New York Times has posted the dumbest opinion piece ever
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Author Topic: New York Times has posted the dumbest opinion piece ever  (Read 2568 times)
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BRTD
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« on: August 09, 2022, 04:35:59 PM »

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Nathan
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2022, 02:39:25 AM »

If this Dasha person went to my church I'd sit as far away from her as I could get. That's all I have to say on this.
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afleitch
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2022, 03:17:41 AM »

'writes Julia Yost.'

We can all stop there.
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If my soul was made of stone
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2022, 10:18:02 AM »

New York's hottest club is--[crosses himself]--the Catholic Church.

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John Dule
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2022, 10:59:06 AM »

Stop trying to make Zoomer Christianity happen. It's never gonna happen.
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afleitch
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2022, 12:08:53 PM »
« Edited: August 10, 2022, 12:12:21 PM by afleitch »

To be fair, there is ample opportunity for discussion about tradcath bougie white converts that extends beyond the deus-volt cliche of a few years ago. But you can find a thousand or so people in any subset in a place like NYC. As one person online joked, there's probably twice as many furries in NYT as this clique. And I suppose the profile market for bougie whites running off to join the Islamic State has long dried up.

It wouldn't be the NYT without these sorts of pieces, which they have been pumping out for decades, hoping they strike gold on something before it become well known or mainstreamed.

But when a forgotten journo from a forgotten journal has to take to the NYT to say how popular the thing they are invested in is, then you're swimming in the shallow end of an already shallow pool.

Also the only people who ever cared about 'Red Scare' to begin with are the same people who probably greenlight these sorts of pieces (Vanity Fair had one too)
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Donerail
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2022, 03:50:24 PM »

"and whether the new faithful are performing an act of theater or not" is a striking sentence—surely if they are performing theater they, by definition, cannot be 'the new faithful.' The article seems to have missed the point of, well, Christianity.
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Nathan
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2022, 04:01:26 PM »

Also the only people who ever cared about 'Red Scare' to begin with are the same people who probably greenlight these sorts of pieces (Vanity Fair had one too)

Probably the biggest culture shock I've had about Catholicism is not any of the weird preoccupations that cradle Catholics have, but the fact that other youngish converts so often expect me to know and care about this seemingly endless rogues' gallery of freakish nobodies.
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afleitch
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2022, 06:10:30 PM »

Also the only people who ever cared about 'Red Scare' to begin with are the same people who probably greenlight these sorts of pieces (Vanity Fair had one too)

Probably the biggest culture shock I've had about Catholicism is not any of the weird preoccupations that cradle Catholics have, but the fact that other youngish converts so often expect me to know and care about this seemingly endless rogues' gallery of freakish nobodies.

'This is not your grandmother's church'. As any fool knows most peoples' grandmothers are the only decent Catholics in their family.

They could do with learning some old school cradle Catholic guilt and we might not get these drunk on aesthetism trash pieces... 😶

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Santander
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2022, 06:19:49 PM »

The only good church is a demolished church.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2022, 11:34:59 AM »

"and whether the new faithful are performing an act of theater or not" is a striking sentence—surely if they are performing theater they, by definition, cannot be 'the new faithful.' The article seems to have missed the point of, well, Christianity.

     It's the New York Times, so I would be shocked if they did get the point on anything pertaining to religion. I have some good friends who are very pious Catholic converts, and I don't imagine they appreciate their faith being treated as a hip youth scene.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2022, 01:29:37 PM »

Hipster intellectuals converting to Catholicism has been a thing ever since, like, Chateaubriand.
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Chunk Yogurt for President!
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2022, 06:25:52 PM »

A lot of these converts want the Latin Mass, which Pope Francis is trying to do away with.
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Nathan
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2022, 07:17:53 PM »

A lot of these converts want the Latin Mass, which Pope Francis is trying to do away with.

There's a great deal to recommend the Latin Mass aesthetically, but the way its advocates respond to criticism or restrictions just keeps reinforcing Francis and his people's perception of them as a church-within-a-church that keeps its own counsel and can't stand being told no. The vast majority of regular Latin Mass attendees that I've known have at the very least developed a schismatic posture towards other aspects of today's papacy sooner or later, even if they didn't have it to begin with. It's a shame, because a lot of the aesthetic criticisms of the way the current Latin Rite tends to be celebrated in this country do have merit, especially if you're not old enough to think of the sixties folk revival as cutting-edge music and polyester poncho chic as cutting-edge men's fashion.
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afleitch
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2022, 02:22:15 AM »

