Some thoughts on recent BS narratives around abortion
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  Some thoughts on recent BS narratives around abortion
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GeneralMacArthur
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« on: June 27, 2022, 10:03:06 PM »

There have been a few recent BS narratives either attempting to blame Dems for loss of abortion rights, or demanding ridiculous things that don't make any sense.  Now I'm on vacation so I don't really have time to get in fights about this but I wanted to cover them succinctly in one single thread.

Democrats could have codified Roe in 2009, but didn't

This is the main talking point I've seen bandied about all over social media.  The implication is that Democrats haven't been willing to truly fight for abortion rights, and thus voting for them is a waste.  There's a super-duper-viral clip of a girl from "Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights", a spinoff of the Revolutionary Communist Party that has been denounced by other abortion rights groups as a scam, but is being elevated by AOC, promoting this talking point, so that's where I think most everyone is copying it from.  But I've just seen it f---ing everywhere.

So let's start with that "supermajority."  As has been pointed out in several places mostly copying this viral Reddit comment, Obama only actually had an effective supermajority for a few days thanks to Robert Byrd's hospitalization, Arlen Specter's party-switch, Ted Kennedy's death and Al Franken's contested election.  When the supermajority was active, they focused on a whole bunch of more pressing issues like the financial crisis, climate change, corruption, civil rights, and of course, health care.

But let's put that aside and say they should have elevated abortion to the top of the priority stack.  Would the supermajority have vote to "codify Roe"?  We actually have a proxy for this: federal funding of abortion in Obamacare.  There were several Dems in both the House and the Senate who refused to support Obamacare unless it prohibited federal funding of abortion.  In the House, Bart Stupak and his crew of pro-life Dems nearly killed the bill over this issue.  In the Senate, Ben Nelson said he would support a filibuster unless the language Stupak demanded was also included.  None of these people would have voted to "codify Roe."

But let's further pretend that Obama could have blackmailed Ben Nelson by threatening to imprison his daughter, or "used the bully pulpit", or "pulled an LBJ", or any of the other things progressives always say Biden should do to Manchin.  Let's pretend Obama had the votes to "codify Roe."  What would that even mean?  As I wrote in my thread from two months ago about this, that isn't a real thing.  It's just some vague term people made up two months ago.  I had never in my life heard the term "codify Roe" prior to May 2022.  What is this magic legislation that wouldn't immediately be overturned by the Supreme Court, which already ruled that abortion should be left to the states?  It doesn't exist.  It's not a real thing.  There wasn't some fantasy bill that everyone was talking about in 2009 that Obama refused to prioritize.  It's an entirely fictional story being primarily promoted by people who have zero memories of 2009.

Open abortion clinics on federal land

This is another stupid idea that's being pushed by a lot of the usual suspects.  This one is being primarily pushed by Warren and it does have all the hallmarks of a stupid Warren idea -- it sounds creative and reasonable until you think about it for like ten seconds.

So the idea is to open up abortion clinics in national forests and wilderness protected by the Fish and Wildlife Service, or wherever.  First of all, there's no way to fund these abortion clinics, because the Hyde Amendment prohibits any federal funding for abortion services.  Warren and her friends are all basically taking advantage of the fact that people either don't know about the Hyde Amendment, don't really understand what it means, or think it's something Biden can unilaterally overturn.

But let's pretend we could fund these wilderness abortion clinics.  How are you going to build them?  An abortion clinic is a building full of medical equipment.  That takes several years to build.  As soon as Republicans take control of Congress, they will eliminate all funding for this little project.  And as soon as a Republican becomes president, the clinics will be demolished.  So you're putting tons of money and effort into something that has a 0% chance of being a long-term solution.  Warren tried to get around this unpleasant reality by saying they would be "abortion tents" as though the problem is the physical construction of the building, not all the sanitation and medical infrastructure required to do a safe abortion.  Hey ladies, want to go get your abortion in a tent in the middle of a forest?

