Why do Republicans seem to think they are owed support from Libertarians?
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  Why do Republicans seem to think they are owed support from Libertarians?
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Author Topic: Why do Republicans seem to think they are owed support from Libertarians?  (Read 3775 times)
John Dule
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« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2022, 05:19:15 AM »

Foreign policy beliefs is a huge part in determining whether someone is libertarian or not

Not really. This is one of those areas where lovers of freedom can reasonably disagree. Modern libertarians are notoriously anti-interventionist only because the GOP's previous patron saint lied to the entire country in order to embroil us in an unjust oil war. Nonetheless, I generally oppose getting us involved in foreign conflict unless we are directly attacked, but that doesn't mean we can't sanction our enemies and provide aid to our allies. The idea that Biden's aid to Ukraine should be a make-or-break issue for libertarians is too silly to be worthy of further discussion.

I enjoy it when American weaponry sheds the blood of the foot soldiers of oppression and authoritarianism. I like it even more when American blood isn't shed in the process.
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Saint Milei
DeadPrez
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« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2022, 09:35:16 PM »

This thread confirms the death of the libertarian wing on atlas. Only 3 exist
Who are they?

jaichind, dead0man, and idk the 3rd
dead0man recommended Dule’s thread though.

To my knowledge, dead0man isn't invoking ayn rand to support biden's policy towards ukraine/russia

Do you have some kind of attention deficit disorder? You implied that libertarianism necessarily entailed a completely isolationist foreign policy, so I pointed out that the intellectual progenitors of libertarianism (including but not limited to Rand and Goldwater) endorsed much more hawkish approaches to foreign policy than I do. This completely disproves your point and if you had any self-awareness you would’ve dropped the subject by now.

Ayn Rand isn't a libertarian. Goldwater's son even said Goldwater was a foreign policy dove and when Goldwater ran for president, he wasn't a libertarian. Using statements from people that aren't libertarian to make a libertarian case for being a warhawk is idiotic and you should know this. It's obvious you don't have much exposure to the libertarian movement or are best a regime libertarian which is pretty much the cringe dorks on twitter masquerading as competent republicans with some affection for democrats
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Saint Milei
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« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2022, 09:37:52 PM »

Lmao anyone invoking Ayn Rand or Barry Goldwater to discuss libertarianism in 2022 isn't a libertarian. If Jaichind made it, this might have gone better.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2022, 11:50:22 PM »

Libertarians share one fatal flaw with Liberalism (not surprising considering its roots) and one fatal flaw with Marxism (not surprising considering how many young libertarians have gone that direction eventually).

Whenever you combine a doctrinaire dogmatic view of one's own ideology with an idealistic view of the world and human nature, you inevitably run across situations where you have to choose between the reality as it exists on the ground or the ideology. 

I think a lot of people have "select libertarian leanings", but very few would satisfy the strict scrutiny that Deadprez is referencing. A lot of people who supported the Ron Paul movement for instance, were not libertarians but foreign policy nationalists denied a "traditional home" on the right thanks to the overbearing dominance of the neocon movement in the Bush years.

This is why even as you have seen the decline of anything that can be specifically labeled a "libertarian movement" but tremendous gains have been made on the select fronts in both parties in a libertarian direction. It thus should not come as a surprise that what was a "movement" in a certain direction would then fragment based on one's priorities in a given situation, between the left and the right obviously.

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John Dule
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« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2022, 12:27:39 AM »

Lmao anyone invoking Ayn Rand or Barry Goldwater to discuss libertarianism in 2022 isn't a libertarian. If Jaichind made it, this might have gone better.

I知 trying to think of someone less qualified than you to be the arbiter of libertarianism, and I知 coming up dry. You are weirdly limiting your definition to modern Darryl Perryesque tea partiers while discussing a diverse ideology with intellectual roots that reach through several centuries. Libertarian thought did not spring into existence in 2009.
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Saint Milei
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« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2022, 02:51:49 AM »

Lmao anyone invoking Ayn Rand or Barry Goldwater to discuss libertarianism in 2022 isn't a libertarian. If Jaichind made it, this might have gone better.

I知 trying to think of someone less qualified than you to be the arbiter of libertarianism, and I知 coming up dry. You are weirdly limiting your definition to modern Darryl Perryesque tea partiers while discussing a diverse ideology with intellectual roots that reach through several centuries. Libertarian thought did not spring into existence in 2009.

Water is wet. Please tell the class more about Ayn Rand
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politicallefty
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« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2022, 08:09:56 AM »



3. When has any Democratic politician "used big tech" to censor anyone? You are talking about private companies, and they are free to deplatform anyone they choose. The only people who care about this are extremely online alt-righters who think that private companies should be required to provide them with a service, which is essentially socialism.


