How rigorous should a Christian Minister's seminary education be ?

[jojoju1998]

In a world that's more secularized, where people are more " educated ", relying on the bible to teach, and preach isn't enough anymore, you have to have rigor in philosophy, science, liberal arts overall. And be able to defend whatever you believe to anyone who asks.

Now I know the mainline protestants typically require a masters degree; as as well as the Orthodox, but Christianity in America is culturally dominated by two groups, the evangelical protestants and the catholics.

From my point of view; it seems as if the evangelical protestants and their schools seem to lack a bit in their theological training. I don't know why though; and perhaps because I'm biased, but I looked up a random catholic seminary in Oregon, and they have classes in ecumenism, philosophy, moral theology, Systematic theology in addition to the bible. And they do it all in a accreditated masters of divinity program.

I'm just saying maybe it's good to have some intellectualism in Christianity again in addition to the pastoral.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No. One of my church's doesn't even have a post-grad degree and her pre-pastoral work experience was being a manager at a women's clothing store. She's still great. We've had others in the past without one too. It'd be an unfair requirement that would deprive us of excellent people.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Some sort of defined credentials for ministry are probably necessary but there's not much about a seminary education in particular that provides anything truly essential that one couldn't get from a combination of some sort of humanities/social sciences background, personal piety and moral rectitude, and a Hard Lessons from Life degree from the School of Experience (which, as Flannery O'Connor tells us, is the easiest kind of degree to get and stays learned the longest). I'm speaking as someone who has a formal theological education myself. Universities didn't exist for half of Christian history, at least some of the Twelve Apostles were illiterate, and while times have changed enormously, they haven't changed THAT much in terms of what basic kinds of people do and don't make good religous leaders.

[DaleCooper]

They should be judged based on their words and actions, not based on credentials granted to them by man's institutions.

[Kleine Scheiße]

an M.T.S. or other certification should be preferred but any kind of humanities and religious education can be sufficient preparation

[LabourJersey]

I think it's necessary, and definitely keep that requirement for the denominations that already require it.

But intellect and book smarts aren't what make great priests or pastors, honestly. Their main job, when it comes down to it, is to spread the Gospel. Nowadays that means you need to convince people that they should listen, and once they start convince them why it is Right and Good.

That requires skills that you can't easily teach, and aren't always taught in seminaries or graduate programs.

[John Dule]

Yes, just like how all baristas are required to have gender studies degrees.

[jojoju1998]

I think it's necessary, and definitely keep that requirement for the denominations that already require it.

But intellect and book smarts aren't what make great priests or pastors, honestly. Their main job, when it comes down to it, is to spread the Gospel. Nowadays that means you need to convince people that they should listen, and once they start convince them why it is Right and Good.

That requires skills that you can't easily teach, and aren't always taught in seminaries or graduate programs.

A good seminary however, should have pastoral, spirtual, and intellectual formation as well.

A good balance of three.

Many christian seminaries however lack in intellectual formation, and I don't know if that's a good thing.

[LabourJersey]

I think it's necessary, and definitely keep that requirement for the denominations that already require it.

But intellect and book smarts aren't what make great priests or pastors, honestly. Their main job, when it comes down to it, is to spread the Gospel. Nowadays that means you need to convince people that they should listen, and once they start convince them why it is Right and Good.

That requires skills that you can't easily teach, and aren't always taught in seminaries or graduate programs.

A good seminary however, should have pastoral, spiritual, and intellectual formation as well.

A good balance of three.

Many Christian seminaries however lack in intellectual formation, and I don't know if that's a good thing.

You're definitely true.

My experiences with seminaries is through the Episcopal Church, which are probably a lot more intellectually focused than seminaries in other denominations. So my opinion is skewed to that lenses

[jojoju1998]

I think it's necessary, and definitely keep that requirement for the denominations that already require it.

But intellect and book smarts aren't what make great priests or pastors, honestly. Their main job, when it comes down to it, is to spread the Gospel. Nowadays that means you need to convince people that they should listen, and once they start convince them why it is Right and Good.