On that same note, who is going to perform these abortions?  Remember these abortion clinic tents are being opened up on federal property in red states.  All the doctors, nurses, technicians, etc. who work at these clinics will have to live in those red states, where they are avoiding a murder charge based on a technicality.  Do you really think the red states are just going to let this happen?  Do you really think they won't make life an absolute living hell for those people?  Do you really think the receptionist at your national swampland abortion tent won't be absolutely buried in lawsuits and hostility from the state?  Who would volunteer for such a position?  It just doesn't work when you think about it for like five seconds.

The most frustrating part of all of this is that Warren, AOC, and others demanding Biden do this are cynically taking advantage of people's lack of understanding as to how government funding works.  There is no funding for your wilderness abortion clinic in the HHS appropriations.  Biden can't just make money appear by fiat.  You have to allocate money for it.  But just like with student loan forgiveness, they want Biden to take full responsibility for this stupid idea, while they just sit on Twitter and attack him for not doing it.  So they're not going to write a bill.  They'll just insist that Biden can totally do this because of "executive privilege" or "emergency declaration" or some other such House of Cards nonsense.

Open abortion clinics on native lands

This is just the same idea, but even stupider.  The federal government has limited-to-no sovereignty over native lands.  And what things they do have sovereignty over are -- get this -- under the purview of the federal government, not the tribal government, and thus subject to federal law, including the recent Supreme Court ruling!  Biden can't just annex native land, use it to open an abortion clinic, and then say "hey that's on native land so it's not subject to American laws."  Like that's just obviously not how anything works.  But people don't think about these things.  They just read an AOC tweet and think it's a real idea.

Expand the court

We've been over this.  Expanding the court is subject to a filibuster.  For that to not be true, you'd have to eliminate the filibuster.  To eliminate the filibuster, you need Manchin and Sinema on board, which they're not.  At this point everyone eagerly starts talking about how Biden should arrest Manchin's daughter and torture her until Manchin submits to his will.  It's just the dumbest nonsense.  Obama couldn't force Joe Lieberman (another guy not voting to codify Roe, btw) to vote for the public option.  You can't just force senators to vote for things they don't want to vote for.  That only works in West Wing.  It doesn't work in the real world.

Besides, expanding the court is a dumb idea in the first place.  Because as soon as Republicans retake control of the Senate, they'll just vote to expand it again with a whole bunch of Federalist Society guys, who will then say that legislation expanding the court is unconstitutional.  I mean seriously folks, we've been over this again and again and again.  But people keep bringing up the same dumb ideas again and again and again.

"Restrain Judicial Review"

I don't think 95% of the people, including AOC, actually know what this means, but AOC tweeted it so now it's a thing everyone's saying.  I think everyone is just imagining Joe Biden pulling an Andrew Jackson and saying "the Supreme Court is wrong, you don't have to listen to them" which is (A) hilariously unconstitutional, and (B) not even a thing in this cases since the Court just said that the states could do something, not that Biden had to do something.  If you want to actually "restrain judicial review" for real, then you need to pass a constitutional amendment dismantling Marbury v. Madison, which obviously isn't a realistic solution.

So what's the real plan?

Well, the plan is to vote.  I know it's cringey and lame and takes a while, and it's not a cool thing to say is your "plan", but this was the Republican plan for fifty years and now we've seen that it works.  You have to vote.  You have to get all your friends to vote.  You have to donate to Democratic candidates.

Alito and Thomas are both in their 70s.  Both of these men would love nothing more than to see the GOP retake control of the president and the senate so they could both retire and get replaced by hand-picked clerks in their late 40s, thus ensuring their legacy continues on the court for another 30-40 years.  On the other hand, if Democrats keep control of at least one of those two bodies for the next decade or so, then Alito/Thomas will have to remain on the bench just like Ginsburg did.  And if Democrats can control both the senate and the presidency when Alito/Thomas die on the bench, then we can replace them with liberal justices who will bring the court back to the 5-4 liberal majority of the Obama era, and repeal all the atrociously unconstitutional decisions the Trump court has been making.

