Do you believe people should be forced to remain married against their will?
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October 03, 2022, 12:05:35 PM
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  Do you believe people should be forced to remain married against their will?
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Question: Should a married couple be force to remain together, even if one or both parties want to end the marriage?
#1
I support forced marriage (D).
 
#2
I oppose forced marriage (D).
 
#3
I support forced marriage (R).
 
#4
I oppose forced marriage (R).
 
#5
I support forced marriage (I/O).
 
#6
I oppose forced marriage (I/O).
 
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Total Voters: 56

Author Topic: Do you believe people should be forced to remain married against their will?  (Read 761 times)
Ferguson97
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« on: August 02, 2022, 09:32:20 AM »

What is your opinion on no-fault divorce?
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Sir Mohamed 🇺🇸 🇺🇦
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2022, 09:46:32 AM »

Oppose forced marriage (sane)
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LBJer
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2022, 10:04:37 AM »

No.  This is an absolute no-brainer.  No one should be forced to stay married for ANY reason whatsoever.  It doesn't matter if an outsider doesn't think their reason for leaving the marriage is a good one or not--that's something that's solely for the person who's married and considering leaving to decide. 
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SWE
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2022, 11:04:25 AM »

Divorce being easily accessible for any reason is an important Hallmark of any free society
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DT
Republican95
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2022, 12:01:46 PM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010?  lol

And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc. 

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
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LBJer
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2022, 12:29:34 PM »

Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason. 

I would say not wanting to be married to someone anymore--for whatever reason--is its own justification. 
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SWE
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2022, 12:46:38 PM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc. 

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?
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Aurelius
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2022, 01:13:30 PM »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.
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LBJer
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2022, 01:36:39 PM »
« Edited: August 03, 2022, 02:28:19 PM by LBJer »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.

Kids are gonna realize if their parents are unhappy and don't really want to be together.  That situation is not going to make them happy.  
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2022, 01:43:06 PM »

No (not Saudi Arabian)
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SWE
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2022, 01:43:17 PM »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.
There are no circumstances where forcing parents to stay together against their will when kids are involved isn't cruel to the kids
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Sinemafan
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2022, 01:57:09 PM »

Marriage should not be incentivized in any way by the government, and divorce should be made as easy as possible. (not a Neanderthal)
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2022, 01:59:03 PM »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.

As a child of divorce, this is a monstrously stupid idea.
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DT
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2022, 11:04:47 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 
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DT
Republican95
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2022, 11:10:51 AM »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.
There are no circumstances where forcing parents to stay together against their will when kids are involved isn't cruel to the kids

Disagree.  Adults pursuing divorce are more than perfectly capable of being emotional, selfish and short-sighted much to the detriment of their kids (and this routinely does happen.)

And there are plenty of justified reasons to get divorced - abandonment, adultery, abuse, etc.  It's probably way better for parents to get divorced in those cases, but we're only talking about no-fault divorces here.   
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LBJer
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2022, 11:14:01 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

And that's how it should be.  One spouse shouldn't be able to hold the other hostage. 
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2022, 11:16:04 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

How does it benefit the couple or society to force them to stay together against one or both of their wills?
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DT
Republican95
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2022, 11:17:05 AM »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.

Kids are gonna realize if their parents are unhappy and don't really want to be together.  That situation is not going to make them happy. 

How can this be true when all of the social science literature suggests kids from divorced/single-parent households have much worse outcomes than kids with married parents?  Marriage offers a whole suite of advantages to families for which state policy can never be a perfect substitute
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LBJer
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2022, 11:20:55 AM »

No-fault divorce with kids involved is narcissistic hedonism. Make parents demonstrate good cause or wait until the kids are grown up.

Kids are gonna realize if their parents are unhappy and don't really want to be together.  That situation is not going to make them happy. 

