Parents of trans teenager in Texas investigated for "child abuse" after suicide attempt

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

And I suppose you'd argue that parents who oppose their trans children's transition, often violently, are off the hook if the trans kid attempts suicide?

Yes.

Jesus ing Christ, you have no empathy. Like, I get the idea that trans people being their proper selves is a mutilation (though I disagree with it being any different than any other form of healthcare), but you've got to be one sick son of a bitch to let abusive parents off the hook.

I don't support letting abusive parents off the hook, but opposing hormone therapy isn't abuse.

Well, you didn't say that.

A parent finds a vial of doctor-prescribed hormones in their kid's sock drawer. The parent beats the kid. CPS gets involved and gets the kid out of there. Should the hormones not be returned to the kid? If the hormones are no longer accessible to the kid and they attempt or commit suicide, and the suicide note explicitly says the lack of access to hormones was the motivator, are CPS and the parents in the right for denying hormone access?

[7,052,770]

Hormone Therapy should be banned for anyone who is under 18 but only the doctors should be held legally responsible

So much for your "parental rights" stance from a few weeks ago? The one where you said you oppose Abbott's bill because the state shouldn't tell parents they're not allowed to let their kids transition if they're OK with it?

[Ferguson97]

Cutting off a part of a child's genitals without their consent is not mutilation, but a teenager choosing to take a hormone pill prescribed by a doctor is mutilation?

Yes.

And I suppose you'd argue that parents who oppose their trans children's transition, often violently, are off the hook if the trans kid attempts suicide?

Yes.

There is no other explanation for these conflicting beliefs other than extreme and violent hatred of trans people.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

And I suppose you'd argue that parents who oppose their trans children's transition, often violently, are off the hook if the trans kid attempts suicide?

Yes.

Jesus ing Christ, you have no empathy. Like, I get the idea that trans people being their proper selves is a mutilation (though I disagree with it being any different than any other form of healthcare), but you've got to be one sick son of a bitch to let abusive parents off the hook.

I don't support letting abusive parents off the hook, but opposing hormone therapy isn't abuse.

Well, you didn't say that.

A parent finds a vial of doctor-prescribed hormones in their kid's sock drawer. The parent beats the kid. CPS gets involved and gets the kid out of there. Should the hormones not be returned to the kid? If the hormones are no longer accessible to the kid and they attempt or commit suicide, and the suicide note explicitly says the lack of access to hormones was the motivator, are CPS and the parents in the right for denying hormone access?

Yes, the hormones should not be returned to the kid, because hormone therapy and all other transition related treatments should be banned for minors. CPS would be in the right for denying hormone access: the parents would be in the right for denying hormone access, but in the wrong for their use of unnecessary physical force.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

If in any other circumstance a child attempted suicide after their parents mutilated them, there would be an investigation at the very least. Not sure why this should be any different here.

Hormone therapy is mutilation? Even when the kid has probably only been on hormones for a short time? How many times do transphobes have to he told that minors do not get genital surgery for you to stop pretending that that is the case? If a circumcised kid attempts suicide, should the parents be on the hook? What about a cancer survivor who went through chemo, what if they attempt suicide? What about a cis teen who got a nose job?

Hormone therapy is mutilation, yes. Circumcision and cancer treatments are not mutilation. Nose rings are mutilation, but of a far lower degree than hormone therapy and are reversible without medical impact.

Credibility lost.

Circumcision is a medically beneficial procedure that should be common practice in more countries.

[John Dule]

If in any other circumstance a child attempted suicide after their parents mutilated them, there would be an investigation at the very least. Not sure why this should be any different here.

Hormone therapy is mutilation? Even when the kid has probably only been on hormones for a short time? How many times do transphobes have to he told that minors do not get genital surgery for you to stop pretending that that is the case? If a circumcised kid attempts suicide, should the parents be on the hook? What about a cancer survivor who went through chemo, what if they attempt suicide? What about a cis teen who got a nose job?

Hormone therapy is mutilation, yes. Circumcision and cancer treatments are not mutilation. Nose rings are mutilation, but of a far lower degree than hormone therapy and are reversible without medical impact.

Credibility lost.

Circumcision is a medically beneficial procedure that should be common practice in more countries.

The transgender community has identified more tangible health benefits to transitioning than anyone has been able to identify for circumcision. You are wrong.

[Trans Rights Are Human Rights]

And I suppose you'd argue that parents who oppose their trans children's transition, often violently, are off the hook if the trans kid attempts suicide?

Yes.

