Extremist cult of blackmailing scammers in charge of Mecca abruptly limits access to Hajj
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Author Topic: Extremist cult of blackmailing scammers in charge of Mecca abruptly limits access to Hajj  (Read 1090 times)
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« on: June 10, 2022, 10:40:29 AM »
« edited: June 10, 2022, 10:49:18 AM by Supporter and promoter of anti-white racism »

Specifically for Muslims from muh decadent West, no less.

So much for the spirit of common universal worship of God that changed Malcolm X's mind on the prospect of interracial solidarity.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2022, 01:53:47 PM »

The Saudi conquest of Hejaz was the greatest tragedy for Islam since the Mongols rolled around, and it should have been prevented at all costs.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2022, 03:51:18 PM »
« Edited: June 10, 2022, 03:54:37 PM by All Along The Watchtower »

Imagine thinking that these inbred criminal morons represent Islam. They want the world to think that (handshake meme between the al-Saud/Wahhabism and Islamophobia). They named their country after themselves. And yet they have the gall to call Sufism and Shiism bad and un-Islamic because “they worship idols!” Roll Eyes

King Fahd literally declared himself “Custodian of the Holy Sites” because everyone from Khomeini and the Muslim Brotherhood to members of the Saudi clerical establishment along with ordinary Muslims worldwide were criticizing him for being an incompetent alcoholic and non-pious autocrat who burned through the national treasury in Las Vegas casinos when he wasn’t busy having cocaine orgies in the south of France (all 100% accurate criticisms ofc).

And of course, the disgusting tacky commercial al-Saud and their Wahhabi allies have a shared hatred of history, Islamic and Arabian history above all else, in addition to all of their other well-documented and ongoing crimes locally and globally—crimes against humanity. As I’ve heard some people call them, they are “an ISIS who ‘made it.’” Their collapse can’t come soon enough.

/rant
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2022, 06:57:43 PM »

I also do want to underscore that this is specifically to own Muslims from the Western world--not Muslims from Saudi Arabia's traditional enemies/rivals like Iran or Turkey or those of the Gulf states that hate it now. These are the people we're supposed to believe are better "allies" to the West than a hypothetical opening to Iran would get us. A reasonable argument can be made that trying to maneuver Iran into the diplomatic position that Saudi Arabia is in now would be more trouble than it's worth, but please let's not pretend the Saudis like or respect us. They don't.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2022, 08:58:17 PM »
« Edited: June 10, 2022, 09:02:24 PM by All Along The Watchtower »

I also do want to underscore that this is specifically to own Muslims from the Western world--not Muslims from Saudi Arabia's traditional enemies/rivals like Iran or Turkey or those of the Gulf states that hate it now. These are the people we're supposed to believe are better "allies" to the West than a hypothetical opening to Iran would get us.

Should be noted that of the two Saudi officials most responsible for improved counterterrorism cooperation with the US post-9/11—Mohammed bin Nayef and Saad al-Jabriri—the former is the ex-crown prince whom MBS shoved aside, arrested, and had tortured while the latter is the former intelligence advisor to bin Nayef who is being hunted by MBS’s goons in Canada, of all places.  Hell, FBI counterterrorism veteran Ali Soufan received threats against his life from the Saudi state for agreeing to meet with the 9/11 families and lawyers who filed the JASTA suit!

You could be forgiven, in our post-Trump, COVID-haunted world, if you didn’t know or had forgot about the Pensacola naval base attack in December 2019. Perpetrator was a Saudi military trainee and member of al-Qaeda who had been radicalized in the Kingdom—before he had been sent over to the US in 2017, well into MBS’s consolidation of power after his father came to the throne in early 2015. Remember what I said about MBN and al-Jaabri being our most reliable Saudi counterterrorism allies?

Wow, that’s a lot. I’m not sure our governing elite understands all of this (to the extent they care—dubious). Perhaps we need a Saudi with credibility in both their elite circles as well as ours, like Jamal Khash—oh, right.
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afleitch
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2022, 11:28:48 AM »

Yeah, it was heading down the North Korea style 'state controlled' route for some time. There's some legit concern over the international umrah (rather than hajj) market (it's not, a racket, but it is a hard sell to a lot of Muslims with a lot of western umrah travel agents, anecdotally) but it seems the Saud's not only want that market but benefits of the knock on effect of the hajj act of devotion too.

