Does Gen Z have a more "French" view of political philosophy?
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  Does Gen Z have a more "French" view of political philosophy?
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Question: Does Gen Z have a more "French" view of political philosophy?
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BRTD
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« on: August 05, 2022, 12:27:58 PM »

In reference to this post spawned by a debate after Antonio proposed raising the age of consent to 25:

I think the issue here is that Antonio is French and believes in certain quite classic principles of French political thought, notably the idea that the State is or at least ought to be a moral undertaking. This contrasts with the Anglo-German conception of the State which holds that it is a morally neutral entity that simply exists to implement the commands of political actors.* So from Antonio's perspective something that he considers to be morally abhorrent must logically - at least in a somewhat more ideal world - be prohibited by law. Which is a stance quite alien to those of us brought up with a different concept of the State and its purpose.

*Which, perhaps paradoxically, was not historically inconsistent with the idea - critical to traditional Conservatism across Northern Europe once upon a time - that nevertheless one must be loyal to it, absolutely.

That would actually explain a lot of the very strange views and blazing takes on social media from teenagers as well as that (somewhat ironically) there's probably non-neglible support for having an age of consent above 18 amongst those under 25 while for above 25s such a suggestion would probably be seen as a joke.
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Vosem
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2022, 12:34:49 PM »

I think something like the reverse -- the state as an inherently immoral undertaking -- is one of those base assumptions of the libertarian right that has been bleeding into other kinds of worldviews.
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2022, 12:45:09 PM »

The age of consent is an interesting example to bring up considering the French history (and even present) on that one...
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BRTD
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2022, 12:47:31 PM »

The age of consent is an interesting example to bring up considering the French history (and even present) on that one...
Yeah I thought that too and even noted that in a post in response.
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Brother Jonathan
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2022, 10:13:36 PM »

I think something like the reverse -- the state as an inherently immoral undertaking -- is one of those base assumptions of the libertarian right that has been bleeding into other kinds of worldviews.

This also strikes me as being a much better basis for understanding Gen Z's view of political philosophy.  The idea of the state as a moral undertaking (or of working towards moral ends) is very much anathema to most members of Gen Z by virtue of the relativism that frankly permeates almost all Gen Z discourse and understanding. Really, I doubt there are many (if any) institutions in general that the bulk of Gen Z consider moral undertakings or as properly turned towards moral ends, which is concerning to me. They tend to bristle at the notion that institutions should have any role in shaping individuals morally.

That's not to say that there are not elements within Gen Z that believe in restricting or regulating behavior out of a concern for justice, a sizeable group does, but the conception of justice there is not really rooted in any classical moral version of justice.
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2022, 07:43:49 AM »

In a word, no. Public confidence in the state has never been lower.
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Primadonna Socialist
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2022, 08:10:37 AM »

In a word, no. Public confidence in the present state has never been lower.

I think it's an important distinction.
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Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2022, 10:57:18 AM »
« Edited: August 06, 2022, 11:34:46 AM by Boris Is Broken »

I think something like the reverse -- the state as an inherently immoral undertaking -- is one of those base assumptions of the libertarian right that has been bleeding into other kinds of worldviews.

This also strikes me as being a much better basis for understanding Gen Z's view of political philosophy.  The idea of the state as a moral undertaking (or of working towards moral ends) is very much anathema to most members of Gen Z by virtue of the relativism that frankly permeates almost all Gen Z discourse and understanding. Really, I doubt there are many (if any) institutions in general that the bulk of Gen Z consider moral undertakings or as properly turned towards moral ends, which is concerning to me. They tend to bristle at the notion that institutions should have any role in shaping individuals morally.

That's not to say that there are not elements within Gen Z that believe in restricting or regulating behavior out of a concern for justice, a sizeable group does, but the conception of justice there is not really rooted in any classical moral version of justice.