Jesus ing Christ, you have no empathy. Like, I get the idea that trans people being their proper selves is a mutilation (though I disagree with it being any different than any other form of healthcare), but you've got to be one sick son of a bitch to let abusive parents off the hook.

I don't support letting abusive parents off the hook, but opposing hormone therapy isn't abuse.

Okay. So let's take, say, the story of Dreadnought, from the book Dreadnought. Dreadnought, Danielle, is a teenage transgender lesbian who is "mutilated" (read: transformed into a girl) by her predecessor, renowned as the world's most powerful superhero. She comes home to her parents and explains that she's a girl now, and that they should accept it. However, her father, Roger, desperate to hold on to the dream of his son, is having none of that, and is more than willing to force his daughter to take testosterone to return her to her male form. When she tells him that she actually likes being a girl, and had, in fact, wanted to be one for years, he reacts... well, about the same way you'd react if your kid came out as trans. He screams a metric sh**tton of slurs and eventually kicks her out of the house. Who's the asshole: Danielle or Roger?

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

CPS would be in the right for denying hormone access: the parents would be in the right for denying hormone access, but in the wrong for their use of unnecessary physical force.

What level of force is necessary to deny a trans person's medical and bodily autonomy, since you've established that doing so is necessary?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Hormone Therapy should be banned for anyone who is under 18 but only the doctors should be held legally responsible

So much for your "parental rights" stance from a few weeks ago? The one where you said you oppose Abbott's bill because the state shouldn't tell parents they're not allowed to let their kids transition if they're OK with it?

I oppose it because it would hold parents legally liable and I dont think they do. Also I think Puberty Blockers should be allowed with parental permission so no its not hypocritical at all. Anyway here is my full opinion on the issue:

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=496790.0


This thread was made so posters on here can give their opinion and cite it so positions dont get misinterpreted on boards like this one

[world.execute(me)]

If in any other circumstance a child attempted suicide after their parents mutilated them, there would be an investigation at the very least. Not sure why this should be any different here.

Hormone therapy is mutilation? Even when the kid has probably only been on hormones for a short time? How many times do transphobes have to he told that minors do not get genital surgery for you to stop pretending that that is the case? If a circumcised kid attempts suicide, should the parents be on the hook? What about a cancer survivor who went through chemo, what if they attempt suicide? What about a cis teen who got a nose job?

Hormone therapy is mutilation, yes. Circumcision and cancer treatments are not mutilation. Nose rings are mutilation, but of a far lower degree than hormone therapy and are reversible without medical impact.

Credibility lost.

Circumcision is a medically beneficial procedure that should be common practice in more countries.

Circumcision only has minor medical benefits that will not matter to most people, and is done on newborn babies without their consent, whereas HRT is hugely beneficial to trans teens, many of whom are suicidal without it, and also explicitly requested by the kid. I speak from personal experience here.

[7,052,770]

Hormone Therapy should be banned for anyone who is under 18 but only the doctors should be held legally responsible

So much for your "parental rights" stance from a few weeks ago? The one where you said you oppose Abbott's bill because the state shouldn't tell parents they're not allowed to let their kids transition if they're OK with it?

I oppose it because it would hold parents legally liable and I dont think they do. Also I think Puberty Blockers should be allowed with parental permission so no its not hypocritical at all. Anyway here is my full opinion on the issue:

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=496790.0

This thread was made so posters on here can give their opinion and cite it so positions dont get misinterpreted on boards like this one

In sentence 1 you say you oppose it "because it would hold parents legally liable" and then in the next sentence you say that puberty blockers should be allowed, which would imply that you oppose it because you support puberty blockers should be allowed.

How can you expect anyone to know what your position is when you contradict yourself from sentence to sentence?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Hormone Therapy should be banned for anyone who is under 18 but only the doctors should be held legally responsible

So much for your "parental rights" stance from a few weeks ago? The one where you said you oppose Abbott's bill because the state shouldn't tell parents they're not allowed to let their kids transition if they're OK with it?

I oppose it because it would hold parents legally liable and I dont think they do. Also I think Puberty Blockers should be allowed with parental permission so no its not hypocritical at all. Anyway here is my full opinion on the issue:

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=496790.0

This thread was made so posters on here can give their opinion and cite it so positions dont get misinterpreted on boards like this one

In sentence 1 you say you oppose it "because it would hold parents legally liable" and then in the next sentence you say that puberty blockers should be allowed, which would imply that you oppose it because you support puberty blockers should be allowed.

How can you expect anyone to know what your position is when you contradict yourself from sentence to sentence?

