SB 109-02: Don't Kill People Act (Passed)

[Joseph Cao]

SENATE BILL

To prohibit the GM from killing players

SECTION I. SHORT TITLE.

This bill shall be referred to as the Don't Kill People Act

SECTION II. PROVISIONS.

No officer of the game engine may write into canon the death of any player, registered or otherwise, without the expressly written, freely given, unrevoked public consent of the player in question within 72 hours of the story's writing.

SECTION III. INSURANCE.

For the purposes of any legislation which repeals or replaces all legislation to do with game moderation, the game engine, or any other such category, this act shall not be considered to fall within that category. Unless explicitly named or listed individually, this act shall be considered an exception to any blanket repeal or replacement of numerous federal statutes.

Sponsor: Sestak
Status: Final Vote

The gentleman from Montana is recognized.

[Sestak]

Right. Simplest one first; at least when GERA was passed (and maybe earlier) the “all previous game engine bills are repealed” provision accidentally repealed the ban on GMs killing players. This reinstates that provision and also tries to prevent future repetition of this issue by specifying that it can only be repealed by explicitly naming it or by directly contradicting its statements.

I’ve also tightened up the requirements for a valid consent for GM-canon death. Am fine keeping this as an option since it’s always been there and it could be fun in some circumstances, but I see no issue in further limiting it to prevent abuse.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Even absent such ban, I don't think the GM had that authority during the crisis.

Even so, we should pass this to ensure clarity.

[Sestak]

Even absent such ban, I don't think the GM had that authority during the crisis.

Even so, we should pass this to ensure clarity.

It's murky but I think there's enough room for a GM to claim the powers that this is basically a necessary sagefuard. The constitution allows the Game Engine "whatever powers the Senate deems necessary"; GERA grants in turn the powers to "simulate the actions of non-playable entities" and "simulate domestic and global events" as well as the final say on what ingame occurences are canon; without the protection this legislation would give it's not hard to argue that this includes events that would kill players.

Now, the Census act does not list canon death as a valid reason to remove a player from the rolls, so presumably if a player is killed they would still be able to vote and be a candidate for office as usual. The Constitution, however, does list "death" as a reason for creation of a vacancy in the Senate or Presidency, so the killed player presumably would still have to forfeit those offices by default (and depending on interpretation might continue to be unable to swear into those offices again even if they could be elected).

So yeah, I think a serious argument could be made on the legal side that the GM right now does have the power to kill players in a manner with clear ingame ramifications.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Even absent such ban, I don't think the GM had that authority during the crisis.

Even so, we should pass this to ensure clarity.

It's murky but I think there's enough room for a GM to claim the powers that this is basically a necessary sagefuard. The constitution allows the Game Engine "whatever powers the Senate deems necessary"; GERA grants in turn the powers to "simulate the actions of non-playable entities" and "simulate domestic and global events" as well as the final say on what ingame occurences are canon; without the protection this legislation would give it's not hard to argue that this includes events that would kill players.

Now, the Census act does not list canon death as a valid reason to remove a player from the rolls, so presumably if a player is killed they would still be able to vote and be a candidate for office as usual. The Constitution, however, does list "death" as a reason for creation of a vacancy in the Senate or Presidency, so the killed player presumably would still have to forfeit those offices by default (and depending on interpretation might continue to be unable to swear into those offices again even if they could be elected).

So yeah, I think a serious argument could be made on the legal side that the GM right now does have the power to kill players in a manner with clear ingame ramifications.

If forced to choose at gunpoint between losing the elections game, or nuking the GM's relevance, I was certainly prepared to choose the latter and I am fairly certain Adam would as well based on his history and statements as such.

The game survived without a GM for a number of years in the 2000s for example, and while giving Oakvale a win on this point would be grating, its better than the alternative.

At minimum the Supreme Court would injunct such actions pending deliberation, long enough for us to have ousted the conspirators and nuked Crane as GM.

[Sestak]

[snip]

Yea I'm not discussing what would have happened on the practical end; only what existed on the legal end. The former really has no issues but important to shore up the latter.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

So hypothetically, a person could kill themself in-game and therefore be permanently barred from ever holding office? Considering how many people (myself included) leave the game and decide to come back, I don't think this is a good idea. Just outlaw canon player deaths period.

[Joseph Cao]

Yeah, I think to Sestak's point the Census and the Constitution do diverge on the issue of a self-declared death without an accompanying deregistration. Probably best to just make sure the both of them line up without introducing that new wrinkle.