You also need to vote for Democrats at the state and local level.  The repeal of Roe vs. Wade passes responsibility for abortion law back down to the states.  In all the states controlled by Democrats, abortion is currently legal and will remain so.  In all the states controlled by Republicans, abortion is either already illegal or will quickly become so.  If you want abortion to be legal, vote for Democrats for governor, state senator and state representative.

But Democrats currently have power, and they're not doing anything with it!

This is a stupid talking point that I'm seeing everywhere, the most prominent tweet being from Adam McKay (you know, David Sirota's best buddy).  No, Democrats do not currently have power.  The Supreme Court is currently controlled by Republicans, because they held power from 2016-2020 and got to nominate Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Comey-Barrett.  This ruling is being made by the Supreme Court.

But I voted in 2020, they said that was "the most important election of our lifetime" and now we're just losing again!

Imagine if Trump were president right now and Mitch McConnell in control of Congress.  Steven Breyer wouldn't have retired, and we'd be talking about him (at age 83) the same way we talked about Ginsburg -- god forbid he should die and Trump gets a 7-2 majority.  Instead, Biden got to replace Breyer with 51-year-old Ketanji Brown Jackson.  That's a W.  We need more of those.  Voting once isn't enough.  Republicans voted to overturn Roe again and again for 50 years.  You have to do the same.

Donating to Democrats is a waste, donate to organizations instead

The only way to get abortion legal, either in your state or at the national level, is for Democrats to have political power.  For them to get political power, they need to win elections, which is expensive, thus necessitating fundraising and your donations.  If you don't donate to Democrats, they will not be able to run campaigns, and will lose elections to Republicans, who will then implement even more abortion restrictions.  Just look at Texas.
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2022, 10:14:26 PM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.
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GeneralMacArthur
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2022, 10:50:23 PM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

...
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S019
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2022, 11:01:32 PM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

...

Mr. Reactionary has expressed over and over again that he wishes to turn the country into a backwards theocracy. Anything that opposes that mindset is Democratic propaganda, so that he and his ilk can marginalize common sense policy to the 40-45% of people on the political spectrum who may be sympathetic to their views overall, but not their radical far right agenda. This has been the playbook of the right wing for decades, to marginalize the other side, so that even if you don't like what the right is doing, they're seen as the "lesser of two evil."
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GeneralMacArthur
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2022, 11:02:26 PM »

Anyone want to respond to the actual post tho
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2022, 11:18:50 PM »

Obama told PP in 2007 that he would push for the Freedom of Choice Act if elected.     Whether he might have had the votes to pass it is hard to say; it would have been close.
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Damocles
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2022, 11:22:55 PM »

Anyone want to respond to the actual post tho
Sounds like there needs to be some PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2022, 11:40:46 PM »
« Edited: June 27, 2022, 11:45:34 PM by Mr.Barkari Sellers »

The D's could of Done alot in 2oo9 we had Lieberman, Landrieu, Byrd and Pryor in the Senate they made the Filibuster compromise in 2005 and agreed not to block Roberts and Alito when Bush W was threatening will Bill Frist using the Nuke option. To our surprise Roberts is a Anthony Kennedy moderate but Alito became another GORSUCH, and Thomas whom dissented in Planned Parenthood, Roberts, Kavanaugh were in the 6/3 majority along with Ginsberg

Thats why Kavanaugh said that Contraceptive are safe and so did Alito and gay marriage and abortion aren't safe, they are married to post menapause women and Condemns don't just protect from pregnancy but in post menapause we need them for protection against AIDS

So, that's why Obama didn't nuke the Filibuster and didn't codify Roe.