I've noticed among a lot of younger people an intense and (I think) bizarre intuitivism about moral questions; you have the Right views or you Don't, on some core presocialization level. It conflicts with what people like to say about "educating oneself", but it is pretty clearly part of the underlying thought process, one that leaves very little room for moral education in any of the umpteen more traditional senses.
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2022, 02:47:27 PM »

I had long been under the impression, after being told so for years by Europeans mostly not on Atlas, that most of the Western countries hold a much more libertine view of sex, as well as public nudity, compared to "the prudish Americans." I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on that, but if anything I've felt that Antonio was more outside the mainstream for his country with regard to morality views.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2022, 03:59:02 PM »

I think the main thing to consider about "Generation Z" is that for the most part they are teenagers or early 20s. And teenagers going through a rebellious phase, trying to stake out an identity and being very earnest about this is something that basically every generation of teenagers goes through.

Of course there are details that are passed on by the very politicised and social media centric era that they grow up in. But on the whole, they're young people being young people like young people always have been. And getting grouchy and cynical about the things that young activists believe in isn't an interesting or new or original outlook. It's just being the same out of touch, grouchy, small c conservative that every previous generation has also always ended up being.
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MiddleRoad
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2022, 06:42:44 PM »

It’ll be wild watching Gen Z destroy every single institution ever created because those institutions are some kind of “ist.” I look forward to churches, classic works of literature all being destroyed, forever, and to the state devolving into places like CHAZ. What a beautiful, anarchic, violent future awaits. It’ll make the French Revolution and the iconoclastic movement look like child’s play.
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Dr. MB
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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2022, 07:41:55 PM »

It’ll be wild watching Gen Z destroy every single institution ever created because those institutions are some kind of “ist.” I look forward to churches, classic works of literature all being destroyed, forever, and to the state devolving into places like CHAZ. What a beautiful, anarchic, violent future awaits. It’ll make the French Revolution and the iconoclastic movement look like child’s play.
It’s not Gen Z who are the perpetrators of the present cancel culture though
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MiddleRoad
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2022, 07:57:17 PM »

It’ll be wild watching Gen Z destroy every single institution ever created because those institutions are some kind of “ist.” I look forward to churches, classic works of literature all being destroyed, forever, and to the state devolving into places like CHAZ. What a beautiful, anarchic, violent future awaits. It’ll make the French Revolution and the iconoclastic movement look like child’s play.
It’s not Gen Z who are the perpetrators of the present cancel culture though

They grew up in it, however, and see nothing wrong with it; they’ll be so vicious they’d make Robespierre blush.
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BRTD
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2022, 12:56:15 AM »

I think the main thing to consider about "Generation Z" is that for the most part they are teenagers or early 20s. And teenagers going through a rebellious phase, trying to stake out an identity and being very earnest about this is something that basically every generation of teenagers goes through.

Of course there are details that are passed on by the very politicised and social media centric era that they grow up in. But on the whole, they're young people being young people like young people always have been. And getting grouchy and cynical about the things that young activists believe in isn't an interesting or new or original outlook. It's just being the same out of touch, grouchy, small c conservative that every previous generation has also always ended up being.
But the thing is they're not being rebellious. They seem to be significantly more prudish than we Millennials are and certainly were at their age. Look at how much we drank and partied and rebelled in comparison to them. Also is still wearing masks in public and refusing to go to parties or concerts or public gatherings rebellious? I guess maybe in a sense but it's a completely different sense than we're use to.
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BRTD
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2022, 12:58:08 AM »

I had long been under the impression, after being told so for years by Europeans mostly not on Atlas, that most of the Western countries hold a much more libertine view of sex, as well as public nudity, compared to "the prudish Americans." I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on that, but if anything I've felt that Antonio was more outside the mainstream for his country with regard to morality views.
Well yes, but we're talking about general outlook instead of the specifics. The truth is Antonio's view on the age of consent would be considered utterly batsh!t insane pretty much everywhere, but the one group who seems to agree with it are extremely online Gen Zers. I'm not saying it's a majority of them by any means but also look at Ferguson and Scarlet.
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AtorBoltox
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2022, 01:39:05 AM »

Everyone in this thread needs to spend much less time on the internet
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The Triturated Tribade
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2022, 01:54:59 AM »

I think the main thing to consider about "Generation Z" is that for the most part they are teenagers or early 20s. And teenagers going through a rebellious phase, trying to stake out an identity and being very earnest about this is something that basically every generation of teenagers goes through.