That requires skills that you can't easily teach, and aren't always taught in seminaries or graduate programs.

A good seminary however, should have pastoral, spiritual, and intellectual formation as well.

A good balance of three.

Many Christian seminaries however lack in intellectual formation, and I don't know if that's a good thing.

You're definitely true.

My experiences with seminaries is through the Episcopal Church, which are probably a lot more intellectually focused than seminaries in other denominations. So my opinion is skewed to that lenses

In the catholic system; it takes around 7-8 years to become a priest.


Typically :at least two years of philosophy studies ( because in the catholic world, philosophy and theology are connected ), and then 5 years for graduate studies in theology, including a pastoral year.

Theology studies include : Moral theology, Liturgy, Trinity, Christ,

[satsuma]

Seems like a lot of this depends on your experience. My mom goes to a community church where there are not formally-educated pastors. The lack of any credentialed expertise barrier between who is preaching and who is listening makes an interesting sort of equality. For a small church without denominational affiliation where most of them probably went to college, it kind of works.

But maybe something suffers for it. In particular, these evangelical sorts are very focused on the actual text of the Bible, and a working knowledge of biblical languages can give preachers a chance to tell you something you don't know. And trust me, I like to hear intellectual people give their perspectives on things, but I tend to think theology is the study of something that's not substantial and real, and haven't heard anything from those who are highly educated on it that actually convinces me otherwise.

[jojoju1998]

Seems like a lot of this depends on your experience. My mom goes to a community church where there are not formally-educated pastors. The lack of any credentialed expertise barrier between who is preaching and who is listening makes an interesting sort of equality. For a small church without denominational affiliation where most of them probably went to college, it kind of works.

But maybe something suffers for it. In particular, these evangelical sorts are very focused on the actual text of the Bible, and a working knowledge of biblical languages can give preachers a chance to tell you something you don't know. And trust me, I like to hear intellectual people give their perspectives on things, but I tend to think theology is the study of something that's not substantial and real, and haven't heard anything from those who are highly educated on it that actually convinces me otherwise.

The Bible needs the theology however.

It was the great christian theologians like Augustine, the early church fathers who helped develop christian teaching on Original Sin, Grace.

Where did the Trinity come from ? Who was God ?

Martin Luther kickstarted the Protestant Reformation in part because he was so concerned at the state of educated clergy in the Catholic Church.

[RI]

Listening to Bishop Barron's sermons shows how big a difference high-quality formal theological training makes compared to your average sermon.

[Santander]

Not necessarily an MDiv, but they should have an equivalent level of formal training.

[Make America Grumpy Again]

I think as long as one has and can demonstrate an advance knowledge and understanding of the Bible they should be fine. A Masters degree would help but it shouldn't be a requirement.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

I mean it depends on what level they are at. My synagogue has several hundred member families. Therefore, it makes sense they'd have post-grad education (not to mention they are Jewish, so that's already a prerequisite for your parents not being disappointed in you).

But if you are a rural pastor I don't see the point. Besides, it's up to the congregation.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Reading a book about the growth of global Pentecostalism and this paragraph reminded me of this thread:

Compatriotism, however, is not the only competitive advantage possessed by professional Pentecostal sales representatives. That crente pastors normally belong to the same socioeconomic class as those they seek to convert also makes for easier sale of Pentecostal products. Not only does nationality distance the majority of Catholic clergy from prospective practitioners, but so do their educational levels. Years of seminary training place priests among the educational elite of Latin America. Even if they came from humble origins, they have acquired considerable sacred and secular knowledge through higher education and no longer speak the language of the unlettered pueblo. Hence, the gap between the highly educated foreign priest and the potential parishioner with no more than an elementary school education makes for a harder sell of the Catholic product.
(...)
The final element of Pentecostal polity that gives this branch of ecstatic Protestantism a competitive edge over its rivals is its preference for charisma over theological training for its professional sales representatives or pastors. While larger and older denominations, particularly the Assemblies of God, have institutionalized to the point that its salaried pastors are required to have several years of seminary training, Pentecostalism, as a popular religion, has historically emphasized spiritual gifts over theological education. That a male believer with not more than an elementary school education but a healthy dose of charisma can rise through the pastoral ranks of most denominations opens the ministry up to tens of thousands of impoverished male believers who would never qualify for the rigorous educational requirements of the Catholic priesthood or mainline Protestant ministry. The result has been a proliferation of Pentecostal pastors, who in Brazil, the largest Catholic nation on earth, now outnumber priests by two to one.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I think it's necessary, and definitely keep that requirement for the denominations that already require it.

