Why do Republicans seem to think they are owed support from Libertarians?

[John Dule]

I get that actual, ideological libertarians are uncommon in comparison to garden-variety rednecks with "Don't Tread" bumper stickers. We are not exactly a large political bloc and we do not affect elections. But lately whenever someone with a yellow avatar on this site attacks Republicans, there have been a few predictable blue avs whining about how we have "basically become leftists" or that we are somehow trying to impress Democrats. This is dumb and stupid.

My question: Why exactly do we owe you our allegiance? Here are just a few clarifications I'd like to make for Republicans on behalf of the libertarians I know and respect:



1. For many of us, our earliest political memories are of the GOP leading this country into international embarrassment and economic ruination. The unhinged paranoia of the War on Terror is the number one reason why I became instinctively suspicious of the US government, but also of the Republican Party and its obvious authoritarianism. I have never lived a year in which a Republican president attempted to actually make this country freer. I have never lived under a Republican president who I did not want to see imprisoned for multiple crimes. And while so many conservatives were driven insane by the failure of the Bush Era, eventually turning to Trump in pure desperation, libertarians did not experience this. For us, 2001-2009 was just a very prolonged "I told you so."

2. We have disagreed with you on virtually every major culture war issue since the turn of the century-- flag burning, antiwar protests, gay rights, drug legalization, circumcision, immigration, and abortion. Even when we are sympathetic to issues surrounding free speech, we do not believe that anyone is owed a platform on Twitter or other social media pages. The one social issue we consistently agree on is gun rights, which (although significant) is not sufficient to cancel out our other differences.

3. We disagree with you on drug criminalization. Not only is it bad from a policy perspective, but criminalizing the production of these substances on a federal level is unconstitutional. We support prison reform and releasing nonviolent offenders. We do not share your fetishization of the punitive element of law enforcement. We do not trust the police. We largely consider the Karenesque suburban authoritarian policies you love to be nothing more than a weapon to use against the poor.

4. We do not hold to your definition of "freedom," which all too often means "The right to subject everyone around me to my beliefs." Most libertarians I know are not concerned that their children are learning about climate change or secular belief systems in public schools. Many of us are either atheists or agnostics, and are unconcerned about the decline of religion in the public square. Even when we agree on the issues, I cannot help but be disturbed by the fact that you often arrive at your views because you believe you are being surveilled by an unknowable cosmic Patriot Act.

5. You do not discuss or make concerted efforts on the issues we actually agree on. You have abandoned conservative economic principles in favor of stimmy check handouts, evictions moratoriums, corporate welfare to dying Rust Belt industries, and pointless boondoggles like border walls. On the rare occasion when a Republican actually makes an effort to tackle "big government," it is typically in the form of blind directionless flailing at the "Deep State," which accomplishes nothing of substance while budget deficits widen and spending grows. I have given up on waiting for a Republican to utter the words "occupational licensing" in a speech again. Instead I am more likely to hear "the libtards turned my gingerbread man into a gingerbread them."



While I continue to disagree with most of what the Democrats do, I disagree with even more of the Republican platform, which each passing year becomes more indistinguishable from a schizophrenic screed written by a personality cult. I have never voted for a Republican on the federal level and I will not do so until the party essentially does the opposite of everything it has said for the past ~40 years. I am happy to split my ticket downballot and for state races, but even so, I am voting for California Republicans-- not exactly the type of people who could win the mental gymnastics competitions that nationwide GOP primaries have become.

Anyway, you're free to vote how you want. I only wanted to clarify that we're just not that into you, and we never have been.

[John Dule]

1. We live in an era right now where it's obvious Dem are a much bigger threat to liberty than the GOP. COVID lockdowns proved this. It's not comparable. You can see the difference in freedom by comparing California to Florida.