A glorification of the 'old European way' of saying mass doesn't come alone particularly amongst the sorts of people talked about in the OP. The Church's restrictions are quite grounded.
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afleitch
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2022, 11:19:17 AM »

This gives me an idea for an R&P thread about the dangers of aesthetic discourse in philosophy and politics (hi D'Annunzio) if I have the time.
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LabourJersey
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2022, 02:09:25 PM »

Also the only people who ever cared about 'Red Scare' to begin with are the same people who probably greenlight these sorts of pieces (Vanity Fair had one too)

Probably the biggest culture shock I've had about Catholicism is not any of the weird preoccupations that cradle Catholics have, but the fact that other youngish converts so often expect me to know and care about this seemingly endless rogues' gallery of freakish nobodies.

The divide in viewpoints/interests/passion between American adults converts to Catholicism and American cradle Catholic adults is really fascinating to me.
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Nathan
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2022, 04:15:24 PM »

A glorification of the 'old European way' of saying mass doesn't come alone particularly amongst the sorts of people talked about in the OP. The Church's restrictions are quite grounded.

Yes, particularly regarding indigenous issues. You run into black, Asian, and "white Hispanic" trads semi-frequently, but the 2019 Amazon Synod revealed a really intense and ugly undercurrent of anti-Native sentiment in the tradosphere that's only gotten worse with each subsequent stab at indigenous reconciliation from the Vatican. At this point I wouldn't be shocked if Charles Chaput is the only remaining trad-sympathetic Native Catholic in America.
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jojoju1998
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2022, 10:23:42 PM »

A glorification of the 'old European way' of saying mass doesn't come alone particularly amongst the sorts of people talked about in the OP. The Church's restrictions are quite grounded.

Yes, particularly regarding indigenous issues. You run into black, Asian, and "white Hispanic" trads semi-frequently, but the 2019 Amazon Synod revealed a really intense and ugly undercurrent of anti-Native sentiment in the tradosphere that's only gotten worse with each subsequent stab at indigenous reconciliation from the Vatican. At this point I wouldn't be shocked if Charles Chaput is the only remaining trad-sympathetic Native Catholic in America.

Chaput is not a Trad per se. He's a John Paul II Neo Conservative.

So we have three wings in the Catholic Church, and they're each represenated by the 3 popes in the last 50 years.

Pope John Paul II : New Evangelization Wing. Accepts the Vatican 2 changes. But focuses more on the " true spirit of Vatican 2 ", aka strong evangelism, and the core of the faith. Conservative on the social issues, but frankly unconcerned with the Mass and the connotations associated with it.

Chaput is part of this wing. And to be honest; there wasn't that many of these Bishops in the US to begin with. The New Evangelization Wing was mostly concentrated in Denver ( Where Chaput was based for a long time ). And in the Global South like Asia/Africa. Bishop Robert Barron is another one. But that's it.

Pope Francis : The " Progressive " Spirit of Vatican 2 Wing. Sees Vatican 2 as a good thing, and sees the church as always moving forward. Karl Rahner. Hans Kung. Cardinals Hollerich, Cupich, Tobin, sees more flexibility on the social issues, strong on the social justice issues, These guys are more common in Latin America, Europe, and among Jesuits and jesuit educated clergy.

They dominate European Catholicism now, because of the after effects of Vatican 2.

Pope Benedict : The Trads. It should be noted, that Benedict himself never aligned himself with the traditionalists. He in fact was John Paul II's chief collaborator for almost 30 years. But when he loosened restrictions on the Latin Mass in 2007, Trad Catholics saw him as their ally. And over the next 14 years, they began to get louder and louder.

The divide in Western Catholicism is between the Benedict Wing and the Francis Wing. Because these guys are still hashing out the after effects of secularism and how to deal with different cultures.


Unforturnately, the John Paul II Group has been totally sidelined in the last decade in the West.
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afleitch
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2022, 06:02:34 AM »

A glorification of the 'old European way' of saying mass doesn't come alone particularly amongst the sorts of people talked about in the OP. The Church's restrictions are quite grounded.

Yes, particularly regarding indigenous issues. You run into black, Asian, and "white Hispanic" trads semi-frequently, but the 2019 Amazon Synod revealed a really intense and ugly undercurrent of anti-Native sentiment in the tradosphere that's only gotten worse with each subsequent stab at indigenous reconciliation from the Vatican. At this point I wouldn't be shocked if Charles Chaput is the only remaining trad-sympathetic Native Catholic in America.

