The exodus of the blue avatars
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  The exodus of the blue avatars
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Author Topic: The exodus of the blue avatars  (Read 2788 times)
T'Chenka
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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2022, 11:17:19 PM »

For me, the reason I've been posting here has been that my life outside of Atlas has gotten a lot more busy

And this is something else that distinguishes blue avatars from red ones.  We're real people with real jobs, families and other commitments competing for our time while red avatars have always skewed younger/more engaged. 

I work 44 hours every week, sometimes more. Badger works probably 50 hours per week (ballpark figure) or more.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2022, 11:25:48 PM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

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lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2022, 12:02:12 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

no less than progressives are in
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2022, 12:52:41 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

no less than progressives are in
A lot of progressives spend time socializing and debating with mainstream Democrats / center-left people who are their love-hate allies against the right wing. Rose Twitter is the loudest progressive voice, but that doesn't mean it's where most progressives actually are.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2022, 01:06:06 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

no less than progressives are in
A lot of progressives spend time socializing and debating with mainstream Democrats / center-left people who are their love-hate allies against the right wing. Rose Twitter is the loudest progressive voice, but that doesn't mean it's where most progressives actually are.

TBF, when we're talking about groups as broad as "blue avatars", the nuanced destinations between "progressives" and "center-left Democrats" is basically irrelevant.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2022, 01:19:41 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

no less than progressives are in
A lot of progressives spend time socializing and debating with mainstream Democrats / center-left people who are their love-hate allies against the right wing. Rose Twitter is the loudest progressive voice, but that doesn't mean it's where most progressives actually are.

TBF, when we're talking about groups as broad as "blue avatars", the nuanced destinations between "progressives" and "center-left Democrats" is basically irrelevant.

Blue and Red avatar has changed massively since 2015/16 for sure. In 2015 you had a wide variety of people on here from tea party types, populists, liberal to moderate republicans, libertarian republicans , blue dog democrats, socialists, labor democrats and of course the partisans.

Now days the partisans pretty much make up each group and the amount of "RINOs" and "DINOs" that are on here have reduced massively. In 2015/16 it was not uncommon to see on USGD a group of blue and red avatars being in support of one policy together while blue and red avatars were opposed to it together. Now days that is pretty much gone as RL polarization has hit the forum
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Farmlands
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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2022, 04:14:48 AM »

For those claiming it wouldn't be like this if the GOP was more respectable, name one R outside the Northeast not unanimously opposed to by red avatars.Youngkin was feared with such a vigor, you'd think he was trying to abolish democracy and lock up any minorities in Virginia.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2022, 04:37:15 AM »

For those claiming it wouldn't be like this if the GOP was more respectable, name one R outside the Northeast not unanimously opposed to by red avatars.Youngkin was feared with such a vigor, you'd think he was trying to abolish democracy and lock up any minorities in Virginia.

Supporting politicians from the other side of the spectrum and being able to have civil agree-to-disagree policy debates between the right and left in good faith are two very different things.
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Calthrina950
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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2022, 09:01:27 AM »

For those claiming it wouldn't be like this if the GOP was more respectable, name one R outside the Northeast not unanimously opposed to by red avatars.Youngkin was feared with such a vigor, you'd think he was trying to abolish democracy and lock up any minorities in Virginia.

Even Baker, Hogan, and Sununu are viewed negatively by many, if not most, left-leaning posters here. Just about the only elected Republican politician who probably has a net positive approval rating here overall is Phil Scott, and Scott is virtually indistinguishable from a Democrat.
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Torie
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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2022, 09:33:55 AM »

For those claiming it wouldn't be like this if the GOP was more respectable, name one R outside the Northeast not unanimously opposed to by red avatars.Youngkin was feared with such a vigor, you'd think he was trying to abolish democracy and lock up any minorities in Virginia.

Even Baker, Hogan, and Sununu are viewed negatively by many, if not most, left-leaning posters here. Just about the only elected Republican politician who probably has a net positive approval rating here overall is Phil Scott, and Scott is virtually indistinguishable from a Democrat.

