Opinion of Karl Marx
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Author Topic: Opinion of Karl Marx  (Read 3060 times)
Dr. MB
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2022, 01:56:05 AM »

FF but along with Bryan Jennings and Woodrow Wilson they werebt Secular they had Secular views but Jennings and Wilson we're DIXIECRATS they were racist back then, but there liberal way of thinking of raising taxes on the rich and give to poor and Federal Rights over states rights we take from that
Well, Marx did apparently consider moving to Texas at one point...



Reminds me of how Communists see Marx on LGBT issues vs how he actually was:


Literally no source for the Marx quote besides a sh!tty meme try harder bro
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2022, 02:02:58 AM »

FF but along with Bryan Jennings and Woodrow Wilson they werebt Secular they had Secular views but Jennings and Wilson we're DIXIECRATS they were racist back then, but there liberal way of thinking of raising taxes on the rich and give to poor and Federal Rights over states rights we take from that
Well, Marx did apparently consider moving to Texas at one point...



Reminds me of how Communists see Marx on LGBT issues vs how he actually was:


Literally no source for the Marx quote besides a sh!tty meme try harder bro

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14534042_Johann_Baptist_von_Schweitzer_The_Queer_Marx_Loved_to_Hate
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Dr. MB
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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2022, 02:07:51 AM »

FF but along with Bryan Jennings and Woodrow Wilson they werebt Secular they had Secular views but Jennings and Wilson we're DIXIECRATS they were racist back then, but there liberal way of thinking of raising taxes on the rich and give to poor and Federal Rights over states rights we take from that
Well, Marx did apparently consider moving to Texas at one point...



Reminds me of how Communists see Marx on LGBT issues vs how he actually was:


Literally no source for the Marx quote besides a sh!tty meme try harder bro

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14534042_Johann_Baptist_von_Schweitzer_The_Queer_Marx_Loved_to_Hate
Regardless I don’t really care. Quote was about a dude Marx never particularly liked in the first place. But I’m not exactly expecting anyone before about 1970-1980 to hold an openly (or even privately) accepting view on homosexuality and a little comment doesn’t negate his entire life’s work which for all its faults was a very acute and long-lasting observation of material conditions.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2022, 04:51:06 AM »

What was Abraham Lincoln's view on gay marriage, I wonder?
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Pacific Republican
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2022, 04:55:24 AM »

What was Abraham Lincoln's view on gay marriage, I wonder?

Probably against, 19th century Republicans were a bunch of moralists.
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« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2022, 05:04:48 AM »

What was Abraham Lincoln's view on gay marriage, I wonder?

The last six Army of Northern Virginia generals were fags.
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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2022, 06:41:24 AM »

What was Abraham Lincoln's view on gay marriage, I wonder?

Probably against, 19th century Republicans were a bunch of moralists.

"Probably".
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Cassius
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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2022, 08:17:35 AM »

Overall HP.

I don't think he was generally evil or so, indeed identified problems with excessive capitalism, but his proposed "cures" were questionable all too often.

The big flaw with Marx was that he was good at identifying problems and extremely short on developing detailed 'cures' to those problems. His later acolytes stepped into the breach with... um... mixed results, but those by and large can't be laid at the feet of Marx the man.

He identified a good system (capitalism) and decided that it was a problem.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Marx didn’t consider capitalism to be a problem in and of itself. He was actually surprisingly complementary of it in certain writings - he considered it a necessary stage in the upward progress of humanity that would soon be replaced by socialism (a further advance), a stance that marks him out from some other socialist thinkers of the time (Fourier) who regarded capitalism and its accoutrements (trade, investment) as bad in and of themselves.
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RC (a la Frémont)
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2022, 11:57:09 AM »

Had some decent theories, but still the basis for many of the world's ills for the better part of a century. HP.
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Pacific Republican
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2022, 12:49:31 PM »

Overall HP.

