Do the Chinese people deserve some blame with the current situation in China?

[TheReckoning]

China has a lot of… problems at the moment, especially with things such as human rights, corruption, and despotism. In your opinion, does the populace of the People’s Republic of China have some blame in all this?

[PSOL]

China’s problems are imposed top-down, like all societies really, and especially so since the fall of the Gang of Four.

[It’s so Joever]

Yes, the Chinese people are complicit in their government and many know how flawed it is but don’t raise issue because of economic growth. Basically like the US tbh.

[Ferguson97]

No, because China is not a democracy.

[PSOL]

The thing is that modern China is at its best point in comparative quality of life since the Ming dynasty. Chinese literature and cultural weight is expanding like never before, most people have ok access to modern amenities and are working with the chance to get beyond what their parents did—albeit with diminishing returns since the late 2000s—and China is actually a pretty free and open society legal and enforcement wise outside of political rights. Why change something that is not “that” bad compared to the alternatives—balkanization, insane fascists and worse privatizers coming into power, subservience into another century of humiliation—this is what the opposition most interact with want. In a lot of ways it is like the United States, in that most people don’t see things being that bad to change compared to the effects of doing so or even alternatives—if they care that is, which for the menial workers who are exhausted and drugged up they can’t even begin to be involved in politics.

The current Chinese system is filled with enough contradictions that collapse is certain, but most people either don’t have the opportunity to see it for all that it is, don’t want to change it as it benefits them, or don’t care enough to risk it. Its collapse is thus not eminent and needs an external embarrassment to really end things, and given the complete success of China’s pandemic response, they got a lot of good political capital to dole around.

[Samof94]

The thing is that modern China is at its best point in comparative quality of life since the Ming dynasty. Chinese literature and cultural weight is expanding like never before, most people have ok access to modern amenities and are working with the chance to get beyond what their parents did—albeit with diminishing returns since the late 2000s—and China is actually a pretty free and open society legal and enforcement wise outside of political rights. Why change something that is not “that” bad compared to the alternatives—balkanization, insane fascists and worse privatizers coming into power, subservience into another century of humiliation—this is what the opposition most interact with want. In a lot of ways it is like the United States, in that most people don’t see things being that bad to change compared to the effects of doing so or even alternatives—if they care that is, which for the menial workers who are exhausted and drugged up they can’t even begin to be involved in politics.

The current Chinese system is filled with enough contradictions that collapse is certain, but most people either don’t have the opportunity to see it for all that it is, don’t want to change it as it benefits them, or don’t care enough to risk it. Its collapse is thus not eminent and needs an external embarrassment to really end things, and given the complete success of China’s pandemic response, they got a lot of good political capital to dole around.

For now. Their longer term future is awful economically when you think about it no matter who is in charge. Some nationalist strongman who has no ties to the CCP or a junta would probably be unable to fix their problems either.

[dead0man]

Yes of course.

[PSOL]

Well the Chinese are trying to mitigate the overproduction and inability for the Chinese consumer to buy more through the export scheme known as the Belt & Road, hoping to develop the infrastructure to get their goods across. They know that without serious investment into China, that in the post-communist reality the elite are unwilling to do, their goose is cooked.

That is doomed to fail, as most players already signed up are too underdeveloped and unwilling to invest in their own people besides the bare minimum to keep hold onto power, but it is something most other nations are unable or unwilling to do. Plus meddling and derailment by NATO will expound things and the Chinese working class is just not up for it in ability or willingness to let the plan succeed.

[VBM]

No, because China is not a democracy.

If enough of China’s population was willing, they could make it a democracy

[AtorBoltox]

The thing is that modern China is at its best point in comparative quality of life since the Ming dynasty. Chinese literature and cultural weight is expanding like never before, most people have ok access to modern amenities and are working with the chance to get beyond what their parents did—albeit with diminishing returns since the late 2000s—and China is actually a pretty free and open society legal and enforcement wise outside of political rights. Why change something that is not “that” bad compared to the alternatives—balkanization, insane fascists and worse privatizers coming into power, subservience into another century of humiliation—this is what the opposition most interact with want. In a lot of ways it is like the United States, in that most people don’t see things being that bad to change compared to the effects of doing so or even alternatives—if they care that is, which for the menial workers who are exhausted and drugged up they can’t even begin to be involved in politics.

The current Chinese system is filled with enough contradictions that collapse is certain, but most people either don’t have the opportunity to see it for all that it is, don’t want to change it as it benefits them, or don’t care enough to risk it. Its collapse is thus not eminent and needs an external embarrassment to really end things, and given the complete success of China’s pandemic response, they got a lot of good political capital to dole around.

[Samof94]

No, because China is not a democracy.

If enough of China’s population was willing, they could make it a democracy

Their government is a giant North Korea, it wouldn’t get very far.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Well...

Do the red avatars here deserve blame for the state the USA is in today and for the degradation of established democratic and human rights ideals the USA used to stood for?

Given the majority votes yes here, i would say yes too on that question.

If one considers that offensive, than maybe your yes vote was offensive to some others.

[PSOL]

No, because China is not a democracy.

If enough of China’s population was willing, they could make it a democracy

Their government is a giant North Korea, it wouldn’t get very far.