Thomas said Griswold will be revisited but he was in the Minority in Planned Parenthood

Byrd, Landrieu, Pryor and Lieberman we're against nuking the Filibuster or anything that had to do with codifying Roe, but Byrd died and Manchin took his seat and this the judiciary Filibuster was gone in 2013
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Pericles
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2022, 01:27:01 AM »

The Supreme Court just said there wasn't a constitutional right to abortion. Logically, a federal bill either banning abortion nationwide or legalising it should be perfectly legal. It's just a problem of getting the votes in Congress, if there were 52 Democratic Senators the situation may be different. Obama did promise it but understandably passing legislation that does not actually improve anything for anyone but just deals with something that could possibly maybe be a problem years down the line would not be a busy President's priority.
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2022, 02:15:02 AM »

The Supreme Court just said there wasn't a constitutional right to abortion. Logically, a federal bill either banning abortion nationwide or legalising it should be perfectly legal. It's just a problem of getting the votes in Congress, if there were 52 Democratic Senators the situation may be different. Obama did promise it but understandably passing legislation that does not actually improve anything for anyone but just deals with something that could possibly maybe be a problem years down the line would not be a busy President's priority.
no, the issue is that the us counstition explicity reserves powers not enumuereated by the constituion to the states which could be used to strike down any federal bill.

I think it would be wise to recognize the battle has to be fought there and not at the federal goverment(at least until the supreme court majority changes).
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BlueSwan
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2022, 06:54:32 AM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.
I f***ing wish it was. GeneralMacArthur has a much better idea of what it takes to win elections than the Democratic party does.

He's totally right that the ONLY solution is to vote, vote and vote for pro-choice politicians who can win. This is not a very sexy or edgy idea and it is no quickfix. But basically, the only thing standing in our way of real progress - not only on this issue, but on EVERY issue - is leftists who won't "demean" themselves to vote for pragmatic democrats. If young progressives voted at the same rate as old evangelical conservatives and like them managed to keep their eyes on the prize, democrats would win landslide victories. That is just a fact.
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GeneralMacArthur
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2022, 07:41:51 AM »

The Supreme Court just said there wasn't a constitutional right to abortion. Logically, a federal bill either banning abortion nationwide or legalising it should be perfectly legal. It's just a problem of getting the votes in Congress, if there were 52 Democratic Senators the situation may be different. Obama did promise it but understandably passing legislation that does not actually improve anything for anyone but just deals with something that could possibly maybe be a problem years down the line would not be a busy President's priority.
no, the issue is that the us counstition explicity reserves powers not enumuereated by the constituion to the states which could be used to strike down any federal bill.

I think it would be wise to recognize the battle has to be fought there and not at the federal goverment(at least until the supreme court majority changes).

People will point to the National Minimum Drinking Age Act for this, but they only got away with that because they argued that cutting funds for highway improvement was directly related to underage drinking because the purpose of the act was to prevent drunk driving.  The constitutionality of the act was determined in the 7-2 case South Dakota v. Dole and the determination of its constitutionality was pretty specific to that particular law.  It's very unlikely that the same court would approve any sort of federal coercive act to legalize abortion, and today's court would definitely declare such an act unconstitutional.  IMO South Dakota v. Dole is an extremely weak precedent to begin with, Rehnquist basically invented a five-step rubric for when the tenth amendment doesn't count out of thin air because he wanted to give the Reagan Administration the W.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2022, 10:31:08 AM »

I would argue that Federal legislation to "codify Roe" would be legal under the Enforcement Clause of the 14th Amendment. 
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GP270watch
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2022, 10:34:54 AM »
« Edited: June 28, 2022, 10:47:23 AM by GP270watch »

 Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals. Warren is actually proposing ideas so that abortion is not illegal which does a tremendous current harm to women now. Abortion is a comprehensive part of women's healthcare, according to every mainstream medical organization. Waiting to vote in November is a defeatist and stupid message. Clarence Thomas is married to an insurrectionist. The GOP is playing a different game and the Democrats are still fighting with Queensberry rules.

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darklordoftech
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2022, 10:44:52 AM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.
I f***ing wish it was. GeneralMacArthur has a much better idea of what it takes to win elections than the Democratic party does.

He's totally right that the ONLY solution is to vote, vote and vote for pro-choice politicians who can win.
Henry Cuellar isn’t pro-choice. If only “vote pro-choice” applied to his primary.
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2022, 10:46:01 AM »

Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals.

What in the world? If GMac were in charge of the party, it would be far more effective than it is now.
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GP270watch
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2022, 10:50:11 AM »

Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals.