I don't think he was generally evil or so, indeed identified problems with excessive capitalism, but his proposed "cures" were questionable all too often.

The big flaw with Marx was that he was good at identifying problems and extremely short on developing detailed 'cures' to those problems. His later acolytes stepped into the breach with... um... mixed results, but those by and large can't be laid at the feet of Marx the man.

He identified a good system (capitalism) and decided that it was a problem.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Marx didn’t consider capitalism to be a problem in and of itself. He was actually surprisingly complementary of it in certain writings - he considered it a necessary stage in the upward progress of humanity that would soon be replaced by socialism (a further advance), a stance that marks him out from some other socialist thinkers of the time (Fourier) who regarded capitalism and its accoutrements (trade, investment) as bad in and of themselves.

You're right.  That's why he supported Abraham Lincoln's war of aggression against the South.
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« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2022, 12:49:36 PM »

Is it bad that I keep confusing Vaush and Roosh?
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« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2022, 12:59:00 PM »

Is it bad that I keep confusing Vaush and Roosh?

No, they're both pseudointellectuals who are not worth your time.
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If my soul was made of stone
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« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2022, 01:29:28 PM »

Overall HP.

I don't think he was generally evil or so, indeed identified problems with excessive capitalism, but his proposed "cures" were questionable all too often.

The big flaw with Marx was that he was good at identifying problems and extremely short on developing detailed 'cures' to those problems. His later acolytes stepped into the breach with... um... mixed results, but those by and large can't be laid at the feet of Marx the man.

He identified a good system (capitalism) and decided that it was a problem.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Marx didn’t consider capitalism to be a problem in and of itself. He was actually surprisingly complementary of it in certain writings - he considered it a necessary stage in the upward progress of humanity that would soon be replaced by socialism (a further advance), a stance that marks him out from some other socialist thinkers of the time (Fourier) who regarded capitalism and its accoutrements (trade, investment) as bad in and of themselves.

You're right.  That's why he supported Abraham Lincoln's war of aggression against the South.

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buritobr
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« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2022, 02:29:43 PM »

Overall HP.

I don't think he was generally evil or so, indeed identified problems with excessive capitalism, but his proposed "cures" were questionable all too often.

Your favorite party in Germany was heavily influenced by Marx in the early 20th century.
I consider Hilferding one of the most important economists in the world in the first half of the 20th century.
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« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2022, 02:42:22 PM »

Overall HP.

I don't think he was generally evil or so, indeed identified problems with excessive capitalism, but his proposed "cures" were questionable all too often.

Your favorite party in Germany was heavily influenced by Marx in the early 20th century.
I consider Hilferding one of the most important economists in the world in the first half of the 20th century.

This is a guy who thinks Schröder was a good Chancellor, so I doubt this'll mean anything for him.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2022, 02:02:18 AM »

Overall HP.

I don't think he was generally evil or so, indeed identified problems with excessive capitalism, but his proposed "cures" were questionable all too often.

The big flaw with Marx was that he was good at identifying problems and extremely short on developing detailed 'cures' to those problems. His later acolytes stepped into the breach with... um... mixed results, but those by and large can't be laid at the feet of Marx the man.

He identified a good system (capitalism) and decided that it was a problem.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Marx didn’t consider capitalism to be a problem in and of itself. He was actually surprisingly complementary of it in certain writings - he considered it a necessary stage in the upward progress of humanity that would soon be replaced by socialism (a further advance), a stance that marks him out from some other socialist thinkers of the time (Fourier) who regarded capitalism and its accoutrements (trade, investment) as bad in and of themselves.

You're right.  That's why he supported Abraham Lincoln's war of aggression against the South.

The funny thing is that many of my issues with Marxism apply to dogmatic libertarianism. Especially when the utopian world view fails to provide an answer to a complicated event, rather than question the dogmatism, the approach is to undermine the necessity of the event even it requires going to extreme lengths to do so.

Sometimes war is unavoidable and in those cases you have to be able to fight it.

