Harvard & UNC affirmative action cases to be argued on Oct 31
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 30, 2022, 10:19:13 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Constitution and Law (Moderator: Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin)
  Harvard & UNC affirmative action cases to be argued on Oct 31
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Harvard & UNC affirmative action cases to be argued on Oct 31  (Read 1020 times)
David Hume
davidhume
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,086
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: 1.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: August 04, 2022, 12:02:17 AM »

As per court orders on July 22, 2022,

https://www.supremecourt.gov/qp/21-00707qp.pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/qp/20-01199qp.pdf

The two cases are no longer consolidated. Both of them will be argued on Oct 31, 2022.


There could be an interesting situation. If there is another vacancy on the conservative side, and another conservative justice recuses on the other case (say Kavanaugh or Gursuch was a board member of UNC), meaning each case would be decided seven justices.

For the Harvard case, by a 4-3 vote, SCOTUS may overrule Grutter and declare affirmative action unconstitutional racial discrimination, and racial diversity of student body not a compelling state interest to justify that. (Assume only one conservative defection). Yet in the UNC case, with Jackson's vote, the vote is  4-3 to reaffirm Grutter. What happens?
Logged
GM Team Member NewYorkExpress
NewYorkExpress
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,331
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2022, 01:17:47 AM »

I suspect we'll have either 6-3 or 5-4 decisions to overturn Grutter with a non-zero chance at a 7-2 vote to overturn (Sotomayor and Brown Jackson being the only obvious votes to uphold. While I think Kagan vote to uphold Grutter, I can see her going the other way, if the courts decision is narrowly applied, for example the court rules that it's similar to the old Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, and allows schools that don't have a prior discrimination history to not use affirmative action at all, while requiring all schools to continue to do so.)
Logged
Farmlands
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 841
Portugal


Political Matrix
E: -5.16, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2022, 03:24:05 AM »

No point in imagining such scenarios. Jackson will be the only recusal, in Harvard, which has already been clear for months. Affirmative action in college admissions will certainly finally be overturned, very likely in 6-2 and 6-3 votes.
Logged
Born-again Cristian
Donerail
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,095
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -1.39


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2022, 04:25:46 AM »

No point in imagining such scenarios. Jackson will be the only recusal, in Harvard, which has already been clear for months. Affirmative action in college admissions will certainly finally be overturned, very likely in 6-2 and 6-3 votes.
The remaining question, I think, is how far it will sweep—whether this ends up just being a decision about college admissions, or whether it will extend to race-based hiring and contracting as well.
Logged
David Hume
davidhume
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,086
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: 1.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2022, 10:36:28 AM »

No point in imagining such scenarios. Jackson will be the only recusal, in Harvard, which has already been clear for months. Affirmative action in college admissions will certainly finally be overturned, very likely in 6-2 and 6-3 votes.
The remaining question, I think, is how far it will sweep—whether this ends up just being a decision about college admissions, or whether it will extend to race-based hiring and contracting as well.
The court order made it clear

"Should this Court overrule Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003), and hold
that institutions of higher education cannot use race as a factor in admissions?"

the scope is limited to higher education only. Other levels of education will likely be addressed in the Virginia high school case. Hiring would need other cases as well, which likely would arrive soon.
Logged
slothdem
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 519


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2022, 01:53:27 PM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.
Logged
David Hume
davidhume
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,086
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: 1.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2022, 03:25:03 PM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.
If so, they are not true conservatives. Conservatives value individual liberties and equal opportunity, and are against identity politics of all sorts.

Are you upset that NBA's racial composition resembles Africa?
Logged
Born-again Cristian
Donerail
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,095
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -1.39


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2022, 05:32:31 PM »

No point in imagining such scenarios. Jackson will be the only recusal, in Harvard, which has already been clear for months. Affirmative action in college admissions will certainly finally be overturned, very likely in 6-2 and 6-3 votes.
The remaining question, I think, is how far it will sweep—whether this ends up just being a decision about college admissions, or whether it will extend to race-based hiring and contracting as well.
The court order made it clear

"Should this Court overrule Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003), and hold
that institutions of higher education cannot use race as a factor in admissions?"

the scope is limited to higher education only. Other levels of education will likely be addressed in the Virginia high school case. Hiring would need other cases as well, which likely would arrive soon.
I'm aware of the mechanics. But there are a lot of ways to write an opinion overruling Grutter, some of which would discourage challenges to other systems of racial preferences. If the Court says, for example, "the use of racial preferences is statistically no longer be necessary to further the interest at stake in Grutter," that would dampen litigation applying the case to other situations, because it would allow judges a way to distinguish the ruling ("your district is less integrated than the avg university, so racial preferences are still okay here"). By contrast, if the Court says "affirmative action in university admissions is unconstitutional because the Equal Protection Clause prohibits all forms of racial preferences everywhere all the time, please file cases overturning those" it would have sweeping effects very quickly.
Logged
David Hume
davidhume
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,086
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: 1.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2022, 05:58:17 PM »

