faith.  Anything that doesn't fit their script they simply ignore.   

There are many examples I can give really of this . There are many threads where red avatar hacks like Badger bring me up even if I haven’t posted on them and then go on to personally attack me or strawman me . If I respond in a snarky way , other red  avatars instead of criticizing Badger think that I am the one who has become the jerk there so at this point I stopped really caring what many of them think .

In fact if I get criticism from these types of posters , then I know I am likely correct at this point .

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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2022, 09:27:44 PM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe. And since they've rarely critically thought about this, they become defensive. They view counterarguments as a personal attack. "I'm being attacked for my ideas." Now, there are many conservatives who DO know how to defend their beliefs and can competently engage in an exchange of ideas. The problem is that because the Republican Party has become the party of anti-intellectualism, the conservatives who do know how to debate don't really identify as Republicans and don't don the blue avatar.

You know one of the blue avatars who posted on this thread has a degree in Physics and another conservative who left has a literal PHD.

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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2022, 09:39:36 PM »

Btw i responded to a post once by ghost of ruin where he called for the department of Justice to prosecute republicans as terrorists by calling him a fascist and it was my post that was deleted . This deletion proves moderation bias.
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2022, 12:02:12 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

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lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

no less than progressives are in
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Computer89
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2022, 01:19:41 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

no less than progressives are in
A lot of progressives spend time socializing and debating with mainstream Democrats / center-left people who are their love-hate allies against the right wing. Rose Twitter is the loudest progressive voice, but that doesn't mean it's where most progressives actually are.

TBF, when we're talking about groups as broad as "blue avatars", the nuanced destinations between "progressives" and "center-left Democrats" is basically irrelevant.

Blue and Red avatar has changed massively since 2015/16 for sure. In 2015 you had a wide variety of people on here from tea party types, populists, liberal to moderate republicans, libertarian republicans , blue dog democrats, socialists, labor democrats and of course the partisans.

Now days the partisans pretty much make up each group and the amount of "RINOs" and "DINOs" that are on here have reduced massively. In 2015/16 it was not uncommon to see on USGD a group of blue and red avatars being in support of one policy together while blue and red avatars were opposed to it together. Now days that is pretty much gone as RL polarization has hit the forum
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Computer89
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2022, 12:35:42 PM »

This thread exposes a fundamental "disconnect" between red and blue avatars, which helps to explain why this forum has become more of an "echo chamber" than it was previously. Many red avatars seem to believe that the Republican Party is an illegitimate, anti-American party, bent on introducing fascism and authoritarianism into the United States. They view Republicans as being a threat to their livelihoods, to those of their loved ones, and to those of minority groups who they see as uniquely vulnerable. Thus, it is no surprise that red avatars would be interested in engaging with those who they believe is the enemy, and it is no surprise that they would not tolerate any arguments or positions deriving from what they consider to be a place of hatred, of anger, and of intolerance.

Blue avatars, on their part, believe that they are unwelcome here, that there is an inherent ideological bias among the moderators, and that these bias has enabled red avatars to get away with behaviors for which they would be punished. And yes, it is true that many Republicans also believe that the Democratic Party is illegitimate and that it is extremist, out of touch with their values and their perception of what this country should be. That adds "fuel to the fire", if I can use that phrase, and it makes blue avatars reluctant to back down from their positions or to defend those positions as they view them necessary. Political polarization, therefore, has sorted people into clearly defined, diametrically opposed ideological camps, and these camps reduce the incentive for bipartisanship and for magnanimity towards others.

I think this post is inaccurate and I can tell you as a blue avatar when many red avatars call people that I know terrorist enabler or traitors , that I have zero interest in being nice to those posters and I more or less will respond in an extremely hostile way to those posters and there should be no surprise of that. This is why we have become so hostile to the mods as well because rather than putting a stop to all this rhetoric they have effectively enabled it cause many deep down also believe it and I can tell you that has greatly alienated blue avatars and conservatives from here especially given they do stamp down equivalent rhetoric from the right on here.

I btw also have proposed solutions that would greatly reduce the heat on here and all of them have been rejected . One of them was to create a sticky mega thread regarding LGBT issues(particularly Trans Issues) or really any culture war issue at this point if you want to reduce the heat here.
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OSR stands with Israel
Computer89
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2022, 05:21:15 PM »

Your argument then, is that the forum is a fair place for both sides to make their arguments? That there is no bias present among moderation, or generally? I have said in the past that this forum certainly does give considerable leeway to posters, far more so than what you see on many other websites. I've constantly raised the example of AlternateHistory.com, whose administrator, Ian the Admin, and moderators, primarily CalBear, are utterly ruthless towards those who they see as violating their forum's policies. Oftentimes, they tend to be particularly harsh with those who express right-leaning or conservative viewpoints. We are lucky that such is not the case here.

I haven't been to AH.com in years, so I can't speak to their moderation practicies.