No, no they are not. In no way could you compare the two states at all throughout their history given context. Especially not now.

China’s army and police is mostly for show and can barely extend across the entire country, they can barely operate currently in one front if they get to that point. The emergence of an angsty middle class born out of budget cuts and increased stratification is the main threat to china’s existence if some oligarch yahoo takes the reins. The emergence of an independent trade union movement connected to their New Left, like the Utopia-dwelling Jasic organizers, indicates they are just as vulnerable to collapse as we are—just with less money and security to show for it.

[Person Man]

Their culture has certain limitations that the rest of the world must bare.

[支持核绿派 (Greens4Nuclear)]

Why is this thread not in Int’l General Discussion

[Samof94]

No, because China is not a democracy.

If enough of China’s population was willing, they could make it a democracy

Their government is a giant North Korea, it wouldn’t get very far.

No, no they are not. In no way could you compare the two states at all throughout their history given context. Especially not now.

China’s army and police is mostly for show and can barely extend across the entire country, they can barely operate currently in one front if they get to that point. The emergence of an angsty middle class born out of budget cuts and increased stratification is the main threat to china’s existence if some oligarch yahoo takes the reins. The emergence of an independent trade union movement connected to their New Left, like the Utopia-dwelling Jasic organizers, indicates they are just as vulnerable to collapse as we are—just with less money and security to show for it.

I didn’t mean literally but more that you couldn’t get democracy even if you tried. Of course, some strongman who called it something else and rejected Mao’s legacy could easily happen.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Well...

Do the red avatars here deserve blame for the state the USA is in today and for the degradation of established democratic and human rights ideals the USA used to stood for?

Given the majority votes yes here, i would say yes too on that question.

If one considers that offensive, than maybe your yes vote was offensive to some others.

Because the US and China are not the same (the gap is not particularly large, but whatever). When the US imposes a social credit system and sends millions of citizens to a glorified concentration camp we can talk.

[PSOL]

No, because China is not a democracy.

If enough of China’s population was willing, they could make it a democracy

Their government is a giant North Korea, it wouldn’t get very far.

No, no they are not. In no way could you compare the two states at all throughout their history given context. Especially not now.

China’s army and police is mostly for show and can barely extend across the entire country, they can barely operate currently in one front if they get to that point. The emergence of an angsty middle class born out of budget cuts and increased stratification is the main threat to china’s existence if some oligarch yahoo takes the reins. The emergence of an independent trade union movement connected to their New Left, like the Utopia-dwelling Jasic organizers, indicates they are just as vulnerable to collapse as we are—just with less money and security to show for it.

I didn’t mean literally but more that you couldn’t get democracy even if you tried. Of course, some strongman who called it something else and rejected Mao’s legacy could easily happen.

Given the sizes of the opposition blocs, a ceasefire and eventual democratic regime could happen after some fighting.

Well...

Do the red avatars here deserve blame for the state the USA is in today and for the degradation of established democratic and human rights ideals the USA used to stood for?

Given the majority votes yes here, i would say yes too on that question.

If one considers that offensive, than maybe your yes vote was offensive to some others.

Because the US and China are not the same (the gap is not particularly large, but whatever). When the US imposes a social credit system and sends millions of citizens to a glorified concentration camp we can talk.

Indeed they are not the same, China in the past 40 years has had slower diminishing returns on living standards while growing at a much faster rate. Outside of nanny statism, which is more targeted on the middle class, this is what most Chinese people in tune to things see if they are able to see it at all.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

There aren't too many people who fought against the National Revolutionary Army still alive today, so no.

[It’s so Joever]

Well...

Do the red avatars here deserve blame for the state the USA is in today and for the degradation of established democratic and human rights ideals the USA used to stood for?

Given the majority votes yes here, i would say yes too on that question.

If one considers that offensive, than maybe your yes vote was offensive to some others.

Yes.

[Biden his time]

Nobody anywhere deserves blame for what their government's like
Governments universally attract evil people

[Samof94]

There aren't too many people who fought against the National Revolutionary Army still alive today, so no.

True. Even back then, people only listened to Mao partially because of what Japan did there.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

There aren't too many people who fought against the National Revolutionary Army still alive today, so no.

True. Even back then, people only listened to Mao partially because of what Japan did there.

As bad as Mao got with the cruelty, Japan's plans for the country would have ended up worse and did end up worse. Remarkable really.

[Samof94]

There aren't too many people who fought against the National Revolutionary Army still alive today, so no.

True. Even back then, people only listened to Mao partially because of what Japan did there.

As bad as Mao got with the cruelty, Japan's plans for the country would have ended up worse and did end up worse. Remarkable really.

Indeed, Japan seemed to run by people who were obsessed with torturing people in the most brutal way possible. Unit 731 was run by a sociopath.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Mao was also better than nationalist Japan at the time, remember the deliberate flooding and killing of at least 1 million people? It's like using a nuclear bomb on your own people.

Mao was bad, the others were just worse.

Taiwan > Modern China tho but Taiwan is only good because it is Taiwan and not alt-modern Nationalist China which likely would've gone authoritarian as well.

Taiwan should strive to become independent from China and renounce claims on mainland China (in exchange for vice versa).