Marx supported the triumph of capitalism over the extractive slave economy of the Confederacy, because he thought it advanced on the road to his socialist utopia. His utopia was flawed, but it doesn't make the triumph of capitalism in this instance flawed.

The political culture of South was degenerate and diseased (the consequence of it needed to justify the continued existence and expansion of slavery as opposed to hand waving it away as a necessary evil like someone like Thomas Jefferson did many decades earlier); its economy was trapped in a backwards and atrophied state; its proportion of the population of the country in severe decline; and in spite of employing most of its people in agriculture it was still being out produced by the North even in that sector, thanks to its better technology, transportation and economic system.

The South was equivalent of East Germany or North Korea, a backwards and oppressive slave economy built on a slavish singular devotion to a misguided political force. How very ironic that Communism produced the exact same result that was supposed to be a relic of the past.

I will never understand or agree with the affinity that many Libertarians have for the Confederacy, as it undermines the message and communicates a seeming hypocrisy at the heart of the present Libertarian political movement (to the extent such exists). Ron Paul's embrace of neoconfederacy was largely that of political expedience, since Libertarianism is a rather small political niche and absorbing this was of mutual benefit. Paul got supporters and neoconfederates got to claim they really about freedom.

The problem is nothing about the South was libertarian. Its belief in state's rights was selective and only for convenience. Its slave system violated every tenet of a free market and was dependent on high levels of government support to be maintained. The necessities of maintaining the slave system dictated restrictions on the freedom of speech, religion, press and assembly. Slave societies, the history of the world over, are a story one of oppressive regime after another.

Yet people engage in this weird compartmentalization of "The south's oppression" as being something along the lines of "that was just the blacks, for everyone else it was a free society". Obviously, I don't need to say for whom this leap of logic most appealed to, but even on its own it is demonstrably false. Slave societies restrict the civil liberties and economic freedom of everyone who lives in them, because slave societies necessarily live on the constant knifes edge of threat of revolt, and thus the only way to maintain "domestic security" is to repress any thought, activity, or action that might intentionally or unintentionally trigger a servile insurrection.

No slave society can exist without the support and intervention of the government, which by definition means that the labor is being subsidized by the government. This crowds out wage labor, crowds out personal development and improvement, makes investment in competing models impossible and discourages education and encourages a drain of free labor to places where their skills will be rewarded. In any other situation, if you were to provide an example of "subsidized business model" that had these kinds of effect, Libertarians would rightly condemn it as the government created distortion that it is.

Libertarians need to recognize their is no such thing as an ideologically consistent and coherent libertarianism, that embraces, defends or supports the Confederacy.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2022, 02:23:38 AM »

Marx's misguided snake oil has done the most damage to the world in the 20th century and killed more people in the time since his death than any other singular theorist. The reason being is that his philosophy was misguided to its core and thus why virtually in most every single instance where someone tried to implement it, the end result was rivers of blood and millions of corpses. At a certain point, you have to ask why so many different people from so many cultures, all trying implement the same philosophy ended up in the exact same place (a brutal, mass murdering tyrant enslaving their own people into wretched squalor).

"But we haven't had real x yet" - the refrain of most every dogmatic and utopian ideology that the world has ever seen.

I find utopianism itself to be dangerous, people trying to social engineer the world into their desired state, will always necessarily need to accrue onto a few way too much power to ever be safe. This power will then corrupt those in power, trapping the society and precluding advancement to the stateless utopia. It is a fiction, at worst a delusional exercise.

The dogmatism comes into play, when it asserts that human greed, excess and corruption all stems from a certain external factor that said ideological seeks to eradicate, for the Marxist it is the class divisions. The problem is that excess, greed and corruption are natural to humanity and no amount of social engineering will change the fact that when stripped of restraints and limitations, humans will naturally fall pray to their worst impulses. Any ideology that thus removes these restraints in the name of some misguided utopia, is dangerous in my view.