The last Republican president and current party leader openly asked an authoritarian regime to hack the opposing party, attempted to strongarm local elections officials into fabricating votes in his favor, withheld congressionally mandated aid from a foreign nation in order to get them to dig up dirt on his opponent, and orchestrated a violent riot that culminated in the country's highest elected officials fleeing for their lives through tunnels while their building was occupied by fascist homunculi in shaman costumes.

But the Democrats made you wear a piece of fabric on your face I'm sorry you had to go through that. poor baby

[John Dule]

1. We live in an era right now where it's obvious Dem are a much bigger threat to liberty than the GOP. COVID lockdowns proved this. It's not comparable. You can see the difference in freedom by comparing California to Florida.

The last Republican president and current party leader openly asked an authoritarian regime to hack the opposing party, attempted to strongarm local elections officials into fabricating votes in his favor, withheld congressionally mandated aid from a foreign nation in order to get them to dig up dirt on his opponent, and orchestrated a violent riot that culminated in the country's highest elected officials fleeing for their lives through tunnels while their building was occupied by fascist homunculi in shaman costumes.

But the Democrats made you wear a piece of fabric on your face I'm sorry you had to go through that. poor baby

I mean being made to wear a rag on his face was a greater imposition upon his liberty than any of the above violations of the great electoral game.

There is no metric by which that is true.

[John Dule]

Didn't you literally have in your sig for a while saying you oppose democracy.

Yes, but I removed it because it was being misinterpreted. I oppose democratic decision-making when it comes to the basic rights and freedoms of individuals. My rights to life, liberty, and property should not be subject to the whims of majority rule. The best way to defend these rights is to enshrine them in an unalterable constitution, so that even if 99% of the public wants to infringe upon my freedom, they are nonetheless unable to (legally) do so.

[John Dule]

1. We live in an era right now where it's obvious Dem are a much bigger threat to liberty than the GOP. COVID lockdowns proved this. It's not comparable. You can see the difference in freedom by comparing California to Florida.

The last Republican president and current party leader openly asked an authoritarian regime to hack the opposing party, attempted to strongarm local elections officials into fabricating votes in his favor, withheld congressionally mandated aid from a foreign nation in order to get them to dig up dirt on his opponent, and orchestrated a violent riot that culminated in the country's highest elected officials fleeing for their lives through tunnels while their building was occupied by fascist homunculi in shaman costumes.

But the Democrats made you wear a piece of fabric on your face I'm sorry you had to go through that. poor baby

None of that is worse than Biden trying to push us to piss Russia off more and the COVID regime was more than just mask-wearing. And Jan 6th was nothing compared to the left encouraging the burning of cities in 2020. Let's not forget Dems spied on trump, weaponized the IRS against the right, and used big tech to censor half the nation. At the end of the day, it's obvious what states people are flocking too and it's certainly not the ones that were more supportive of Biden in 2020.

What a ridiculous post.

1. How exactly did Biden "try to piss off Russia?" By not giving them the thumbs-up and saying everything was hunky dory when they began their brutal ethnic cleansing campaign? Biden's response to the Ukraine invasion has been one of the best parts of his presidency. His approach was clear from the beginning, he clearly had all the right intelligence on the invasion, and he has led an appropriate NATO response without embroiling us in the conflict. It is hard to imagine a better approach, and it is impossible to imagine Trump doing the same thing.

2. The Democrats spied on Trump because he was and continues to be a national security threat. I wish they'd done a better job of surveilling him, because then they might've realized he was in possession of illegal nuclear documents sooner and we could've avoided one of the biggest security leaks in our nation's history. Morons need looking after.

3. When has any Democratic politician "used big tech" to censor anyone? You are talking about private companies, and they are free to deplatform anyone they choose. The only people who care about this are extremely online alt-righters who think that private companies should be required to provide them with a service, which is essentially socialism.

4. I agree there is no comparison between a disorganized mob attacking a Racine, WI tire store and a sitting president ordering rioters to attack the seat of American democracy. The latter is clearly worse than the former and only an utter ignoramus would think otherwise.

[John Dule]

Didn't you literally have in your sig for a while saying you oppose democracy.