But no, I do not believe that there is left-wing bias among the moderators. They are exceptionally fair. If anything they give slightly more leeway to conservatives so as not to appear biased. (See, for example: the fact that DeadPrez, Mr. Reactionary, Fuzzy et al. haven't been permabanned.)

Really Ghost of Ruin made a post calling Republicans terrorists and how the justice department should go after them as that and then when I called him a fascist it was my post that was deleted. You don't think there is a left wing bias because you think left wingers should be allowed to use whatever super charged rhetoric you want against right wingers but we can't do the same back plain and simple.

If this forum didn't have biased moderation: Badger, Ghost of Ruin for example would have been temp banned by now.
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Computer89
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2022, 02:18:31 AM »

None of the people being mentioned in this thread should be banned. If they hurt your sensitive feelings so badly just put them on ignore. I cannot stand self-victimization!

Well I was saying who should be banned on the criteria used against right winger's here. Atlas btw didnt always use to be like this as until a couple years ago, it was extremely reluctant to pretty much ban any posters at all unless they were socks/spammer.

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Computer89
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2022, 03:08:39 AM »

- I think the belief that there's been a blue avi flight is dubious in general.

^this I think is also relevant. In some ways, it feels like this forum is a bit to the right of where it was when in I first signed up, back in 2012.

How has the forum become more conservative the past year or so. Like yah it was pretty conservative on COVID restrictions by late 2021 for a forum that is compromised with posters on the left but other than that I don't see how it has gotten more conservative.
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Computer89
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2022, 03:14:48 AM »

- I think the belief that there's been a blue avi flight is dubious in general.

^this I think is also relevant. In some ways, it feels like this forum is a bit to the right of where it was when in I first signed up, back in 2012.

Your program is malfunctioning, I've been posting for 10 years
How has the forum become more conservative the past year or so. Like yah it was pretty conservative on COVID restrictions by late 2021 for a forum that is compromised with posters on the left but other than that I don't see how it has gotten more conservative.

Well you are not the first poster to say this cause there are other posters who talk about how this forum have moved to the right since 2018/19 as well and that is pretty hard to see.

I will say the only way you could argue that it has moved right since say 2015 is that in 2015 there were many more socialists and outright communists posting on Atlas along with more outright liberal Republicans but that is more due to the forum getting way way more partisan in general and RL polarization effecting the forum.

That means though the forum is far more hackishly pro Dems than it was before and far more hostile to Republican posters than it was before
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Computer89
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2022, 10:46:51 PM »

I think the fact we have lost so many downright horrible and bigoted posters to conserve a cord is a good thing. Echo chamber smeco chamber, most of the people who've Departed frankly never made a good post out of 100.

What’s your opinion on posters like :

SunriseAroundtheWorld
TJ in Oregon
Lfromnj
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Computer89
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2022, 12:46:11 PM »

This place is a bit of an echo chamber to an extent (see PA-Sen thread as a prime example), but what do you expect? You get people are more likely to be online, and consequently far more likely to be liberal than the typical population. It’s a lot like Reddit in that regard.

Except this is not really a case when you look at Atlas related discords where you would see the parity between red and blue avatars is no where near as stark as it is on here. It kinda shows more or less the problem is RL polarization has hit this site hard and red and blue avatars no longer can discuss politics with each other without everything becoming a mess.

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Computer89
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2022, 01:03:33 PM »

This place is a bit of an echo chamber to an extent (see PA-Sen thread as a prime example), but what do you expect? You get people are more likely to be online, and consequently far more likely to be liberal than the typical population. It’s a lot like Reddit in that regard.

Except this is not really a case when you look at Atlas related discords where you would see the parity between red and blue avatars is no where near as stark as it is on here. It kinda shows more or less the problem is RL polarization has hit this site hard and red and blue avatars no longer can discuss politics with each other without everything becoming a mess.



You know what’s a mess? You not accepting my buddy request

Wait you sent me one, cause I had not seen it. Well I accepted so sorry about the wait
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OSR stands with Israel
Computer89
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2022, 03:51:24 PM »

It’s ironic how Chenka is just as moralistic as the religious right is , just of course in a different manner
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OSR stands with Israel
Computer89
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2022, 06:25:30 PM »


You are obviously aware that I been very critical of the direction Republicans have gone in, particularly with regards to Trump. I am not a Trumpist, far from it, and I've generally been accused in the past of taking a "#both sides" approach to politics. I think it is inherently unfair to accuse all Democrats, or all Republicans, of possessing the exact same viewpoints on every issue, and that is done too frequently here. It is also inherently unfair to assert that one political party is morally correct on every issue.

Let us assume that we were in an alternate timeline, in which Trump had never become President and the Republican Party resembled that of the Bush Era. I have no doubt that there would still be harsh criticism of it and its adherents on this forum, and you would still have assertions that only one train of thought is sustainable or defensible. What you're saying here is that this forum should be a space for only one train of thought. I don't believe that Leip - who founded Atlas more than twenty years ago - would have intended for this to be an echo chamber.

