Which Russia was better?
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October 04, 2022, 09:15:00 PM
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  Which Russia was better?
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Question: Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, or Russian Federation?
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Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
 
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Russian Federation
 
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Total Voters: 48

Author Topic: Which Russia was better?  (Read 1177 times)
Orange is back
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« on: August 05, 2022, 09:02:26 PM »

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2022, 11:33:01 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.
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Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2022, 11:42:34 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2022, 03:10:39 AM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.
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dead0man
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2022, 06:32:46 AM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.
maybe there were countries with more evil per capita, but the USSR was a special case in just how much evil it produced and exported around the world
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TiltsAreUnderrated
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2022, 08:11:45 AM »
« Edited: August 06, 2022, 08:18:18 AM by TiltsAreUnderrated »

Russia doesn't LARP as the Soviet Union for nothing. As a Republic within it, they contributed to a state which had impacts both great and terrible, as opposed to having a government that leans into the terrible but sometimes slips into the pathetic.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2022, 12:30:42 PM »

I'm not even sure what the argument would be for contemporary Russia being worse? That attacking one small country is worse than dominating half of Europe? That Putin periodically having a political dissident thrown off the top of a parking garage is worse than millions of political dissidents in slave labor camps? The USSR was basically just all the bad things about Putin's Russia on steroids.
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Post-Soviet-Posting
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2022, 01:37:44 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

"Oh wow, just like another messianic superpower I know of!"
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2022, 01:50:03 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

Stalin basically is a huge reason why the Communists won the Chinese Civil War though
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2022, 01:50:40 PM »

The USSR was obviously worse both for the people who lived in it and for the rest of the world given they were way more powerful
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Sinemafan
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2022, 07:50:32 PM »

The Soviet Union was the most humane state in history.
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Cassandra
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2022, 02:26:35 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

Stalin basically is a huge reason why the Communists won the Chinese Civil War though

What do you think a Chiang Kai-Shek -run China would have looked like? Imagine the people who carried out Taiwan's White Terror had the run of the whole of China.
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2022, 01:24:33 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.
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Sinemafan
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2022, 04:57:20 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

No matter where you turn, TheReckoning chimes in minimizing from the evils of Nazi Germany. Literally only ever minimizes the evils of one state in history. Hmm... I wonder what his ideology is.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2022, 06:31:44 PM »
« Edited: August 10, 2022, 06:39:31 PM by TheReckoning »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2022, 09:30:18 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.
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swamp fox
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2022, 10:07:29 PM »

The USSR was the most rational actor of the two. 

So them. 
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2022, 12:28:32 AM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.
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Cassandra
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2022, 07:54:33 AM »
« Edited: August 12, 2022, 11:55:49 AM by Cassandra »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.

No they didn't. The communism-everywhere faction lost power when Trotsky lost out to Stalin. Just look at how reluctant the Soviets were to support communist movements in the third world. Communists don't like hearing this, but the Soviet Union under Stalin and thereafter was primarily a Russian national project, concerned with its own survival rather than "world domination." That latter concern was the US's goal (which they certainly succeeded at, look at how few countries have insulated themselves from global markets). Ascribing world domination to the soviets is simple projection.

Jacking off the Nazis, like you're doing, is something far worse. Do you really think the Nazi war machine would have stopped for anything other than a breather upon reaching some arbitrary border? No, what stopped the Third Reich was the combined might of the Soviet and American war machines.
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Laki
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2022, 07:59:52 AM »
« Edited: August 12, 2022, 08:04:10 AM by Laki »

The USSR was obviously worse both for the people who lived in it and for the rest of the world given they were way more powerful

Life conditions for Russians vastly improved compared to the Russian Imperial State. Given how the elderly still have communist sympathies in Russia, i tend to see this as "untrue". But your perception is of course influenced by the Cold War messaging and that USSR was the prime enemy for decades for the USA, but what is states is simply untrue. That being said, sure it was in a lot of ways and especially at certain times an evil state.

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.

If The USSR wanted world domination through military means, the cold war would've been known as a warm war (not named as such), but there would be no cold war.

The USSR tried just like the US to dominate the world through diplomatic & economic means (& proxy-wars), but that's no different from the US.
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Post-Soviet-Posting
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2022, 09:05:12 AM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

The Soviet Union was against the coup in Afghanistan, against the faction that became more powerful in the PDPA (hope I remember the acronym correctly), and, generally, against most Third World revolutions. The oddities of Marxism-Leninism demanded one or more developmental stages in developing countries before the transition to a proletarian party-state could be effected, and as such the Soviets were often loathe to support the ambitions of small elite minorities (usually located in the military) who imagined they could create a socialist society overnight. The official Soviet policy instead was usually to primarily support "bourgeois nationalists", which would oversee the transition to some form of industrial capitalism (broad definition) first. This is of course ironic given the Soviet Union's own origins, but I digress.

Nevertheless, when a partner country was (a) riddled with palace chaos, and (b) facing open rebellion in the countryside, they intervened. Sound familiar? Criticizing the USSR specifically for wanting to promote its Way of Life is laughable from the perspective of an American (which I am left to assume you are, given that Vatican City residence is unlikely), especially considering the great caution and reluctance with which they did so.