Read the thread I linked

[7,052,770]

Hormone Therapy should be banned for anyone who is under 18 but only the doctors should be held legally responsible

So much for your "parental rights" stance from a few weeks ago? The one where you said you oppose Abbott's bill because the state shouldn't tell parents they're not allowed to let their kids transition if they're OK with it?

I oppose it because it would hold parents legally liable and I dont think they do. Also I think Puberty Blockers should be allowed with parental permission so no its not hypocritical at all. Anyway here is my full opinion on the issue:

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=496790.0

This thread was made so posters on here can give their opinion and cite it so positions dont get misinterpreted on boards like this one

In sentence 1 you say you oppose it "because it would hold parents legally liable" and then in the next sentence you say that puberty blockers should be allowed, which would imply that you oppose it because you support puberty blockers should be allowed.

How can you expect anyone to know what your position is when you contradict yourself from sentence to sentence?

Read the thread I linked

I've seen it. Between this thread and that one, you've made 4 contradictory statements. That's fine - this isn't an easy issue, and people are often like that. (I wouldn't doubt you could find examples of me doing it too.) Just don't get surprised when people aren't sure what you actually believe.

[Aurelius]

Regardless of your opinions on what ideal policy should be regarding medical transition for minors - a difficult issue - it seems absurd to me for the state to go after parents for following the advice of doctors. Doctors are trusted authority figures and it's absolutely reasonable for parents to trust them and follow their advice especially on difficult issues like this. If a state or country thinks the established system of best practice within its jurisdiction is wrong, then they should act not by going after the parents or the kids but by changing the standards of best practices, like I believe a few countries in Europe have done recently. If you really think that what doctors are doing is evil child abuse than it's absurd to let doctors keep doing what they are doing while punishing parents for following their advice.

Between this and the private-action abortion law I don't think Abbott has sane intuitions about how the law ought to work.

[Hammy]

If you really think that what doctors are doing is evil child abuse than it's absurd to let doctors keep doing what they are doing while punishing parents for following their advice.

Between this and the private-action abortion law I don't think Abbott has sane intuitions about how the law ought to work.

People like Abbott are actively using laws like this to go after people they see as undesirable, and these laws were specifically crafted with that as the endgame.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Btw a funny little tidbit on this big debate we keep having on puberty blockers here:
https://mobile.twitter.com/TabitaSurge/status/1535545393727029250

[Leo]

Regardless of your opinions on what ideal policy should be regarding medical transition for minors - a difficult issue - it seems absurd to me for the state to go after parents for following the advice of doctors. Doctors are trusted authority figures and it's absolutely reasonable for parents to trust them and follow their advice especially on difficult issues like this.

Come on.  Let's be honest.  After the last couple of years the United States has had I think it has become pretty clear there is a pretty substantial minority of doctors that are obviously crazy.

Touted by Joe Rogan and Aaron Rodgers, the anti-parasite drug Ivermectin has been treated as miracle drug of sorts among anti-vaxxer circles. Rumors of it effectiveness led to increased sales of the drug at pharmacies and some people using the veterinary version of the drug (yes, the kind meant for horses) as a preventative or treatment for Covid.

One of the drug's biggest promoters, Dr. Pierre Kory, a critical care doctor based in Wisconsin, claimed to take the drug weekly last December during a U.S. Senate hearing. Eight months later, he contracted Covid-19, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported on Wednesday. Kory has not publicly stated if he is vaccinated against the disease.

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a38281370/pierre-kory-ivermectin-catches-covid/

https://twitter.com/US_FDA/status/1429050070243192839

If the UK, Sweden, and Finland in quick succession clamp down on puberty blockers and HRT for children and you just ignore that and go doctor shopping till you find someone who will inject this stuff into your kid you are responsible.

In Texas where this enforcement is going on most GPs and Pediatricians want nothing to do with playing god with children's development.  You have to go out of your way to seek out someone with a medical license that is cool with this.

I am not saying I support the governor or have an opinion about whether this stuff should be legal but acting like these are just innocent parents who can't think for themselves is taking things a bit too far.

Every parent has a PhD when it comes to vaccinating their children but now they don't even have a GED when it comes to puberty blockers?  Come on.

[lfromnj]

Regarding children,

https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-psychologist-reckons-support-generation-100020070.html
This article is a long list of someone who actually is trans and also a psychologist but I don't think is a full on activist unlike many others within the movement. She herself believes some stuff have actually gone too far but talking too much about it gets all the activists riled up as killing kids.


::

In early 2021, Anderson logged into a Zoom meeting with a team of experts at UC San Francisco to meet a new patient and his family.