No point in imagining such scenarios. Jackson will be the only recusal, in Harvard, which has already been clear for months. Affirmative action in college admissions will certainly finally be overturned, very likely in 6-2 and 6-3 votes.
The remaining question, I think, is how far it will sweep—whether this ends up just being a decision about college admissions, or whether it will extend to race-based hiring and contracting as well.
The court order made it clear

"Should this Court overrule Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003), and hold
that institutions of higher education cannot use race as a factor in admissions?"

the scope is limited to higher education only. Other levels of education will likely be addressed in the Virginia high school case. Hiring would need other cases as well, which likely would arrive soon.
I'm aware of the mechanics. But there are a lot of ways to write an opinion overruling Grutter, some of which would discourage challenges to other systems of racial preferences. If the Court says, for example, "the use of racial preferences is statistically no longer be necessary to further the interest at stake in Grutter," that would dampen litigation applying the case to other situations, because it would allow judges a way to distinguish the ruling ("your district is less integrated than the avg university, so racial preferences are still okay here"). By contrast, if the Court says "affirmative action in university admissions is unconstitutional because the Equal Protection Clause prohibits all forms of racial preferences everywhere all the time, please file cases overturning those" it would have sweeping effects very quickly.
I don't disagree with what you said, however, cases challenging affirmative action will always be filed with ample numbers, even with a less supportive court. IIRC the case for VA high school was already accepted.

For these two cases, since Roberts is very firm against any racial preferences, and affirmative action is not popular so ending them won't harm the court's image, I expect a sweeping ruling.
Logged
Kamala’s side hoe
khuzifenq
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,997
United States


P
WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2022, 06:54:07 PM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.

Chilaquiles, pho, roti prata, latkes, and jollof rice everywhere.  Diversity and POC representation, you love to see it!
Logged
Born-again Cristian
Donerail
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,095
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -1.39


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2022, 07:08:31 PM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.
Nah, Harvard knows a loss is coming and has already dropped its SAT requirement in response. When admissions are solely based on "intangibles," with no statistics, they'll basically be able to keep on doing the same thing — it'll just be a lot harder to challenge legally. White mediocrities with money and connections will always have a place at Harvard Smiley
Logged
Official Penguin Books Account
AMB1996
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,175
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: 5.74

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2022, 09:21:47 AM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.

Brother (or sister), what universe are you living in?
Logged
Unwarranted Self-Victimizer
theflyingmongoose
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,048
Norway


Political Matrix
E: 3.41, S: -1.29

P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2022, 03:28:48 PM »

Hopefully AA is struck down. Ivy League schools have a long history of discrimination against Jews and hopefully this will give us an equal chance.
Logged
Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,522


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2022, 11:24:47 PM »

If so, they are not true conservatives. Conservatives value individual liberties and equal opportunity, and are against identity politics of all sorts.

Are you upset that NBA's racial composition resembles Africa?

This has more to do with America's cultural particulars than with the dictionary definition of conservatism per se, though.
Logged
politicallefty
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,707
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.87, S: -9.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2022, 11:59:06 PM »

This is an issue where I part with the left-wing of the Court. I think affirmative action is a blatant violation of the Equal Protection Clause. I think it's bad policy as well, though that has nothing to do with the constitutional issues at hand. The issues of systemic racism are real, but they require a different solution that is compatible with the Equal Protection Clause.
Logged
David Hume
davidhume
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,086
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: 1.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2022, 02:29:07 AM »

If so, they are not true conservatives. Conservatives value individual liberties and equal opportunity, and are against identity politics of all sorts.

Are you upset that NBA's racial composition resembles Africa?

This has more to do with America's cultural particulars than with the dictionary definition of conservatism per se, though.
In fact, Classical Liberals/Libertarians fit this description as well. Only Social Liberals don't.
Logged
slothdem
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 519


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2022, 10:55:47 AM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.

Brother (or sister), what universe are you living in?

This universe? The angst conservatives feel toward Harvard isn't because they don't love Harvard - it's frustration that Harvard doesn't love them back. There's a reason why all of the Trump-Justice vetting reports had paragraphs that were like "President Trump was particularly impressed that Kavanaugh went to Yale for undergrad and law school." Ron DeSantis hates Harvard and Yale so much that he has degrees from both. Hawley, Cruz, Cotton..... today's young movement conservatives were all ivy tower educated, and their reactionary politics are bigly informed by being in the ideological minority on campus. There is no place in America as reactionary as any College Republicans student organization, outside a few white nationalist militia camps in the PNW.
Logged
slothdem
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 519


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2022, 11:07:36 AM »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.
If so, they are not true conservatives. Conservatives value individual liberties and equal opportunity, and are against identity politics of all sorts.

Are you upset that NBA's racial composition resembles Africa?

Conservatives do not value individual liberty or equal opportunity, the later of which is literally antithetical to conservatism. To the extent that conservatives do value individual liberty, it's very much in a "freedom of the master" construction.