A visa lottery for the hajj...
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2022, 03:40:39 PM »

I also do want to underscore that this is specifically to own Muslims from the Western world--not Muslims from Saudi Arabia's traditional enemies/rivals like Iran or Turkey or those of the Gulf states that hate it now. These are the people we're supposed to believe are better "allies" to the West than a hypothetical opening to Iran would get us. A reasonable argument can be made that trying to maneuver Iran into the diplomatic position that Saudi Arabia is in now would be more trouble than it's worth, but please let's not pretend the Saudis like or respect us. They don't.

Nobody hates the Sauds more than I do, but while I don't know anything about this story than the link you've posted here (my mom has been in Bangladesh, but I'll talk to her when I see her next, since she'll have some thoughts), but my immediate reading is definitely not yours. The process of going on hajj is already quite unusual compared to other firms of travel, since travel has to be booked through a hajj-certified agency.

The most obvious explanation to me is that the government is now using covid-related disruption as an opportunity to permanently cut out the middlemen. It's not plausible to me that this is designed to spite the West, in part because this serves no obvious political goals but mostly because the state's religious legitimacy in the Islamic world depends entirely on its ability to guarantee access to the hajj. It cannot possibly be overstated how important this is.
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2022, 07:28:05 PM »

I also do want to underscore that this is specifically to own Muslims from the Western world--not Muslims from Saudi Arabia's traditional enemies/rivals like Iran or Turkey or those of the Gulf states that hate it now. These are the people we're supposed to believe are better "allies" to the West than a hypothetical opening to Iran would get us. A reasonable argument can be made that trying to maneuver Iran into the diplomatic position that Saudi Arabia is in now would be more trouble than it's worth, but please let's not pretend the Saudis like or respect us. They don't.

Nobody hates the Sauds more than I do, but while I don't know anything about this story than the link you've posted here (my mom has been in Bangladesh, but I'll talk to her when I see her next, since she'll have some thoughts), but my immediate reading is definitely not yours. The process of going on hajj is already quite unusual compared to other firms of travel, since travel has to be booked through a hajj-certified agency.

The most obvious explanation to me is that the government is now using covid-related disruption as an opportunity to permanently cut out the middlemen. It's not plausible to me that this is designed to spite the West, in part because this serves no obvious political goals but mostly because the state's religious legitimacy in the Islamic world depends entirely on its ability to guarantee access to the hajj. It cannot possibly be overstated how important this is.
Just wondering, what's the price of a typical Hajj travel package through one of these? I know it's well beyond the economic means of the vast majority of Muslims, but is it affordable for a typical middle class American family?
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2022, 09:52:13 AM »

I also do want to underscore that this is specifically to own Muslims from the Western world--not Muslims from Saudi Arabia's traditional enemies/rivals like Iran or Turkey or those of the Gulf states that hate it now. These are the people we're supposed to believe are better "allies" to the West than a hypothetical opening to Iran would get us. A reasonable argument can be made that trying to maneuver Iran into the diplomatic position that Saudi Arabia is in now would be more trouble than it's worth, but please let's not pretend the Saudis like or respect us. They don't.

Nobody hates the Sauds more than I do, but while I don't know anything about this story than the link you've posted here (my mom has been in Bangladesh, but I'll talk to her when I see her next, since she'll have some thoughts), but my immediate reading is definitely not yours. The process of going on hajj is already quite unusual compared to other firms of travel, since travel has to be booked through a hajj-certified agency.

The most obvious explanation to me is that the government is now using covid-related disruption as an opportunity to permanently cut out the middlemen. It's not plausible to me that this is designed to spite the West, in part because this serves no obvious political goals but mostly because the state's religious legitimacy in the Islamic world depends entirely on its ability to guarantee access to the hajj. It cannot possibly be overstated how important this is.
Just wondering, what's the price of a typical Hajj travel package through one of these? I know it's well beyond the economic means of the vast majority of Muslims, but is it affordable for a typical middle class American family?

Here's what I've had to say to this question before:

Out of curiosity, how much does going on Hajj cost?

It depends on what country you're coming from, since quotas for the Hajj are assigned by country and the only way to get the necessary documentation is by buying a travel package from a licensed agent in your country. Typically if you're coming from the United States the cost will end up being something in the very general ballpark of $10,000. From, say, Bangladesh, the price would be about half that. Part of the difference comes from the added expense of travel, but the bigger difference is that if you're American you'll be staying in luxury accommodations, because that's the only option that American packages offer. It's a strange system.