Now as to the content of that Way of Life? If it looked anything like most Warsaw Pact countries or the USSR itself, I agree, it's not a good worth exporting. But any skilled rhetorician could say the same thing about liberalism--especially with how it arrived in the Third World.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2022, 06:07:02 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

The Soviet Union was against the coup in Afghanistan, against the faction that became more powerful in the PDPA (hope I remember the acronym correctly), and, generally, against most Third World revolutions. The oddities of Marxism-Leninism demanded one or more developmental stages in developing countries before the transition to a proletarian party-state could be effected, and as such the Soviets were often loathe to support the ambitions of small elite minorities (usually located in the military) who imagined they could create a socialist society overnight. The official Soviet policy instead was usually to primarily support "bourgeois nationalists", which would oversee the transition to some form of industrial capitalism (broad definition) first. This is of course ironic given the Soviet Union's own origins, but I digress.

Nevertheless, when a partner country was (a) riddled with palace chaos, and (b) facing open rebellion in the countryside, they intervened. Sound familiar? Criticizing the USSR specifically for wanting to promote its Way of Life is laughable from the perspective of an American (which I am left to assume you are, given that Vatican City residence is unlikely), especially considering the great caution and reluctance with which they did so.

Now as to the content of that Way of Life? If it looked anything like most Warsaw Pact countries or the USSR itself, I agree, it's not a good worth exporting. But any skilled rhetorician could say the same thing about liberalism--especially with how it arrived in the Third World.

I don’t get your argument. I never that the USA wasn’t imperialist, it was arguably just as imperialist as the Soviet Union. It’s just that the Soviet Union was undeniably more imperialist than Nazi Germany. Anyone who brings up “socialism in one country” is committing a massive red herring- that policy only existed for roughly a decade before the very man who instated it began to invade other countries to annex them. Clearly, “socialism is one country” wasn’t taken very seriously as official state policy for the duration of the Soviet Union.

And the Soviet Union’s ideology was significantly worse than the United State’s. So yeah, their imperialism of spreading it was worse than our imperialism of spreading ours. 

Nazi Germany wanted to spread their revolution to half of Europe. The Soviet Union wanted their revolution to every single corner of the globe, and would’ve done it without hesitation had they been stupid enough to not realize it would’ve led to their death (notice how they stopped invading countries in naked forms of aggression with the advent of the nuclear bomb).
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2022, 10:00:07 PM »
« Edited: August 12, 2022, 10:07:55 PM by KaiserDave »

TheReckoning being historically illiterate and minimizing Nazi evil? What a surprise. I wonder when mods will act? I have nothing else to say, it was precisely a year ago I had the delightful task of explaining to him that Lincoln would never have supported a genocide of the south. He is impossible.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2022, 10:02:32 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.

All of the Continent except Spain, Switzerland, and whatever parts Italy was clinging to is NOT " only half of Europe".

Also, this ignores the African campaign.
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2022, 10:09:20 PM »

There has never been a state in human history more depraved and evil than the USSR.

Oh come on. I get what you're trying to communicate here, but come on. It wasn't even the most depraved and evil Marxist-Leninist state.

The one thing that I will say about the USSR is that it’s imperialism makes it a unique force of evil. For example, Nazi Germany may have have been more evil with what it did within its borders, but it’s carnage was intended to be limited to the confines of Europe. The USSR had clear intentions to export its ideology and practices to every corner of the globe.

'Nazi Germany wasn't imperialist'

Truly the best take.

Nazi Germany’s imperialism extended only to about half of Europe. The Soviet Union desired every square inch to be under its control, either directly on indirectly. These two scenarios are not comparable.

It's the other way around.

Soviets wanted a buffer zone to insulate Moscow, that's it.

Lebensraum is quite different.

The Soviet Union did not want a “buffer zone,” they wanted the entire domination of the whole world. There’s a reason why pretty much every single Marxist-Leninist political party got such intense funding from the Soviet Union, and why they invaded countries such as Afghanistan whenever any sort of rebellion against that order happened.

Meanwhile, Lebensraum was about half of Europe.

All of the Continent except Spain, Switzerland, and whatever parts Italy was clinging to is NOT " only half of Europe".

Also, this ignores the African campaign.

1. The British Isles, Finland, Iceland, Iberia, Italy, the vast majority of France, the Balkans, Romania, Hungary and a significant portion of European Russia is, indeed, half of Europe.

2. The Africa campaign was fought mostly to weaken the UK and use materials from the region to support the war effort, as well as support Italy’s expansion gains. Annexation/puppetization was never a goal.

TheReckoning being historically illiterate and minimizing Nazi evil? What a surprise. I wonder when mods will act? I have nothing else to say, it was precisely a year ago I had the delightful task of explaining to him that Lincoln would never have supported a genocide of the south. He is impossible.

Lol, the Nazis made it very clear where they wanted to expand their influence and where they didn’t (look up “Lebensraum.”) It’s not like this is a place where there is a lot of debate. The idea that the Nazis wanted to take over the entire world is fantasy.
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