Conservatism as a political movement began in France in 1790 under the premise that traditional hierarchies (such as hereditary nobility and the clergy) have existed for a very long time so there is probably a good reason for that and the hierarchy should not be changed. Identity - and in particular, the hierarchy of identified groups - is the foundation for all conservative politics.

While Ivy League schools are substantially meritocratic (the number of legacy and athlete admissions is far outweighed by the genuinely brilliant admits) they are also hierarchical in a way that is deeply conservative. The modern divide between these schools is entirely because very few students, professors, and school administrators vote Republican.
Logged
Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,522


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2022, 11:11:42 PM »
« Edited: August 10, 2022, 11:16:13 PM by Actual Necromancer Joe Manchin »

Affirmative action will lose because Harvard is guilty. Conservatives will cheer at first because there will be fewer black and hispanic students at their beloved Harvard, but before long they will recoil in horror as the student body's at America's most elite private schools begin to resemble that of UCLA.

Brother (or sister), what universe are you living in?

This universe? The angst conservatives feel toward Harvard isn't because they don't love Harvard - it's frustration that Harvard doesn't love them back. There's a reason why all of the Trump-Justice vetting reports had paragraphs that were like "President Trump was particularly impressed that Kavanaugh went to Yale for undergrad and law school." Ron DeSantis hates Harvard and Yale so much that he has degrees from both. Hawley, Cruz, Cotton..... today's young movement conservatives were all ivy tower educated, and their reactionary politics are bigly informed by being in the ideological minority on campus. There is no place in America as reactionary as any College Republicans student organization, outside a few white nationalist militia camps in the PNW.

I remember when Trump would appoint this or that SCOTUS justice and the talking heads would go on the news and say "well, the President is a credentialist...", as if this was an accepted trait of the man who gave us Secretary of State Rex Tillerson (credential: CEO of a company often described using the word "multinational") and HUD Secretary Ben Carson (credential: black), rather than what it obviously was, which was some bizarre class hangup about lawyers specifically and, at least the first two times, Ivies specifically. Biden is the first President in something like fifty years to be an alumnus of a public university other than West Point or Annapolis, and something tells me the next one will be an old, boring Democrat as well.
Logged
Unwarranted Self-Victimizer
theflyingmongoose
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,048
Norway


Political Matrix
E: 3.41, S: -1.29

P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2022, 12:08:01 AM »

I swear if SCOTUS rules the other way on the only issue I agree with them on I'll be mad.
Logged
Christian mosh pit go mosh
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 103,465
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2022, 12:58:47 PM »

I swear if SCOTUS rules the other way on the only issue I agree with them on I'll be mad.
The only way I can see that happening is if John Roberts decides that Sandra Day O'Connor's timeline has to be respected (which is kind of silly and arbitrary but still a very John Roberts-esque thing to do) and he can get one other conservative on his side too (very unlikely but Kavanaugh and ACB would be most likely, Kavanaugh because he's most likely to flip with him and ACB because she might be a bit more woke on racial issues than the other conservatives.)

However if a case came up after O'Connor's timeline expired than Roberts would be a definite vote to overturn.
Logged
Born-again Cristian
Donerail
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,095
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -1.39


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2022, 01:06:22 PM »

O'Connor flipped on the basis of amicus briefs submitted by military leaders and corporations, both of which featured heavily in the opinion and at oral argument. If Roberts and Kavanaugh flip it'll be on that basis. But that, to me, seems exceedingly unlikely.
Logged
David Hume
davidhume
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,086
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: 1.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2022, 04:55:50 PM »

I swear if SCOTUS rules the other way on the only issue I agree with them on I'll be mad.
The only way I can see that happening is if John Roberts decides that Sandra Day O'Connor's timeline has to be respected (which is kind of silly and arbitrary but still a very John Roberts-esque thing to do) and he can get one other conservative on his side too (very unlikely but Kavanaugh and ACB would be most likely, Kavanaugh because he's most likely to flip with him and ACB because she might be a bit more woke on racial issues than the other conservatives.)

However if a case came up after O'Connor's timeline expired than Roberts would be a definite vote to overturn.
The O‘Connor 25 years is a dicta, which is not legally binding.
Logged
politicallefty
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,707
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.87, S: -9.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2022, 05:05:08 PM »

There are a number of issues where Roberts prefers an incrementalist approach. I do not believe this is one of them. I'm more surprised that affirmative action has lasted as long as it has. It does seem to have nine lives, so to speak. I thought Fisher II was going to be the end considering Kennedy had joined Rehnquist's dissent in Grutter.

I would be surprised if there aren't now six Justices willing to overrule Grutter and if Roberts isn't the one writing the decision.

I'm more troubled by the UNC case, which involves low-income and first-generation students. I think that's a separate issue. I'm not sure how a conservative majority that is loath to use the Equal Protection Clause for issues not explicitly invoking race will thread that needle.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.055 seconds with 13 queries.