Yes, but I removed it because it was being misinterpreted. I oppose democratic decision-making when it comes to the basic rights and freedoms of individuals. My rights to life, liberty, and property should not be subject to the whims of majority rule. The best way to defend these rights is to enshrine them in an unalterable constitution, so that even if 99% of the public wants to infringe upon my freedom, they are nonetheless unable to (legally) do so.

 If 99% of people want to infringe upon your freedom there is nothing a Constitution is going to do to stop them.

[John Dule]

You speak as if the law is something that exists upon people instead of among them.

If we're talking about literally *99% of people wanting you dead or something, it's happening.  The "law" only has effect because it's broadly consistent with consensus (or at least majoritarian) standards and beliefs.  Whether or not something is "legal" is immaterial - no judge or police officer has the balls (or even the ability) to enforce something over the objections of 99% of everyone else.   

The mob can always take my freedoms with force if it comes to that. I just don't want them having any illusions about being able to do this "within the system."

1, Sending aid + supporting Ukraine joining Nato = provoking conflict. Better approach? No aid and no NATO bid.

Not going to read any further than this. Isolationism is even stupider than neocon interventionism, and anyone who thinks Russia should be allowed to pave through Ukraine without any hinderance from US foreign policy is a lover of oppression and totalitarianism. Biden has struck an excellent middle ground in his approach.

No this is wrong given they are given section 230 protections so yes companies who censor no longer should get them

This makes no sense.

[John Dule]

1. I oppose Libertarian foreign policy but a core of libertarianism is isolationism or at most paleo-conservatism so if you oppose that I don't see how you can really call your self Libertarian Dule. I also think isolationism is stupid but thats why I am not a libertarian

What's the point of making a thread about Libertarians when you aren't even with Libertarians on their biggest issue?

"I would advocate that which the Soviet Union fears above all else: economic boycott, I would advocate a blockade of Cuba and an economic boycott of Soviet Russia; and you would see both of those regimes collapse without the loss of a single American life." -Ayn Rand, the mother of libertarianism

Biden is using a more moderate version of this approach in his handling of modern Russia, and it is working. This might come as a shock to you guys, but libertarians generally don't love dictators and repressive authoritarian regimes!

[John Dule]

1. I oppose Libertarian foreign policy but a core of libertarianism is isolationism or at most paleo-conservatism so if you oppose that I don't see how you can really call your self Libertarian Dule. I also think isolationism is stupid but thats why I am not a libertarian

What's the point of making a thread about Libertarians when you aren't even with Libertarians on their biggest issue?

"I would advocate that which the Soviet Union fears above all else: economic boycott, I would advocate a blockade of Cuba and an economic boycott of Soviet Russia; and you would see both of those regimes collapse without the loss of a single American life." -Ayn Rand, the mother of libertarianism

Biden is using a more moderate version of this approach in his handling of modern Russia, and it is working. This might come as a shock to you guys, but libertarians generally don't love dictators and repressive authoritarian regimes!

Ayn Rand isn't a libertarian.

cool story bro

[John Dule]

This thread confirms the death of the libertarian wing on atlas. Only 3 exist

Who are they?

jaichind, dead0man, and idk the 3rd

dead0man recommended Dule’s thread though.

To my knowledge, dead0man isn't invoking ayn rand to support biden's policy towards ukraine/russia

Do you have some kind of attention deficit disorder? You implied that libertarianism necessarily entailed a completely isolationist foreign policy, so I pointed out that the intellectual progenitors of libertarianism (including but not limited to Rand and Goldwater) endorsed much more hawkish approaches to foreign policy than I do. This completely disproves your point and if you had any self-awareness you would’ve dropped the subject by now.

[John Dule]

This thread confirms the death of the libertarian wing on atlas. Only 3 exist

Who are they?

jaichind, dead0man, and idk the 3rd

dead0man recommended Dule’s thread though.

