Opinion of Karl Marx (user search)
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  Opinion of Karl Marx (search mode)
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Author Topic: Opinion of Karl Marx  (Read 3174 times)
Diabolical Materialism
SlamDunk
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« on: September 21, 2022, 07:56:10 PM »

The fact that this is even close is scary. Marx was terrible. Anybody so arrogant he claims his theory is the ONLY possible way human history will progress is WAY too high on his own supply.
Dog that is every philosopher ever
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Diabolical Materialism
SlamDunk
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2022, 01:59:05 PM »

My friend, what is the name of the Manifesto?
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Diabolical Materialism
SlamDunk
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2022, 03:04:16 PM »


It was never put into practice and Marx barely had any followers.

Labour parties also followed the manifesto early on. So social democracy is also built around the ideas of Marx. People here or especially in the US think Marx legacy is just marxism-leninism which is a myth. Every social democrat party their legacy is basically built on Marx but adapted to a modern world.

Lots of things and concepts we see as natural, are implemented, quite a lot even supported by modern conservatives. Unless conservative parties are suddenly in favour of (forced) child labour or against females having voting rights.

If i put a "lakigigarian manifesto" and someone 40 yrs later put it into practice, would it be still "lakigigarian". Probably not. It would be their "ideology" since they would put it into practice, and it would never be implemented the way i intended.

We don't know how Marx would've approved marxism-leninism, stalinism or communism because he was never alive to observe the effects of such a revolution. I'd especially be curious to bring him back, educate him on USSR and so on, and see what he would think about the "experiment" with all hindsight we have today.

He probably would still believe in something left wing today just like I would today, but I bet he would see the USSR as failed.

The only revolution he saw was the Paris commune. I'd support such a revolution back than and I'd still support it with hindsight, and the French state committed a lot of crimes destroying the Paris commune, killing tens of thousands of communards, including liberals, jacobins and republicans in the process.
I'm not sure I understand the point you're arguing so I do apologize if I'm way off the mark here.

But what I'm gathering from what you're saying is that Marx cannot be a communist be he never saw communism actually be implemented in his lifetime. Is that close to what you're saying?
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Diabolical Materialism
SlamDunk
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2022, 08:49:32 PM »

I mean Marx used the term "communism" in his writings and back in 1848 he did to some extent self-identify as a communist, but it was more of a general "vibe" than a coherent political project. Communism as an organized, international political movement only structured itself in the 1920s as a product of WW1 and the Russian Revolution. So while it isn't exactly incorrect to call Marx a communists, it is genuinely historically misleading.

Marx's most direct political heirs are indeed the social-democratic and labor parties that emerged across continental Europe (UK Labour is a slightly different beast). These parties were directly inspired by Marxist theories and their organizational structure and political strategy was directly modeled on Marxist understandings of society. Of course these parties eventually deviated from Marxist ideology in important ways (although this happened later and less dramatically than is often assumed), but here's the thing: so did Lenin and the Bolsheviks who would come to structure 20th century communism. The Bolsheviks' theories and actions from around 1905 onward directly contradicted almost every orthodox Marxist principle, and as for the USSR itself, Marx would have very little good to say about it.

So I guess saying "Marx was a communist" and "Marx was a social democrat" are both true from a certain point of view, but both are also deeply misleading and are best avoided.
If this is what Laki is getting at then I don't have any major disagreements. The italicized is something I really wish a lot of Leninists would come to understand.
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