2022 FIFA World Cup - Qatar, November 21-December 18

[Alcibiades]

If I was a gambler, I really would have a cheeky £10 on England not qualifying from the group stage. I know it is "only" The Nations League, but that defeat at home to Hungary (who were excellent, by the way, and fully deserved to win) was the worst I have seen us as a team since THAT game against Iceland in 2016.

It's long been a mystery as to why England routinely underperforms in World Cup when, on paper, they have one of the best squads perennially. A part of it, of course, is that England is terrible in penalty shootouts, a game deciding method which I think is an abomination, even though many fans love the masochism of watching it.

Seeing that La Liga teams tend to beat Premier League in Champions League, I may be overestimating the strength of English roster though.

England is very good at blowing their own trumpets. Look back at some of those squads from the past decade in retrospect - just terrible. This squad is better than those, but many of the players will be looked at rather poorly in 10 years' time. Tactical ineptitude from a manager who got the job because the last guy was an open sleazebag doesn't help.

I still remember the hype before the 2010 World Cup. Most of the media predicting they’d reach the semi-finals at worst with their ‘golden generation’. Hilarious stuff. Of course it happens before every tournament, but that was probably the most comical in terms of the gulf between expectations and reality.

[Alcibiades]

If you see the performance of all national teams in the World Cup, from 1930 to 2018, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_team_appearances_in_the_FIFA_World_Cup#Overall_team_records, you can see that the results are closely related to income, population, and popularity of the soccer in the country. Brazil is a medium income country but compensates it by a very big population and very high popularity of soccer. Argentina and Uruguay overperform. The other superpowers in the men's soccer World Cup are upper income, medium or high population countries, in which soccer is popular: Germany, Italy, France, England, Spain, Netherlands.

Although USA, Japan, South Korea and Australia are rich countries and their populations are big, I don't believe that one day they will become super powers in the men's soccer, because soccer is not the most popular sport in these countries, and it matters a lot. The most skilled boys for sports in a country usually become professional athletes in the most popular sports of the country.

Although there is a little bit more to it. As noted in another thread, it is worth remarking on the fact that we are now 20 years since the last time a non-European won the tournament, and it is still more likely that not that this will continue on this time round.

Reason being that as the sport has globalised, resources have paradoxically been more and more concentrated around Europe - and in particular the big leagues. That is money and talent, but also things like youth development or tactical innovation have all been centred more and more around the major European - providing a huge advantage to the big European national teams whose players are brought up in this environment, as the rest of the world is left further and further out in the periphery. Hence Argentina and Brazil, once the uncontested big boys of global football, find it increasingly difficult to develop teams capable of winning the world cup.

Although it's not exactly a secret that the sport's soul has been enormously damaged over the last few decades.

Tbh, as far as the decline in success of the South Americans at recent World Cups is concerned, I’m not sure it’s that indicative of a broader trend, or at least the one you describe. Ultimately, Brazil and Argentina’s squads are still chock-full of some of the very best players in the world; as you say, the difference is that almost all of these now play in Europe, yes, but I’m unconvinced why this should necessarily make them less competitive - after all, these guys all play for the same top clubs as their European competitors. I really don’t see any evidence of a decline in the quality of South American players as a result of an increasing youth resources gap, and they remain the hottest properties on the transfer market for the big European sides.

I would also very much dispute your suggestion that Argentina and Brazil were “once the uncontested big boys of global football” - Germany, and probably Italy, at the very least have certainly always been as big or bigger than Argentina, and, since their legendary 1958-1970 spell, Brazil have never truly dominated.

Yes, there have certainly been issues with poor management and team selection etc. for South American teams over the past two decades, but ultimately, considering that they only come along every four years, World Cups are a pretty small sample size, and, for that and the above reasons, I would caution against being too confident as to the decline of the South American nations.

[Alcibiades]

Because England is bad - the tactics are bad and the players are bad. How is Harry Maguire still in the squad?

Southgate increasingly reminds me of late-stage Jogi Löw (though really this is grossly unfair to Löw, who was a far better manager, and managed Germany for much longer than Southgate has England), in that he is basing his squad selection on old favourites rather than form. The most laughable example of this in the squad that has just been picked for the upcoming Nations League fixtures is picking Harry Maguire and Conor Coady over Ben White.

[Alcibiades]

Portugal and Ghana were both lucky to win. But that's tournament football - sometimes it's about sh**tting your way through the tournament, which Portugal are experts at.

Although they haven’t had a good World Cup run since 2006, and I’m not sure I’d back them to change that this year.

[Alcibiades]

Argentina vs Portugal final? Is this what Allah has written?

The scripted element will somewhat be taken out of it by the fact that Ronaldo would presumably (rightly) start on the bench, though.

[Alcibiades]

Argentina vs Portugal final? Is this what Allah has written?

The scripted element will somewhat be taken out of it by the fact that Ronaldo would presumably (rightly) start on the bench, though.

He can still celebrate in full kit like John Terry.

Maybe another coaching masterclass from the sidelines like in the 2016 Euros final.

[Alcibiades]

Will Southgate have the decency to resign? Or does he stay on, knowing he's unemployable at a decent level and his mates in the FA and media will not criticize him?

More poor game management from him at the crucial moments. Not sure what he was thinking of taking off Saka, who had easily been their best player. Once again, England eliminated by the first strong opposition they faced in the tournament.

[Alcibiades]

This is really a lesser of two evils type of finals matchup

Rooting for France at the end of the day because Messi is a fraud and doesn't deserve a cup

You do realise how ridiculous you sound? Like one of those low-IQ Ronaldo cultist Twitter teenagers. I honestly feel sad for any football ‘fan’ who is too immature to appreciate how lucky they are in getting to witness one of the greatest ever to play the beautiful game.

[Alcibiades]

Wow wow wow, probably the greatest sporting event I have ever witnessed - and one of the most emotionally exhausting! So happy for Messi to finally get his hands on the World Cup. It’s been an absolute privilege watching him over the years and for it to end like this … well, it always had to be, didn’t it?

[Alcibiades]

The first half of normal time was quite high-quality, thanks to Argentina playing some really good stuff. Minutes 45-80 were indeed pretty dull, but after that of course all hell broke loose - in particular, it was refreshing to see such an action-packed extra time, when it tends to be understandably very cagey and conservative in most major finals.