How can this be true when all of the social science literature suggests kids from divorced/single-parent households have much worse outcomes than kids with married parents?  Marriage offers a whole suite of advantages to families for which state policy can never be a perfect substitute

Your argument is flawed because "married parents" includes happily as well as unhappily married parents. 
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DT
Republican95
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2022, 11:21:37 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

And that's how it should be.  One spouse shouldn't be able to hold the other hostage. 

Should a landlord be able to hold a tenant hostage?  One party cannot initiate termination of a lease agreement without cause.  Why should marriage be any different? 
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LBJer
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2022, 11:26:49 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

And that's how it should be.  One spouse shouldn't be able to hold the other hostage. 

Should a landlord be able to hold a tenant hostage?  One party cannot initiate termination of a lease agreement without cause.  Why should marriage be any different? 

I find this argument rather absurd.  An agreement to stay married to someone for the rest of your life is not, by its very nature, a normal agreement.  It's quite different in what it entails than a landlord/tenant or any similar agreement.  I shouldn't even have to explain why.
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DT
Republican95
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2022, 11:27:25 AM »
« Edited: August 04, 2022, 11:41:04 AM by DT »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

How does it benefit the couple or society to force them to stay together against one or both of their wills?

The societal benefit is that marriage encourages people to share resources and plan for the future in a way that benefits multiple outcomes like household income, parenting quality, health insurance, home ownership, etc.

If your spouse is a deadbeat or abusive then you probably aren't going to capture most of these benefits, but that's establishing cause for a divorce.  We're explicitly talking about the no-cause scenario ITT.   
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2022, 11:29:23 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

How does it benefit the couple or society to force them to stay together against one or both of their wills?

The societal benefit is that marriage encourages people to share resources and plan for the future in a way that benefits multiple outcomes like household income, parenting quality, health insurance, home ownership, etc.

That's the social benefit of marriage. I asked what is the benefit of forcing people to do it against their will?
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DT
Republican95
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2022, 11:40:35 AM »

Dishonest poll.  Did New York State have "forced marriage" until 2010? 


It did, yes. Not sure what the argument otherwise would be

Quote
And having to demonstrate fault in divorce cases is not "forced marriage."  Marriage is an agreement people freely enter into; if they later want to get out of it, there is nothing onerous about making them demonstrate a justified reason.  You have to do the same to get out of rental leases, sales agreements, mortgages, employment contracts, etc.

Ideally, divorce should be processed as an adversarial civil action with one party having to demonstrate fault or culpability of the other.  There are many justified reasons for divorce - adultery, abandonment, felony, abuse, etc.  Judges need to hear these reasons and the totality of circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a marriage if they are going to fairly determine alimony, maintenance, property division, child custody, etc.   
You can generally get out of a contract if both parties mutually consent to termination, and you certainly don't need to show the state a reason. Why do you think the rules for divorce should be so radically different than the other types of agreement you listed?

But that generally isn't how divorce works.  No-fault divorces can be filed in most states by one spouse even if the other doesn't agree to it. 

How does it benefit the couple or society to force them to stay together against one or both of their wills?

The societal benefit is that marriage encourages people to share resources and plan for the future in a way that benefits multiple outcomes like household income, parenting quality, health insurance, home ownership, etc.

That's the social benefit of marriage. I asked what is the benefit of forcing people to do it against their will?

Well, ideally we should want as many people as possible to be and stay married as to reap the rewards of these social benefits.

Allowing people to get divorced for no reason makes it too easy.  If one spouse can file for divorce without cause, there is less incentive for people to stay together and work things out.  If people find reasons to stay together, then most unhappy marriages will only be unhappy for a short period of time.     

Irreconcilable differences between spouses can be justification for a divorce, but it should generally only be allowed after a good faith effort by both parties to save their marriage has been demonstrated (>6 months.) 

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ExtremeRepublican
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2022, 11:47:48 AM »

Marriage is a lifelong contract between a man, a woman, and God.  So, yes, I oppose all no-fault divorce.  No-fault divorce threatens the sanctity of marriage as much as any of the more hotly debated issues.
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