Which Russia was better? (user search)
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October 04, 2022, 08:48:32 PM
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  Which Russia was better? (search mode)
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Poll
Question: Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, or Russian Federation?
#1
Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
 
#2
Russian Federation
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 48

Author Topic: Which Russia was better?  (Read 1174 times)
TheReckoning
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« on: August 06, 2022, 03:10:39 AM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2022, 06:31:44 PM »
« Edited: August 10, 2022, 06:39:31 PM by TheReckoning »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2022, 12:28:32 AM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2022, 06:07:02 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

The Soviet Union was against the coup in Afghanistan, against the faction that became more powerful in the PDPA (hope I remember the acronym correctly), and, generally, against most Third World revolutions. The oddities of Marxism-Leninism demanded one or more developmental stages in developing countries before the transition to a proletarian party-state could be effected, and as such the Soviets were often loathe to support the ambitions of small elite minorities (usually located in the military) who imagined they could create a socialist society overnight. The official Soviet policy instead was usually to primarily support "bourgeois nationalists", which would oversee the transition to some form of industrial capitalism (broad definition) first. This is of course ironic given the Soviet Union's own origins, but I digress.

Nevertheless, when a partner country was (a) riddled with palace chaos, and (b) facing open rebellion in the countryside, they intervened. Sound familiar? Criticizing the USSR specifically for wanting to promote its Way of Life is laughable from the perspective of an American (which I am left to assume you are, given that Vatican City residence is unlikely), especially considering the great caution and reluctance with which they did so.

Now as to the content of that Way of Life? If it looked anything like most Warsaw Pact countries or the USSR itself, I agree, it's not a good worth exporting. But any skilled rhetorician could say the same thing about liberalism--especially with how it arrived in the Third World.

I don’t get your argument. I never that the USA wasn’t imperialist, it was arguably just as imperialist as the Soviet Union. It’s just that the Soviet Union was undeniably more imperialist than Nazi Germany. Anyone who brings up “socialism in one country” is committing a massive red herring- that policy only existed for roughly a decade before the very man who instated it began to invade other countries to annex them. Clearly, “socialism is one country” wasn’t taken very seriously as official state policy for the duration of the Soviet Union.

And the Soviet Union’s ideology was significantly worse than the United State’s. So yeah, their imperialism of spreading it was worse than our imperialism of spreading ours. 

Nazi Germany wanted to spread their revolution to half of Europe. The Soviet Union wanted their revolution to every single corner of the globe, and would’ve done it without hesitation had they been stupid enough to not realize it would’ve led to their death (notice how they stopped invading countries in naked forms of aggression with the advent of the nuclear bomb).
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2022, 10:09:20 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.

All of the Continent except Spain, Switzerland, and whatever parts Italy was clinging to is NOT " only half of Europe".

Also, this ignores the African campaign.

1. The British Isles, Finland, Iceland, Iberia, Italy, the vast majority of France, the Balkans, Romania, Hungary and a significant portion of European Russia is, indeed, half of Europe.

2. The Africa campaign was fought mostly to weaken the UK and use materials from the region to support the war effort, as well as support Italy’s expansion gains. Annexation/puppetization was never a goal.

TheReckoning being historically illiterate and minimizing Nazi evil? What a surprise. I wonder when mods will act? I have nothing else to say, it was precisely a year ago I had the delightful task of explaining to him that Lincoln would never have supported a genocide of the south. He is impossible.

Lol, the Nazis made it very clear where they wanted to expand their influence and where they didn’t (look up “Lebensraum.”) It’s not like this is a place where there is a lot of debate. The idea that the Nazis wanted to take over the entire world is fantasy.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2022, 01:29:17 AM »

We are really off topic. To what extent Nazi Germany wanted power on an international level compared to the Soviet Union has literally nothing to do with the question in the OP.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2022, 11:16:25 PM »


I am not going to pretend I didn’t learn anything from your post- you are clearly a student of history and know more specifics than I do- but I stand by that the Soviet Union was more imperialist than Nazi Germany.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2022, 11:22:52 PM »
« Edited: August 15, 2022, 11:27:21 PM by TheReckoning »

If the bolded were true, the makers of Soviet foreign policy would have been actively supporting and cheering on the coups in Ethiopia, Afghanistan, and just about every other country where socialist takeovers were successful. Instead, they were either opposed to them, or completely blindsided by them. For analysts in the government and the party, the inevitable "socialist revolution" that their style of Marxism foretold and demanded was a social science fact (which could be engaged with in a variety of ways), rather than conspiratorial master plan.

That’s the thing though- it’s not that the Soviet Union wanted communism all over the world. They wanted their specific brand of communism all over the world, which made them more than a government who reasonably wanted similar-minded governments- they wanted carbon copy governments and puppet states. That’s what made them so imperialist.

It’s not just that they invaded Afghanistan to help a fellow communist country out. It’s that they invaded Afghanistan and then killed the communist leader of Afghanistan right away that is an example of their imperialism.
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