Furthermore, much of Marx's attacks on the Bourgeoise reeks of drawing on ancient European anti-Semitic tropes. Basically what we would now called code or dog whistles. Communists and Marxists often will refute this by claiming that Marx comes from a Jewish family and was Jewish himself. Just because Hitler and the Nazis would have considered him Jewish under their racial pseudoscience doesn't absolve Marx of anti-Semitism. Lastly, many will attest that since he is equal opportunity anti-religion that he is thus not an Anti-Semite, but to me this would be the equivalent of justifying a racist diatribe by someone on the basis that "well they hate all races".

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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2022, 07:43:39 AM »

As previously stated Christ perfected religion Hades is Devil and God is Odin of Thor Mythology and Karl Marx perfected Protestant Reformation Secularism, the difference was that Pope was religious and Crown we're Republicans or the status quo but the Crown are still the Whig party not the Conservative they still are pro Environment like the Whigs and Anti slavery, Victoria got rid of slavery and so did George III but it's still Aristocracy like the DIXIECRAT party whom was Pro slavery

So, Karl Marx perfected Secularism in Govt just like Lutherism perfected Religion and even before Lutherism there was the Magna Carta that reformed the Crown, redistribution of inherited wealth like the Crown and the R party is today, and much of it was due to slavery Kennedy clan got their money from castles in Ireland not in America
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« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2022, 12:39:50 PM »
« Edited: September 20, 2022, 12:44:36 PM by Laki »

everyone hated gays in the 20th century.

Marx even never lived in the 20th one.

Do i need to start about all those pre-lincoln presidents who were in favour of slavery, had slaves themselves or were ambivalent on the issue?

During Marx his time, nobody was pro-lgbtq. It wasn't even an issue. Issues were woman having voting rights, universal voting rights, child labour, shortening the labour day from 14 hours to perhaps 8, and most of these were also done after marx died.

Marx died in 1883. he never saw a commie state, only the short lived commune of Paris which was a FF state.

Even today, most people live in countries where lgbtq rights aren't guaranteed and where lgbtq marriage is outlawed. Even countries like Italy are still backwards on this. Germany only has it since last year. in the us it is threatened again because of the supreme court. Even Israël hasn't have lgbtq marriage.
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2022, 06:40:35 PM »

slim HP. Was a good reader of the problems of his time, but was not able to provide good solutions to them.
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2022, 09:46:33 PM »

The fact that this is even close is scary. Marx was terrible. Anybody so arrogant he claims his theory is the ONLY possible way human history will progress is WAY too high on his own supply.
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« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2022, 06:40:03 AM »

No slave society can exist without the support and intervention of the government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking
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« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2022, 02:59:14 PM »

The fact that this is even close is scary. Marx was terrible. Anybody so arrogant he claims his theory is the ONLY possible way human history will progress is WAY too high on his own supply.

Every social democrat in Europe approves of Karl Marx. Even social democrats celebrated 200 years old birthday of Marx.

There is nothing left wing about you.

You cannot be a social democrat and disapprove of Marx because in that case you would not be a social democrat. You would also disapprove the entire history of social democracy.


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« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2022, 03:05:20 PM »

Every social democrat in Europe approves of Karl Marx. Even social democrats celebrated 200 years old birthday of Marx.

There is nothing left wing about you.

You cannot be a social democrat and disapprove of Marx because in that case you would not be a social democrat. You would also disapprove the entire history of social democracy.
What? Social democracy =/= Communism.

Karl Marx is an HP.
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2022, 03:06:30 PM »

Every social democrat in Europe approves of Karl Marx. Even social democrats celebrated 200 years old birthday of Marx.

There is nothing left wing about you.

You cannot be a social democrat and disapprove of Marx because in that case you would not be a social democrat. You would also disapprove the entire history of social democracy.
What? Social democracy =/= Communism.

Karl Marx is an HP.

Marx was not a communist

He never even saw the dawn of communism.
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