On the contrary, I would like to see a forum with a bunch of Bush-era Republicans. Obviously there would be harsh criticisms, which is inevitable, and you would still see people like myself holding the viewpoints that Bushism isn't defensible, but we would not be as vocal and passionate about it, as Bushism isn't at war with democracy and reality as much as Trumpism is.

Many Democrats in the Bush years called Bush a fascist for the patriot act, their use of signing statements and the popularization of the "unitary executive theory" , and GITMO Bay especially those who were progressive
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2022, 07:24:46 PM »

I'll make another comment, and say that this thread certainly does demonstrate why nothing will change with regards to the current situation on this forum. Blue and red avatars have fundamentally different views of what this forum is and what it should be. It is unlikely that they will find any sort of common ground on this. Red avatars do not believe that this forum is inherently exclusive of opposing political viewpoints and believe that blue avatars are simply incapable of debating properly or defending their beliefs. Blue avatars think it is a waste of time to contribute in a space which, they feel, is hostile to them.

This sounds like a microcosm of American politics.

Democrats tell Republicans that GOP modern policies are illogical and/or immoral, and try to debate with Republicans in order to show that the GOP position doesn't hold up to logic and/or morality when scrutinized. Republicans USUALLY either refuse to debate altogether or they argue in bad faith so they can "win / stalemate" debates, even though the entire reason the Dems wanted to debate in the first place was to have a good faith discussion and show conservatives that the Dem position is more logical and/or more moral.

One MIGHT deduce from this that the Republicans don't really have superior ideas these days, otherwise they would be more willing (and maybe even eager) to debate in good faith and show the Dems why their left wing ideas make less sense than GOP ideas.

Nonsense.  Liberals and conservatives disagree on some very fundamental things.  It is not in "bad faith" to reject how your opponent frames an issue; instead, it is (when done well) the highest and most essential from of debate. 

The GOP position "doesn't hold up to logic/morality" [to you] because you've probably accepted as an a priori truth a value system that assumes secular humanism, scientism, moral relativism, etc.  Conservatives haven't.  That doesn't make either side wrong, but it doesn't suggest there are multiple perspectives on any single question.

This truth has been a casualty of social media/opinion journalism's obsession with "fact checking" everything in the Trump era.  The idea that inherently debatable (or even scientific) questions can be given a binary "true" or "false" rating feeds the divisiveness of our era. 

An underrated difference is "the scientific establishment can be counted on to provide our best guess about a question of fact" versus "the scientific establishment is totally dependent on grant money and will make up anything their donors want them to hear". The left almost always emphasizes the former view and the right the latter one.

(A cynical me of like 6-8 years ago accepted both of these things as true, though it very distinctly seems like the situation has gotten much worse and trust in the scientific establishment has broadly collapsed through society as a consequence.)

Also it is harder to trust the scientific establishment after what they did during COVID. They acted like the lab leak theory was completely inaccurate in 2020 and then later on it was uncovered a reason they said that is they did not want to be seen as going along side Trump's "Xenophobic Agenda".  So yah this was a clear example of putting politics over science

Also after the spent months shaming everyone who went outside for a walk or those who wanted to eat outdoors, they started justifying going out and taking part in the BLM Protests with one even saying on MSNBC the danger from our current police system could be more dangerous for many people than COVID. This was of course another example of them putting politics over science during COVID.

 
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2022, 11:48:10 PM »

Anyway way a post Furgeson made one time actually clearly sums up why debate is so hard now days. He outright said he finds it hard to believe someone can claim they care about the views they have unless they think people who are on the opposite side of that debate are more immoral for having those views.

That to me is 100% a wrong approach to politics

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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2022, 11:50:59 PM »

For the liberals who defend Bush and say Trump was more dangerous to democracy.. do not forget this:

Bush STOLE Florida in 2000 and got away with it.

Bush STOLE Ohio in 2004 and got away with it.

Trump won and lost the states he won and lost fair and square

There is absolutely no valid reason to say Ohio in 2004 was stolen and in fact saying so is more crazy than saying 2016 or 2020 were rigged.
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2022, 02:25:58 AM »

For the liberals who defend Bush and say Trump was more dangerous to democracy.. do not forget this:

Bush STOLE Florida in 2000 and got away with it.

Bush STOLE Ohio in 2004 and got away with it.

Trump won and lost the states he won and lost fair and square

There is absolutely no valid reason to say Ohio in 2004 was stolen and in fact saying so is more crazy than saying 2016 or 2020 were rigged.


I found it so funny when Trump said on TV on January 6th that it was a stolen election.

Gore and Kerry didn't go on TV cheering insurrections and saying it was a stolen election. Especially when the election was clearly STOLEN from Gore and probably stolen from Kerry.

Kerry literally had no case whatsoever that it was stolen . Like I can't even think of an argument that he had that he had other than literally say the machines were rigged which is just as conspiratorial as what some the biggest election deniers use for 2020.

The election was not stolen from Trump , and it was not from Kerry with(wasn't from Gore too but thats a different story).

 
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