It probably has happened, but aside from POTUS candidates and office holders, I can't ever recall arguing with anyone whether a politician from other than an electability standpoint was good or bad.  That would not self actualize me at all, and would be a total waste of time anyway. Nor do I comment on the "fairness" of grades posters give on politicians. Well I must admit that the Pub candidate for PA governor has some issues.  Sunglasses
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Mr.Barkari Sellers
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« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2022, 09:39:04 AM »

Trump is being sued by NY AG for 250 M dollars Rs give tax cuts to the wealthy we all have money but will never have 250 M unless we hit the lottery Trump and DeSantis and Vance are worth 150 M

Not only that the Proud Boys are organizing in every state and Maga just like the KKK did that's how they killed our 4 Civil Rights leaders that wasn't pure luck that was orchestrated especially Lee Harvey Oswald he faked am ID and everything and Dr King killing we have security now but not back then Politicians won't meet like RFK in public they will meet you in private he should of went thru back door and met in the alley like Politician now that's past though

It's no accident why these races are not further apart between D's lead in Rs because of Proud Boys

Just like Lincoln assassination was orchestrated the Blks would of probably not went thru Jim Crow if Lincoln survived but we will never know

Oswald and General Lee were cuz Robert Oswald and Lee Oswald
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2022, 09:58:03 AM »

For those claiming it wouldn't be like this if the GOP was more respectable, name one R outside the Northeast not unanimously opposed to by red avatars.Youngkin was feared with such a vigor, you'd think he was trying to abolish democracy and lock up any minorities in Virginia.

I donít know exactly what youíre trying to prove by this statement. Red avatars hate GOP politicians because the party is insane. Whatís your point?
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Aurelius
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« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2022, 10:07:08 AM »

Something that I think is missed in this discussion. Low-quality white noise blue avs get bullied off the forum pretty quickly, and rightfully so. Low quality white noise red avs don't, unfortunately, and they stick around.
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Aurelius
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« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2022, 10:16:02 AM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?
Yes, or at least no more than liberals are.

Conservatives also generally have a much better understanding of why liberals think the way they do than vice versa.

Your post is one of the funniest things I've read on this site.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2022, 10:29:45 AM »

Conservatives also generally have a much better understanding of why liberals think the way they do than vice versa.

Lol no, you guys absolutely do not understand liberals.
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dead0man
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« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2022, 11:07:44 AM »

Something that I think is missed in this discussion. Low-quality white noise blue avs get bullied off the forum pretty quickly, and rightfully so. Low quality white noise red avs don't, unfortunately, and they stick around.
this might be the single biggest reason there are so few blue avs.  The sh**tty ones can't hack it or freak out and get banned.  sh**tty red avs can and do stick around for years.  Some of them are Atlas "institutions".
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2022, 11:14:49 AM »

Something that I think is missed in this discussion. Low-quality white noise blue avs get bullied off the forum pretty quickly, and rightfully so. Low quality white noise red avs don't, unfortunately, and they stick around.
this might be the single biggest reason there are so few blue avs.  The sh**tty ones can't hack it or freak out and get banned.  sh**tty red avs can and do stick around for years.  Some of them are Atlas "institutions".

     And the low quality of the median red avatar contributes greatly to creating the climate I spoke of where the forum simply isn't worth making serious contributions to anymore. Sometimes I see a thread I want to post in, but scrolling through and seeing a wall of Reddit-tier takes from Democrats disabuses me of any interest in participating.
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Calthrina950
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« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2022, 12:08:15 PM »
« Edited: September 23, 2022, 04:38:54 PM by Calthrina950 »

This thread exposes a fundamental "disconnect" between red and blue avatars, which helps to explain why this forum has become more of an "echo chamber" than it was previously. Many red avatars seem to believe that the Republican Party is an illegitimate, anti-American party, bent on introducing fascism and authoritarianism into the United States. They view Republicans as being a threat to their livelihoods, to those of their loved ones, and to those of minority groups who they see as uniquely vulnerable. Thus, it is no surprise that red avatars would not be interested in engaging with those who they believe is the enemy, and it is no surprise that they would not tolerate any arguments or positions deriving from what they consider to be a place of hatred, of anger, and of intolerance.

Blue avatars, on their part, believe that they are unwelcome here, that there is an inherent ideological bias among the moderators, and that these biases have enabled red avatars to get away with behaviors for which they would be punished. And yes, it is true that many Republicans also believe that the Democratic Party is illegitimate and that it is extremist, out of touch with their values and their perception of what this country should be. That adds "fuel to the fire", if I can use that phrase, and it makes blue avatars reluctant to back down from their positions and more likely to defend those positions as they view them necessary. Political polarization, therefore, has sorted people into clearly defined, diametrically opposed ideological camps, and these camps reduce the incentive for bipartisanship and for magnanimity towards others.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2022, 12:35:42 PM »

This thread exposes a fundamental "disconnect" between red and blue avatars, which helps to explain why this forum has become more of an "echo chamber" than it was previously. Many red avatars seem to believe that the Republican Party is an illegitimate, anti-American party, bent on introducing fascism and authoritarianism into the United States. They view Republicans as being a threat to their livelihoods, to those of their loved ones, and to those of minority groups who they see as uniquely vulnerable. Thus, it is no surprise that red avatars would be interested in engaging with those who they believe is the enemy, and it is no surprise that they would not tolerate any arguments or positions deriving from what they consider to be a place of hatred, of anger, and of intolerance.