What in the world? If GMac were in charge of the party, it would be far more effective than it is now.

 No it wouldn't he's a Ron Paul libertarian dude who thinks "homeless people just want to be homeless". He is really a poor representation of any good Democrat that I've actually met that fights for equality, fairness, socialized medicine, a progressive tax system, and getting the money out of politics. The idea that a G-Mac style Democrat would be better than Warren is laughable.

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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2022, 10:52:49 AM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

Yeah, he's a Democrat who made a post defending Democrats. How is this supposed to be an 'own' on GenMacArthur?
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GeneralMacArthur
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2022, 11:33:54 AM »

Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals. Warren is actually proposing ideas so that abortion is not illegal which does a tremendous current harm to women now. Abortion is a comprehensive part of women's healthcare, according to every mainstream medical organization. Waiting to vote in November is a defeatist and stupid message. Clarence Thomas is married to an insurrectionist. The GOP is playing a different game and the Democrats are still fighting with Queensberry rules.



Love to write a comprehensive post explaining several detailed reasons why Warren's ideas won't work, only for Atlas's #1 Warren stan to swoop in with "Warren is actually proposing ideas" as though that's a counterpoint to my post.  Completely ignoring what I actually wrote about those ideas.  I hate this place.
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DaleCooper
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2022, 11:43:52 AM »

Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals. Warren is actually proposing ideas so that abortion is not illegal which does a tremendous current harm to women now. Abortion is a comprehensive part of women's healthcare, according to every mainstream medical organization. Waiting to vote in November is a defeatist and stupid message. Clarence Thomas is married to an insurrectionist. The GOP is playing a different game and the Democrats are still fighting with Queensberry rules.


You've got it backwards. People like Senator Warren are why the Democratic Party is struggling as much as it is, and why it is practically extinct in something like 20 states. The left's willingness to pander to a base completely unrepresentative of the regional coalition necessary to take and maintain power in this country and make false promise after false promise has absolutely destroyed the Democrats' reputation in a good half of the country for the foreseeable future. And then of course the left's willingness to write those alienated people off rather than win them back has resulted in them nearly "triaging" themselves out of a path to 50 Senate seats in a few years.
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fhtagn
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2022, 11:56:47 AM »

This message has been paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

...

Mr. Reactionary has expressed over and over again that he wishes to turn the country into a backwards theocracy. Anything that opposes that mindset is Democratic propaganda, so that he and his ilk can marginalize common sense policy to the 40-45% of people on the political spectrum who may be sympathetic to their views overall, but not their radical far right agenda. This has been the playbook of the right wing for decades, to marginalize the other side, so that even if you don't like what the right is doing, they're seen as the "lesser of two evil."

Do you believe the US was a backwards theocracy in 1972?
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2022, 12:00:03 PM »

Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals.

What in the world? If GMac were in charge of the party, it would be far more effective than it is now.

 No it wouldn't he's a Ron Paul libertarian dude who thinks "homeless people just want to be homeless". He is really a poor representation of any good Democrat that I've actually met that fights for equality, fairness, socialized medicine, a progressive tax system, and getting the money out of politics. The idea that a G-Mac style Democrat would be better than Warren is laughable.

I like Warren fine, but GMac is far better at messaging and strategy than she is. The DCCC should hire GMac full time.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2022, 12:03:27 PM »
« Edited: June 28, 2022, 12:07:19 PM by darklordoftech »

Crappy Democrats like G-Mac are why we have failed on so many policy goals.

What in the world? If GMac were in charge of the party, it would be far more effective than it is now.
If GMac were in charge of the Democratic Party, Democrats would constantly attack Bernie Sanders. That would be bad a idea for the same reason Trump continuing to attack “Lying Ted” after the 2016 primaries would have hurt him.
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Devout Centrist
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2022, 12:04:17 PM »

You know, you spend way more of your time and words attacking Democrats than attacking Republicans
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2022, 12:05:55 PM »

You know, you spend way more of your time and words attacking Democrats than attacking Republicans
Good. Because many Democrats do that. Good thing at least the establishment flank of it has some defenders online.
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