No this is wrong given they are given section 230 protections so yes companies who censor no longer should get them

So private companies must host certain speech or be subject to lawsuits? That is antithetical to the freedom of speech. The right does seem to enjoy making many exceptions to the free speech protections afforded by the First Amendment (except equating money with speech).

Section 230 protections literally gives them special protection from the law on the guise they really shouldn't be responsible for what others post on there. Well if you are censoring posts then I have no idea how you can continue to make that argument.

No, Section 230 provides for protections beyond what the judiciary currently provides. The right-wing, led by Donald Trump, wants to eviscerate the freedom of speech by allowing other speech to be subject to libel laws. A private organization is not restricted by the Bill of Rights, unlike the government. If the government created a forum for the general population, you would have a point with regards to censorship. You are asking the government to require a private company to host your speech. I do not understand how one reads the First Amendment in such a way.
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Aurelius
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« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2022, 02:29:04 PM »


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« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2022, 04:17:24 PM »

Foreign policy beliefs is a huge part in determining whether someone is libertarian or not

Not really. This is one of those areas where lovers of freedom can reasonably disagree. Modern libertarians are notoriously anti-interventionist only because the GOP's previous patron saint lied to the entire country in order to embroil us in an unjust oil war. Nonetheless, I generally oppose getting us involved in foreign conflict unless we are directly attacked, but that doesn't mean we can't sanction our enemies and provide aid to our allies. The idea that Biden's aid to Ukraine should be a make-or-break issue for libertarians is too silly to be worthy of further discussion.

I enjoy it when American weaponry sheds the blood of the foot soldiers of oppression and authoritarianism. I like it even more when American blood isn't shed in the process.

Barry Goldwater was in favor of the Vietnam War and also opposed reestablishing relations with China. Would either of these positions be compatible with a libertarian foreign policy
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Nathan
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« Reply #84 on: August 27, 2022, 05:48:05 PM »

Lmao anyone invoking Ayn Rand or Barry Goldwater to discuss libertarianism in 2022 isn't a libertarian. If Jaichind made it, this might have gone better.

Jaichind is one of the most authoritarian posters on the forum. I think he just likes the color yellow.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #85 on: August 27, 2022, 09:02:44 PM »

"Is Ayn Rand A Libertarian" - the greatest thread in the history of Atlas, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,
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John Dule
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« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2022, 10:26:46 PM »

Foreign policy beliefs is a huge part in determining whether someone is libertarian or not

Not really. This is one of those areas where lovers of freedom can reasonably disagree. Modern libertarians are notoriously anti-interventionist only because the GOP's previous patron saint lied to the entire country in order to embroil us in an unjust oil war. Nonetheless, I generally oppose getting us involved in foreign conflict unless we are directly attacked, but that doesn't mean we can't sanction our enemies and provide aid to our allies. The idea that Biden's aid to Ukraine should be a make-or-break issue for libertarians is too silly to be worthy of further discussion.

I enjoy it when American weaponry sheds the blood of the foot soldiers of oppression and authoritarianism. I like it even more when American blood isn't shed in the process.

Barry Goldwater was in favor of the Vietnam War and also opposed reestablishing relations with China. Would either of these positions be compatible with a libertarian foreign policy

Unlike DeadPrez I知 not gonna gatekeep libertarianism. Goldwater, in my view, belongs to a particular subgroup of libertarians who oppose oppression so vehemently that they are willing to unleash total war to liberate the enslaved masses of the world. The modern LP obviously does not hold to this  (nor do I), but there is no denying that it stems from a libertarian, freedom-oriented philosophy.
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theflyingmongoose
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« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2022, 02:07:32 AM »

This thread confirms the death of the libertarian wing on atlas. Only 3 exist
Who are they?

jaichind, dead0man, and idk the 3rd
dead0man recommended Dule痴 thread though.

To my knowledge, dead0man isn't invoking ayn rand to support biden's policy towards ukraine/russia

Do you have some kind of attention deficit disorder? You implied that libertarianism necessarily entailed a completely isolationist foreign policy, so I pointed out that the intellectual progenitors of libertarianism (including but not limited to Rand and Goldwater) endorsed much more hawkish approaches to foreign policy than I do. This completely disproves your point and if you had any self-awareness you would致e dropped the subject by now.

Ayn Rand isn't a libertarian. Goldwater's son even said Goldwater was a foreign policy dove and when Goldwater ran for president, he wasn't a libertarian. Using statements from people that aren't libertarian to make a libertarian case for being a warhawk is idiotic and you should know this. It's obvious you don't have much exposure to the libertarian movement or are best a regime libertarian which is pretty much the cringe dorks on twitter masquerading as competent republicans with some affection for democrats

Yes, the guy who advocated for nuking Vietnam was a dove?
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