It's obviously a large expense but it's much less than, say, a new car.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2022, 05:46:01 PM »

Yeah I just thought this was MBS continuing the trend of centralising stuff under his purview, not like an attack on western Muslims or anything. I don't even see how the latter would make any sense: even apart from its religious responsibility to facilitate hajj for Muslims, the Saudi government loves wealthy western visitors and is making a massive push for foreign tourism at the moment.

More generally, I don't think the people in the west who despise the Saudis quite understand that they rule over an extremely conservative and anti western populace. The sectarianism and extremism that exists in the kingdom is not fundamentally coming from the royal family: the Saudis have taken massive risks with their own legitimacy in the eyes of their subjects to cultivate the existing US alliance.

MBS is a murderer and an increasingly autocratic dictator, but the idea he's a Wahhabi fanatic or anti-American is just factually incorrect.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2022, 10:32:54 PM »

More generally, I don't think the people in the west who despise the Saudis quite understand that they rule over an extremely conservative and anti western populace. The sectarianism and extremism that exists in the kingdom is not fundamentally coming from the royal family: the Saudis have taken massive risks with their own legitimacy in the eyes of their subjects to cultivate the existing US alliance.

I’m not sure how true this is, especially these days. And in any event it’s quite self-serving for the al-Saud in terms of their absolute rule, don’t you think?
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2022, 09:28:12 PM »

My parents have friends over, and this topic has come up. Everyone is pleased that prices this year are down several thousand dollars to $10,000 because the middlemen have been cut out.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2022, 12:12:51 AM »

My parents have friends over, and this topic has come up. Everyone is pleased that prices this year are down several thousand dollars to $10,000 because the middlemen have been cut out.

It's actually very good to know that this isn't (or at least isn't universally) being received by ordinary Muslims as the dire power grab I've been seeing it reported as. Thanks.
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2022, 01:44:33 AM »

I mean leaving aside Saudi Arabia's general terribleness, visits to the hajjj are already rather restricted with strict quotas being given to every country. It's a nessecary logistic measure to avoid overcrowding.
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2022, 07:46:23 PM »

The Saudi conquest of Hejaz was the greatest tragedy for Islam since the Mongols rolled around, and it should have been prevented at all costs.

This alongside the tragic abolition of the Ottoman Caliphate as well.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2022, 09:13:25 PM »

The Saudi conquest of Hejaz was the greatest tragedy for Islam since the Mongols rolled around, and it should have been prevented at all costs.

This alongside the tragic abolition of the Ottoman Caliphate as well.

The Late Ottoman Empire was very bad actually, and you can blame a lot of what came after on it.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2022, 09:31:36 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2022, 09:37:27 PM by FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 »

The Saudi conquest of Hejaz was the greatest tragedy for Islam since the Mongols rolled around, and it should have been prevented at all costs.

This alongside the tragic abolition of the Ottoman Caliphate as well.

The Late Ottoman Empire was very bad actually, and you can blame a lot of what came after on it.

There's no doubt the Ottoman Empire post Abdulmejid was becoming worse. From the absolutist tyranny of Abdulhamid to the genocidal Committee of Union of Progress, the "Eternal State" was doomed. However, I'm referring to the institution of the Caliphate which had survived the dissolution of the monarchy itself. Albeit, for not very long.
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2022, 02:08:33 AM »

Imagine thinking that these inbred criminal morons represent Islam. They want the world to think that (handshake meme between the al-Saud/Wahhabism and Islamophobia). They named their country after themselves. And yet they have the gall to call Sufism and Shiism bad and un-Islamic because “they worship idols!” Roll Eyes

King Fahd literally declared himself “Custodian of the Holy Sites” because everyone from Khomeini and the Muslim Brotherhood to members of the Saudi clerical establishment along with ordinary Muslims worldwide were criticizing him for being an incompetent alcoholic and non-pious autocrat who burned through the national treasury in Las Vegas casinos when he wasn’t busy having cocaine orgies in the south of France (all 100% accurate criticisms ofc).

And of course, the disgusting tacky commercial al-Saud and their Wahhabi allies have a shared hatred of history, Islamic and Arabian history above all else, in addition to all of their other well-documented and ongoing crimes locally and globally—crimes against humanity. As I’ve heard some people call them, they are “an ISIS who ‘made it.’” Their collapse can’t come soon enough.

/rant

According to one of my Muslim friends they are more than used to terrible people being construed as 'representing Islam'
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