To my knowledge, dead0man isn't invoking ayn rand to support biden's policy towards ukraine/russia

Do you have some kind of attention deficit disorder? You implied that libertarianism necessarily entailed a completely isolationist foreign policy, so I pointed out that the intellectual progenitors of libertarianism (including but not limited to Rand and Goldwater) endorsed much more hawkish approaches to foreign policy than I do. This completely disproves your point and if you had any self-awareness you would’ve dropped the subject by now.

Barry Goldwater was a conservative not a libertarian. He was a libertarian leaning conservative but still a conservative first

Ok 👍

[John Dule]

This thread confirms the death of the libertarian wing on atlas. Only 3 exist

Who are they?

jaichind, dead0man, and idk the 3rd

dead0man recommended Dule’s thread though.

To my knowledge, dead0man isn't invoking ayn rand to support biden's policy towards ukraine/russia

Do you have some kind of attention deficit disorder? You implied that libertarianism necessarily entailed a completely isolationist foreign policy, so I pointed out that the intellectual progenitors of libertarianism (including but not limited to Rand and Goldwater) endorsed much more hawkish approaches to foreign policy than I do. This completely disproves your point and if you had any self-awareness you would’ve dropped the subject by now.

Barry Goldwater was a conservative not a libertarian. He was a libertarian leaning conservative but still a conservative first

I'll be honest, I'm not really sure I understand why Barry Goldwater is "still a conservative first" while Ron Paul is "The most iconic libertarian politician".

Oh, that’s simple. It is a semantic distinction without a difference that exists in his head.

[John Dule]

Foreign policy beliefs is a huge part in determining whether someone is libertarian or not

Not really. This is one of those areas where lovers of freedom can reasonably disagree. Modern libertarians are notoriously anti-interventionist only because the GOP's previous patron saint lied to the entire country in order to embroil us in an unjust oil war. Nonetheless, I generally oppose getting us involved in foreign conflict unless we are directly attacked, but that doesn't mean we can't sanction our enemies and provide aid to our allies. The idea that Biden's aid to Ukraine should be a make-or-break issue for libertarians is too silly to be worthy of further discussion.

I enjoy it when American weaponry sheds the blood of the foot soldiers of oppression and authoritarianism. I like it even more when American blood isn't shed in the process.

[John Dule]

Lmao anyone invoking Ayn Rand or Barry Goldwater to discuss libertarianism in 2022 isn't a libertarian. If Jaichind made it, this might have gone better.

I’m trying to think of someone less qualified than you to be the arbiter of libertarianism, and I’m coming up dry. You are weirdly limiting your definition to modern Darryl Perryesque tea partiers while discussing a diverse ideology with intellectual roots that reach through several centuries. Libertarian thought did not spring into existence in 2009.

[John Dule]

Foreign policy beliefs is a huge part in determining whether someone is libertarian or not

Not really. This is one of those areas where lovers of freedom can reasonably disagree. Modern libertarians are notoriously anti-interventionist only because the GOP's previous patron saint lied to the entire country in order to embroil us in an unjust oil war. Nonetheless, I generally oppose getting us involved in foreign conflict unless we are directly attacked, but that doesn't mean we can't sanction our enemies and provide aid to our allies. The idea that Biden's aid to Ukraine should be a make-or-break issue for libertarians is too silly to be worthy of further discussion.

I enjoy it when American weaponry sheds the blood of the foot soldiers of oppression and authoritarianism. I like it even more when American blood isn't shed in the process.

Barry Goldwater was in favor of the Vietnam War and also opposed reestablishing relations with China. Would either of these positions be compatible with a libertarian foreign policy

Unlike DeadPrez I’m not gonna gatekeep libertarianism. Goldwater, in my view, belongs to a particular subgroup of libertarians who oppose oppression so vehemently that they are willing to unleash total war to liberate the enslaved masses of the world. The modern LP obviously does not hold to this  (nor do I), but there is no denying that it stems from a libertarian, freedom-oriented philosophy.