He was 13, and about two months earlier he had started identifying as male. According to his parents, it wasn't until puberty that he had shown any sign of distress over gender.

A pediatrician had already put him on testosterone, even though he had not met with a psychologist.

“Why is this kid on testosterone so precipitously?” Anderson asked her colleagues.

It did not take long for the team to agree to discontinue the hormone and offer a referral to a gender specialist.

Leo is probably correct that some parents are just Doctor shopping. Most likely out of love but this is definitely dangerous.

In October, as her two-year tenure as president of the U.S. arm of WPATH was nearing its end, Anderson granted an interview to Abigail Shrier, author of the contentious 2020 book "Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters." Anderson told her that too many clinicians were rushing teens into medicalization and that “sloppy healthcare work” would result in “more young adults who will regret having gone through this process.”

She was not the only leading trans healthcare figure to publicly express such concerns. Dr. Marci Bowers, a vaginoplasty specialist from Burlingame, Calif., who had just been elected president of WPATH, told Shrier that she worried about the risks of puberty blockers for children in the early stages of puberty and suggested that some of her peers wanted to stifle dissenting views "to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming."

Over the last few months, some European countries have reversed course and urged more caution.

In February, health authorities in Sweden, a pioneer in trans healthcare, said that “uncertain science," rising numbers of people who regret transitioning and potential side effects prompted the nation to restrict using hormone treatments for most people under 18.

France’s National Academy of Medicine also advised caution in the use of blockers or hormones for youth, citing potential side effects. “The risk of over-diagnosis is real, as evidenced by the growing number of young adults wishing to 'detransition,' ” the academy said.

To everyone calling us genocidal why aren't supporting a military invasion of France and Sweden?

[DaleCooper]

Regarding children,

https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-psychologist-reckons-support-generation-100020070.html
This article is a long list of someone who actually is trans and also a psychologist but I don't think is a full on activist unlike many others within the movement. She herself believes some stuff have actually gone too far but talking too much about it gets all the activists riled up as killing kids.


::

In early 2021, Anderson logged into a Zoom meeting with a team of experts at UC San Francisco to meet a new patient and his family.

He was 13, and about two months earlier he had started identifying as male. According to his parents, it wasn't until puberty that he had shown any sign of distress over gender.

A pediatrician had already put him on testosterone, even though he had not met with a psychologist.

“Why is this kid on testosterone so precipitously?” Anderson asked her colleagues.

It did not take long for the team to agree to discontinue the hormone and offer a referral to a gender specialist.

Leo is probably correct that some parents are just Doctor shopping. Most likely out of love but this is definitely dangerous.

In October, as her two-year tenure as president of the U.S. arm of WPATH was nearing its end, Anderson granted an interview to Abigail Shrier, author of the contentious 2020 book "Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters." Anderson told her that too many clinicians were rushing teens into medicalization and that “sloppy healthcare work” would result in “more young adults who will regret having gone through this process.”

She was not the only leading trans healthcare figure to publicly express such concerns. Dr. Marci Bowers, a vaginoplasty specialist from Burlingame, Calif., who had just been elected president of WPATH, told Shrier that she worried about the risks of puberty blockers for children in the early stages of puberty and suggested that some of her peers wanted to stifle dissenting views "to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming."

Over the last few months, some European countries have reversed course and urged more caution.

In February, health authorities in Sweden, a pioneer in trans healthcare, said that “uncertain science," rising numbers of people who regret transitioning and potential side effects prompted the nation to restrict using hormone treatments for most people under 18.

France’s National Academy of Medicine also advised caution in the use of blockers or hormones for youth, citing potential side effects. “The risk of over-diagnosis is real, as evidenced by the growing number of young adults wishing to 'detransition,' ” the academy said.

To everyone calling us genocidal why aren't supporting a military invasion of France and Sweden?

You're never going to get anyone to acknowledge this. Progressives have gone all in on these drugs being a miracle cure (which somehow has no longterm side effects) that it would probably look worse at this point for them to backtrack on it than it would be to just stick to their guns. Even the ardently pro-puberty blocker doctors have quietly phased out the "pause button" language, but activists and everyone on here will still use it to win arguments.

[Sestak]

To everyone calling us genocidal why aren't supporting a military invasion of France and Sweden?

Are France and Sweden ordering an extrajudicial enforcement squad to punish people on hormones ex post facto by separating them from their parents?

[7,052,770]

To everyone calling us genocidal why aren't supporting a military invasion of France and Sweden?

I'm not sure about France, but in Sweden it was just one hospital decided not to give them anymore, it wasn't the government banning them altogether, and it sure wasn't the government investigating parents as child abusers.