But intellect and book smarts aren't what make great priests or pastors, honestly. Their main job, when it comes down to it, is to spread the Gospel. Nowadays that means you need to convince people that they should listen, and once they start convince them why it is Right and Good.

That requires skills that you can't easily teach, and aren't always taught in seminaries or graduate programs.

A good seminary however, should have pastoral, spirtual, and intellectual formation as well.

A good balance of three.

Many christian seminaries however lack in intellectual formation, and I don't know if that's a good thing.

     I agree with this, but I would honestly say that intellectual formation is the least important of those three elements. A parish priest needs a strong background in pastoral care to help parishoners with the issues they face in their lives and a strong spiritual formation to communicate the spiritual life to the faithful. Intellectual development definitely matters, but ultimately is the factor that will have the least benefit for the faithful.

[jojoju1998]

Listening to Bishop Barron's sermons shows how big a difference high-quality formal theological training makes compared to your average sermon.

Bishop Barron has a Masters in Philosophy and a Doctorate in Theology.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I was a pastor without having taken a single college class. (Pentecostal)

[Mr. Smith]

No.

Credentials for something like this are a terrible idea, but then, I s'pose it's the only safeguard if you're going to do something as ridiculous as decentralization...which defeats the entire purpose of the church given that Christ was the center, which tacked to his apostles/disciples.

[Xeuma]

Some sort of defined credentials for ministry are probably necessary but there's not much about a seminary education in particular that provides anything truly essential that one couldn't get from a combination of some sort of humanities/social sciences background, personal piety and moral rectitude, and a Hard Lessons from Life degree from the School of Experience (which, as Flannery O'Connor tells us, is the easiest kind of degree to get and stays learned the longest). I'm speaking as someone who has a formal theological education myself. Universities didn't exist for half of Christian history, at least some of the Twelve Apostles were illiterate, and while times have changed enormously, they haven't changed THAT much in terms of what basic kinds of people do and don't make good religous leaders.

At least for Catholicism, the academic level of seminaries has been in the gutter for some time now too. The real important thing happening is the pastoral experience and formation.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I accept that the Episcopal Church requires ordination candidates to have an M.Div. I'm not totally upset about it because I believe that having one as well as a background in psychology would better help me to counsel to parishioners. The church is on decline, but that's part of why I want to contribute and do my part to steer the church more towards orthodoxy.

Educated pastors are not inherently better or worse than uneducated pastors. There's plenty of good and bad ones in both groups.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Some sort of defined credentials for ministry are probably necessary but there's not much about a seminary education in particular that provides anything truly essential that one couldn't get from a combination of some sort of humanities/social sciences background, personal piety and moral rectitude, and a Hard Lessons from Life degree from the School of Experience (which, as Flannery O'Connor tells us, is the easiest kind of degree to get and stays learned the longest). I'm speaking as someone who has a formal theological education myself. Universities didn't exist for half of Christian history, at least some of the Twelve Apostles were illiterate, and while times have changed enormously, they haven't changed THAT much in terms of what basic kinds of people do and don't make good religous leaders.

At least for Catholicism, the academic level of seminaries has been in the gutter for some time now too. The real important thing happening is the pastoral experience and formation.

Or not happening, in some cases. But point taken.

[ReaganLimbaugh]

No