Blue avatars, on their part, believe that they are unwelcome here, that there is an inherent ideological bias among the moderators, and that these bias has enabled red avatars to get away with behaviors for which they would be punished. And yes, it is true that many Republicans also believe that the Democratic Party is illegitimate and that it is extremist, out of touch with their values and their perception of what this country should be. That adds "fuel to the fire", if I can use that phrase, and it makes blue avatars reluctant to back down from their positions or to defend those positions as they view them necessary. Political polarization, therefore, has sorted people into clearly defined, diametrically opposed ideological camps, and these camps reduce the incentive for bipartisanship and for magnanimity towards others.

I think this post is inaccurate and I can tell you as a blue avatar when many red avatars call people that I know terrorist enabler or traitors , that I have zero interest in being nice to those posters and I more or less will respond in an extremely hostile way to those posters and there should be no surprise of that. This is why we have become so hostile to the mods as well because rather than putting a stop to all this rhetoric they have effectively enabled it cause many deep down also believe it and I can tell you that has greatly alienated blue avatars and conservatives from here especially given they do stamp down equivalent rhetoric from the right on here.

I btw also have proposed solutions that would greatly reduce the heat on here and all of them have been rejected . One of them was to create a sticky mega thread regarding LGBT issues(particularly Trans Issues) or really any culture war issue at this point if you want to reduce the heat here.
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Calthrina950
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« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2022, 12:50:55 PM »

This thread exposes a fundamental "disconnect" between red and blue avatars, which helps to explain why this forum has become more of an "echo chamber" than it was previously. Many red avatars seem to believe that the Republican Party is an illegitimate, anti-American party, bent on introducing fascism and authoritarianism into the United States. They view Republicans as being a threat to their livelihoods, to those of their loved ones, and to those of minority groups who they see as uniquely vulnerable. Thus, it is no surprise that red avatars would be interested in engaging with those who they believe is the enemy, and it is no surprise that they would not tolerate any arguments or positions deriving from what they consider to be a place of hatred, of anger, and of intolerance.

Blue avatars, on their part, believe that they are unwelcome here, that there is an inherent ideological bias among the moderators, and that these bias has enabled red avatars to get away with behaviors for which they would be punished. And yes, it is true that many Republicans also believe that the Democratic Party is illegitimate and that it is extremist, out of touch with their values and their perception of what this country should be. That adds "fuel to the fire", if I can use that phrase, and it makes blue avatars reluctant to back down from their positions or to defend those positions as they view them necessary. Political polarization, therefore, has sorted people into clearly defined, diametrically opposed ideological camps, and these camps reduce the incentive for bipartisanship and for magnanimity towards others.

I think this post is inaccurate and I can tell you as a blue avatar when many red avatars call people that I know terrorist enabler or traitors , that I have zero interest in being nice to those posters and I more or less will respond in an extremely hostile way to those posters and there should be no surprise of that. This is why we have become so hostile to the mods as well because rather than putting a stop to all this rhetoric they have effectively enabled it cause many deep down also believe it and I can tell you that has greatly alienated blue avatars and conservatives from here especially given they do stamp down equivalent rhetoric from the right on here.

I btw also have proposed solutions that would greatly reduce the heat on here and all of them have been rejected . One of them was to create a sticky mega thread regarding LGBT issues(particularly Trans Issues) or really any culture war issue at this point if you want to reduce the heat here.

I am certainly aware of the attacks that red avatars have made against their blue counterparts. I've been subject to some of these attacks myself, as you very well know. There has to be a more consistent enforcement of this site's Terms of Service, and they need to be applied more equitably to posters of all ideological persuasions and perspectives. I also do think that creating threads for specific culture war issues probably would help to alleviate tension here.
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« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2022, 01:56:52 PM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman 

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lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

Liberals/progressives dominate mass media/pop culture/advertising, education, HR departments, and a whole lot of other fields where conservatives cannot easily avoid being directly exposed to their beliefs even if they don't seek it out or have more liberal friends and family.
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2022, 02:34:02 PM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe.

 Pacman  

 Tears of joy


lol do you deny that conservatives are generally in echo chambers?

Liberals/progressives dominate mass media/pop culture/advertising, education, HR departments, and a whole lot of other fields where conservatives cannot easily avoid being directly exposed to their beliefs even if they don't seek it out or have more liberal friends and family.