[parochial boy]

Regarding children,

https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-psychologist-reckons-support-generation-100020070.html
This article is a long list of someone who actually is trans and also a psychologist but I don't think is a full on activist unlike many others within the movement. She herself believes some stuff have actually gone too far but talking too much about it gets all the activists riled up as killing kids.


::

In early 2021, Anderson logged into a Zoom meeting with a team of experts at UC San Francisco to meet a new patient and his family.

He was 13, and about two months earlier he had started identifying as male. According to his parents, it wasn't until puberty that he had shown any sign of distress over gender.

A pediatrician had already put him on testosterone, even though he had not met with a psychologist.

“Why is this kid on testosterone so precipitously?” Anderson asked her colleagues.

It did not take long for the team to agree to discontinue the hormone and offer a referral to a gender specialist.

Leo is probably correct that some parents are just Doctor shopping. Most likely out of love but this is definitely dangerous.

In October, as her two-year tenure as president of the U.S. arm of WPATH was nearing its end, Anderson granted an interview to Abigail Shrier, author of the contentious 2020 book "Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters." Anderson told her that too many clinicians were rushing teens into medicalization and that “sloppy healthcare work” would result in “more young adults who will regret having gone through this process.”

She was not the only leading trans healthcare figure to publicly express such concerns. Dr. Marci Bowers, a vaginoplasty specialist from Burlingame, Calif., who had just been elected president of WPATH, told Shrier that she worried about the risks of puberty blockers for children in the early stages of puberty and suggested that some of her peers wanted to stifle dissenting views "to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming."

Over the last few months, some European countries have reversed course and urged more caution.

In February, health authorities in Sweden, a pioneer in trans healthcare, said that “uncertain science," rising numbers of people who regret transitioning and potential side effects prompted the nation to restrict using hormone treatments for most people under 18.

France’s National Academy of Medicine also advised caution in the use of blockers or hormones for youth, citing potential side effects. “The risk of over-diagnosis is real, as evidenced by the growing number of young adults wishing to 'detransition,' ” the academy said.

To everyone calling us genocidal why aren't supporting a military invasion of France and Sweden?

There's quite a big difference between "urging caution" when it comes to the prescription of puberty blockers and... what Texas is doing.

I haven't read much into the Sweden situation but France in particular has actually recently updated its guidance in order to make schools more inclusive to trans kids (ie about using their chosen names, access to certain spaces, what to do on school trips, legal recognition of gender self identification and so on...), and this was even issued under the mandate of a very conservative education minister whose calling card is having hysterics about how the "wokists" are destroying everything that moves.

[Ferguson97]

Sestak articulated this very well:

I find the hyperbole claims with regard to the genocide term a little bit misplaced.

If you are a trans minor in Texas who is not estranged from their family right now (or circa 12 hours ago prior to court ruling anyway), you have two options:

1. Hide your existence from the state
2. Lose your family

If any other group in any other country were faced with such a situation I think almost anyone here wouldn’t hesitate to label it at least as a precursor to genocide.

[politicallefty]

If in any other circumstance a child attempted suicide after their parents mutilated them, there would be an investigation at the very least. Not sure why this should be any different here.

Hormone therapy is mutilation? Even when the kid has probably only been on hormones for a short time? How many times do transphobes have to he told that minors do not get genital surgery for you to stop pretending that that is the case? If a circumcised kid attempts suicide, should the parents be on the hook? What about a cancer survivor who went through chemo, what if they attempt suicide? What about a cis teen who got a nose job?

Hormone therapy is mutilation, yes. Circumcision and cancer treatments are not mutilation. Nose rings are mutilation, but of a far lower degree than hormone therapy and are reversible without medical impact.

Credibility lost.

Circumcision is a medically beneficial procedure that should be common practice in more countries.

Circumcision only has minor medical benefits that will not matter to most people, and is done on newborn babies without their consent, whereas HRT is hugely beneficial to trans teens, many of whom are suicidal without it, and also explicitly requested by the kid. I speak from personal experience here.

When it comes to the right-wing, it seems like they treat circumcision like guns: America is right and everyone else is wrong. That's pretty much the way it is on both issues. There isn't a country on Earth that supports either apart from the US.

I don't have a strong stance on the trans issue in terms of how hormones should be given. However, I would say that I have a strong stance that one's own genitals belong to oneself. I would also argue that that right starts from birth and it is not a right that should be overridden apart from absolute medical need.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

As long as Abbott is doing this instead of going after LGB people I guess it's a win.