Of course there are details that are passed on by the very politicised and social media centric era that they grow up in. But on the whole, they're young people being young people like young people always have been. And getting grouchy and cynical about the things that young activists believe in isn't an interesting or new or original outlook. It's just being the same out of touch, grouchy, small c conservative that every previous generation has also always ended up being.
But the thing is they're not being rebellious. They seem to be significantly more prudish than we Millennials are and certainly were at their age. Look at how much we drank and partied and rebelled in comparison to them. Also is still wearing masks in public and refusing to go to parties or concerts or public gatherings rebellious? I guess maybe in a sense but it's a completely different sense than we're use to.

Your commitment to the unbearable lightness of being an expired drunken sophomoric collegiate bro long past the time to hang that hat up is almost perversely admirable in the tragedy of its attempts to stave off midlife crisis. But plenty of Zoomers still join frats and partake in all of the drunken sex offenses that they were made to justify and protect, so you're really just projecting.
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Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2022, 01:57:47 AM »

I had long been under the impression, after being told so for years by Europeans mostly not on Atlas, that most of the Western countries hold a much more libertine view of sex, as well as public nudity, compared to "the prudish Americans." I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on that, but if anything I've felt that Antonio was more outside the mainstream for his country with regard to morality views.
Well yes, but we're talking about general outlook instead of the specifics. The truth is Antonio's view on the age of consent would be considered utterly batsh!t insane pretty much everywhere, but the one group who seems to agree with it are extremely online Gen Zers. I'm not saying it's a majority of them by any means but also look at Ferguson and Scarlet.

Of all the people who participated in that argument with Antonio, Antonio himself is probably the least committed to his original position (which he walked back almost immediately). Scarlet is a strong candidate for the most-improved poster of the past decade. So two of the three people you're citing here really don't actually hold the sorts of views you're attributing to them except by comparison to your own political approach.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2022, 02:05:11 AM »

Literally every generation thinks that the generation before them is too old-fashioned and unwilling to accept progress but that the generation after them is taking things too far.
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MiddleRoad
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2022, 02:21:58 AM »

Literally every generation thinks that the generation before them is too old-fashioned and unwilling to accept progress but that the generation after them is taking things too far.

But what happens when it becomes true?

Gen Z was raised by the internet. The idea of them having any sort of power is scary. I’ve not yet met one Gen Z person who wasn’t some form of anarchist.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2022, 07:56:11 AM »

It’ll be wild watching Gen Z destroy every single institution ever created because those institutions are some kind of “ist.” I look forward to churches, classic works of literature all being destroyed, forever, and to the state devolving into places like CHAZ. What a beautiful, anarchic, violent future awaits. It’ll make the French Revolution and the iconoclastic movement look like child’s play.

Do you spend all your time engaging in paranoid fantasies? Go outside.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2022, 08:06:30 AM »

I think the main thing to consider about "Generation Z" is that for the most part they are teenagers or early 20s. And teenagers going through a rebellious phase, trying to stake out an identity and being very earnest about this is something that basically every generation of teenagers goes through.

Of course there are details that are passed on by the very politicised and social media centric era that they grow up in. But on the whole, they're young people being young people like young people always have been. And getting grouchy and cynical about the things that young activists believe in isn't an interesting or new or original outlook. It's just being the same out of touch, grouchy, small c conservative that every previous generation has also always ended up being.
But the thing is they're not being rebellious. They seem to be significantly more prudish than we Millennials are and certainly were at their age. Look at how much we drank and partied and rebelled in comparison to them. Also is still wearing masks in public and refusing to go to parties or concerts or public gatherings rebellious? I guess maybe in a sense but it's a completely different sense than we're use to.