What is this sudden hard-on for "HR departments" in Atlas?
Who on Earth, thinks about how "liberal/progressive" their HR dept is, and how it massively affects their way of living?
Just bizarre. I mean, if this is some kind of major issue in your life, it's YOU that has (mental) issues.
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« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2022, 02:46:40 PM »

If you don't know that people dislike and resent their HR departments, it may be that they don't feel comfortable telling you about that.
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Vosem
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« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2022, 03:30:50 PM »

I think much of this has less to do with the culture of Atlas and more to do with the nature of conservatism itself. At best, conservatism seeks to preserve the status quo, so they haven't really though about how they might defend their beliefs. They've never had to. They're not advocating for any kind of change, so they don't have any institutions or leaders to challenge. Conservatives generally hail from echo chambers and have rarely, if ever, had their belief system challenged. They haven't been exposed to liberal/progressive line of thought. If they have, it's been a strawman or extremist outlier manufactured by Fox News or some other conservative outlet. So when they finally do encounter a left-leaning person who competently defends their beliefs, it feels like a personal attack. It's the same reason why many conservatives feel that their opinions are not welcome in a university setting. It's the first time where someone has actually made them defend why they believe what they believe. And since they've rarely critically thought about this, they become defensive. They view counterarguments as a personal attack. "I'm being attacked for my ideas." Now, there are many conservatives who DO know how to defend their beliefs and can competently engage in an exchange of ideas. The problem is that because the Republican Party has become the party of anti-intellectualism, the conservatives who do know how to debate don't really identify as Republicans and don't don the blue avatar.

'Conservatism' in the American sense is a misnomer; most conservatives in the literal sense of wanting the institutions to stay as they are are Democrats. 'Movement conservatism' in the US has always been about a fairly radical program of reform, at least since the mid-1990s.

Otherwise, I would say that upstream of the effect that's being discussed here is a growing polarization, both in a cultural sense (there have been many studies of the Great Awokening, 2013-present, which show a huge shift in cultural attitudes which is concentrated among those politically on the left; at the same time there are things like attitudes towards guns, or for that matter where fertility rate, where it is Democrats who are a 'normal' population and Republicans who are a bizarre outlier relative to the First World) and also in an economic sense; lots of polling indicates that people who identify as 'fiscally conservative' or 'fiscally progressive' are much further away from each other than they would have been 20 years ago, to the point that a conversation is very difficult to have because quite basic ideas are contested. It verges on impossible to reconcile any part of the Democratic platform -- or, yes, most parties in the modern First World -- with 'spending cuts causally lead to economic growth'.

Also -- while the Republican Party does not recognize inequality as a social problem -- it should be noted that Republicans and Democrats increasingly live in different places, much more-so than 20 years ago, and this is a large part of what informs the difference in their politics: Democrats are much likelier to live in places with severe economic inequality, relative to Republicans who are less likely to see it in their own communities.

Most young and educated people nowadays are left-wing, in a way that wasn't necessarily true 20 years ago (though it would have already been a majority); new conservatives are much more typically recruited from formerly apolitical people in middle-age, who are less likely to become active in a forum where the culture is mostly that of young people. You therefore see a similar trend in many 'young online intellectual' communities which might've been split in the 2000s and are very left-wing now -- an example that immediately comes to mind is Wikipedia editors.
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« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2022, 04:37:47 PM »

this might be the single biggest reason there are so few blue avs.  The sh**tty ones can't hack it or freak out and get banned.  sh**tty red avs can and do stick around for years.  Some of them are Atlas "institutions".
And the low quality of the median red avatar contributes greatly to creating the climate I spoke of where the forum simply isn't worth making serious contributions to anymore. Sometimes I see a thread I want to post in, but scrolling through and seeing a wall of Reddit-tier takes from Democrats disabuses me of any interest in participating.

"We are more than happy to participate, but you're all too stupid that it's not even worth it!"

Wow, great argument there. It sounds like you're very secure in your belief system.

I am in the minority on a number of issues on Atlas (particularly trans rights), but I always defend my beliefs no matter how many people disagree with me.

Look, Atlas is unlike most social media giants in that there's no algorithm stacking the deck against you. We're a relatively small community, we're completely anonymous, and moderation here is generally lax enough that you don't have to worry about getting your posts removed unless you engage in a personal attack. There's nothing holding you back from defending your beliefs and engaging with red avatars, unless you're afraid that they're going to get more recommends than you.

If blue avatars/conservatives aren't able to defend their arguments on Atlas of all places, then that's not on red avatars. That's on blue avatars.
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