I think what's striking is how people forget that Vatican 2 was in many ways Catholicism's contrition for it's own imperialism, and certainly for it's indirect relationship with inter-war nationalism. There's a lot of focus on the Church and rightfully so, but less on the 'responsibility' of the laity and political Catholics which Vatican 2 was a response to.

The 'issues' views of TLM attendees are shocking. Not just in comparison to other Catholics, but comparable faiths

https://liturgyguy.com/2019/02/24/national-survey-results-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attendees/

The demographics are to be expected; disproportionally white, from traditionalist Catholic backgrounds and heavily backfilled by converts.

https://liturgyguy.com/2020/05/26/2019-20-tlm-survey-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attending-young-adults/

I know I'm quite hyperbolic and I'm not being kind or gracious but to me it's a fash pit. That the otherwise glacial Church has moved so fast to counter it suggests they at least partially think the same.
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Nathan
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2022, 02:25:03 PM »

A glorification of the 'old European way' of saying mass doesn't come alone particularly amongst the sorts of people talked about in the OP. The Church's restrictions are quite grounded.

Yes, particularly regarding indigenous issues. You run into black, Asian, and "white Hispanic" trads semi-frequently, but the 2019 Amazon Synod revealed a really intense and ugly undercurrent of anti-Native sentiment in the tradosphere that's only gotten worse with each subsequent stab at indigenous reconciliation from the Vatican. At this point I wouldn't be shocked if Charles Chaput is the only remaining trad-sympathetic Native Catholic in America.

I think what's striking is how people forget that Vatican 2 was in many ways Catholicism's contrition for it's own imperialism, and certainly for it's indirect relationship with inter-war nationalism. There's a lot of focus on the Church and rightfully so, but less on the 'responsibility' of the laity and political Catholics which Vatican 2 was a response to.

The 'issues' views of TLM attendees are shocking. Not just in comparison to other Catholics, but comparable faiths

https://liturgyguy.com/2019/02/24/national-survey-results-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attendees/

The demographics are to be expected; disproportionally white, from traditionalist Catholic backgrounds and heavily backfilled by converts.

https://liturgyguy.com/2020/05/26/2019-20-tlm-survey-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attending-young-adults/

I know I'm quite hyperbolic and I'm not being kind or gracious but to me it's a fash pit. That the otherwise glacial Church has moved so fast to counter it suggests they at least partially think the same.

"Men are an important barometer of any Liturgical Rite’s attractiveness" is an absolutely shocking sentence, yet somehow also completely unsurprising in this context. At best it's the sort of thing one says out of desperation to attract as many potential future priests as possible; at worst it's straightforwardly and crassly sexist. The "Liturgy Guy" is a real argumentative jerk in the comments on these posts, too.
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afleitch
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2022, 04:58:57 PM »

A glorification of the 'old European way' of saying mass doesn't come alone particularly amongst the sorts of people talked about in the OP. The Church's restrictions are quite grounded.

Yes, particularly regarding indigenous issues. You run into black, Asian, and "white Hispanic" trads semi-frequently, but the 2019 Amazon Synod revealed a really intense and ugly undercurrent of anti-Native sentiment in the tradosphere that's only gotten worse with each subsequent stab at indigenous reconciliation from the Vatican. At this point I wouldn't be shocked if Charles Chaput is the only remaining trad-sympathetic Native Catholic in America.

I think what's striking is how people forget that Vatican 2 was in many ways Catholicism's contrition for it's own imperialism, and certainly for it's indirect relationship with inter-war nationalism. There's a lot of focus on the Church and rightfully so, but less on the 'responsibility' of the laity and political Catholics which Vatican 2 was a response to.

The 'issues' views of TLM attendees are shocking. Not just in comparison to other Catholics, but comparable faiths

https://liturgyguy.com/2019/02/24/national-survey-results-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attendees/

The demographics are to be expected; disproportionally white, from traditionalist Catholic backgrounds and heavily backfilled by converts.

https://liturgyguy.com/2020/05/26/2019-20-tlm-survey-what-we-learned-about-latin-mass-attending-young-adults/

I know I'm quite hyperbolic and I'm not being kind or gracious but to me it's a fash pit. That the otherwise glacial Church has moved so fast to counter it suggests they at least partially think the same.

"Men are an important barometer of any Liturgical Rite’s attractiveness" is an absolutely shocking sentence, yet somehow also completely unsurprising in this context. At best it's the sort of thing one says out of desperation to attract as many potential future priests as possible; at worst it's straightforwardly and crassly sexist. The "Liturgy Guy" is a real argumentative jerk in the comments on these posts, too.

Yeah; it was the only reporting blog I could find that shared survey results. I didn't want to waste good whisky on reading anymore.
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