Being prudish and moralising about things like sex would be a way of rebelling against the social norms of their parents, no?
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BRTD
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2022, 10:38:27 AM »
« Edited: August 07, 2022, 10:42:21 AM by The sun fell down again last night on my anger »

I think the main thing to consider about "Generation Z" is that for the most part they are teenagers or early 20s. And teenagers going through a rebellious phase, trying to stake out an identity and being very earnest about this is something that basically every generation of teenagers goes through.

Of course there are details that are passed on by the very politicised and social media centric era that they grow up in. But on the whole, they're young people being young people like young people always have been. And getting grouchy and cynical about the things that young activists believe in isn't an interesting or new or original outlook. It's just being the same out of touch, grouchy, small c conservative that every previous generation has also always ended up being.
But the thing is they're not being rebellious. They seem to be significantly more prudish than we Millennials are and certainly were at their age. Look at how much we drank and partied and rebelled in comparison to them. Also is still wearing masks in public and refusing to go to parties or concerts or public gatherings rebellious? I guess maybe in a sense but it's a completely different sense than we're use to.

Your commitment to the unbearable lightness of being an expired drunken sophomoric collegiate bro long past the time to hang that hat up is almost perversely admirable in the tragedy of its attempts to stave off midlife crisis. But plenty of Zoomers still join frats and partake in all of the drunken sex offenses that they were made to justify and protect, so you're really just projecting.
I never joined a frat and as you can see by my posting history have always been anti-frat. Also it's been quite awhile since I got drunk....during pandemic lockdown out of sheer boredom and despair, prior to that it was years earlier. No I don't get drunk seeing bands even if I didn't drive, it makes it less fun. Unlike in college I know my limits when I'm going to music shows now.
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BRTD
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2022, 10:39:28 AM »

I had long been under the impression, after being told so for years by Europeans mostly not on Atlas, that most of the Western countries hold a much more libertine view of sex, as well as public nudity, compared to "the prudish Americans." I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment on that, but if anything I've felt that Antonio was more outside the mainstream for his country with regard to morality views.
Well yes, but we're talking about general outlook instead of the specifics. The truth is Antonio's view on the age of consent would be considered utterly batsh!t insane pretty much everywhere, but the one group who seems to agree with it are extremely online Gen Zers. I'm not saying it's a majority of them by any means but also look at Ferguson and Scarlet.

Of all the people who participated in that argument with Antonio, Antonio himself is probably the least committed to his original position (which he walked back almost immediately). Scarlet is a strong candidate for the most-improved poster of the past decade. So two of the three people you're citing here really don't actually hold the sorts of views you're attributing to them except by comparison to your own political approach.
Scarlet is still effectively arguing for permanent mask mandates.
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BRTD
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2022, 10:47:19 AM »

I think the main thing to consider about "Generation Z" is that for the most part they are teenagers or early 20s. And teenagers going through a rebellious phase, trying to stake out an identity and being very earnest about this is something that basically every generation of teenagers goes through.

Of course there are details that are passed on by the very politicised and social media centric era that they grow up in. But on the whole, they're young people being young people like young people always have been. And getting grouchy and cynical about the things that young activists believe in isn't an interesting or new or original outlook. It's just being the same out of touch, grouchy, small c conservative that every previous generation has also always ended up being.
But the thing is they're not being rebellious. They seem to be significantly more prudish than we Millennials are and certainly were at their age. Look at how much we drank and partied and rebelled in comparison to them. Also is still wearing masks in public and refusing to go to parties or concerts or public gatherings rebellious? I guess maybe in a sense but it's a completely different sense than we're use to.

Being prudish and moralising about things like sex would be a way of rebelling against the social norms of their parents, no?
In a sense I guess but look what the Boomers did in their youth. And yet we did basically the exact same thing. Also Gen Z aren't exactly rebelling by.... following the law (ironic as that is from the ACAB quoting crowd.)
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