[Joseph Cao]

SENATE BILL

To prohibit the GM from killing players

SECTION I. SHORT TITLE.

This bill shall be referred to as the Don't Kill People Act

SECTION II. PROVISIONS.

No officer of the game engine may write into canon the death of any player, registered or otherwise, without the expressly written, freely given, unrevoked public consent of the player in question within 72 hours of the story's writing.

SECTION III. INSURANCE.

For the purposes of any legislation which repeals or replaces all legislation to do with game moderation, the game engine, or any other such category, this act shall not be considered to fall within that category. Unless explicitly named or listed individually, this act shall be considered an exception to any blanket repeal or replacement of numerous federal statutes.

[Sestak]

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

[Dr. MB]

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

[Sestak]

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

Again, this goes to Cao’s point about some inconsistencies. The census act does NOT allow GM actions to dictate voter rolls. So the killed player would stay on the voter rolls and always be allowed to return.

“Death”, however, would forfeit all federal offices held by the killed player as the constitution states death of incumbent is a vacancy. Then we run into the real interpretive problem:

If “death” refers to the singular act of dying, then players would still be free to run for and assume offices after their death.

However, if “death” refers to the state of being, then you could argue they cannot assume office as the seat would automatically become vacant by death of the incumbent.

So I think the consequences in that direction can be dealt with so long as the former (and more obvious option imo) is the interpretation everyone’s going with. Whether or not we want to actually keep this possibility is a separate idea.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I would agree with Cao's amendment and share this concern:

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

Death should probably stay as a condition to declare an office vacant, in case someone important legit dies in RL (assuming we had proof of that), as otherwise we would leave an office effectively vacant for the remainder of the term (or in the case of say, a SCOA judge, literally forever, barring impeachment). It's probably not necessary to add this to the Census Act as we already have auto deregistration after missing three elections.

[Joseph Cao]

Oh yeah, I forgot – 24 hours to object to the above amendment.

[Joseph Cao]

Amendment is adopted.

[wxtransit]

Motion for a final vote.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would agree with Cao's amendment and share this concern:

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

Death should probably stay as a condition to declare an office vacant, in case someone important legit dies in RL (assuming we had proof of that), as otherwise we would leave an office effectively vacant for the remainder of the term (or in the case of say, a SCOA judge, literally forever, barring impeachment). It's probably not necessary to add this to the Census Act as we already have auto deregistration after missing three elections.

Thats a rather unfortunate situation actually, because it would be difficult to prove or know if someone died IRL.

[Joseph Cao]

I would agree with Cao's amendment and share this concern:

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

Death should probably stay as a condition to declare an office vacant, in case someone important legit dies in RL (assuming we had proof of that), as otherwise we would leave an office effectively vacant for the remainder of the term (or in the case of say, a SCOA judge, literally forever, barring impeachment). It's probably not necessary to add this to the Census Act as we already have auto deregistration after missing three elections.

Thats a rather unfortunate situation actually, because it would be difficult to prove or know if someone died IRL.

Inability to ascertain the player's whereabouts/physical wellbeing would count as incapacitation for most intents and purposes probably, same as all prolonged periods of inactivity. Of course the issue is with being sure.

In any case, 24 hours to object to the motion for a final vote.

Personally I'm reasonably OK with where we are right now – the main thing is eliminating the possibility of a GM killing players since by and large GMs don't need or care to write players out of the game anyway.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

I would agree with Cao's amendment and share this concern:

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

Death should probably stay as a condition to declare an office vacant, in case someone important legit dies in RL (assuming we had proof of that), as otherwise we would leave an office effectively vacant for the remainder of the term (or in the case of say, a SCOA judge, literally forever, barring impeachment). It's probably not necessary to add this to the Census Act as we already have auto deregistration after missing three elections.

Thats a rather unfortunate situation actually, because it would be difficult to prove or know if someone died IRL.

Perhaps a bit insensitive to ask but have there been any atlas politicians who died in office? I remember from one of Fhtagn's threads celebrating women in Atlasia there was a former regional legislator who passed, don't remember their name.

[beesley]

Final vote motion seconded, if that's necessary.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I would agree with Cao's amendment and share this concern:

If possible I’d like to hear other members’ thoughts before deciding friendly or not. Don’t care too much about voluntary death myself but it’s stuck around as a legal option for a long time and I assume there probably are some arguments for keeping them? Would like to hear.

If a player "voluntarily dies," wouldn't they be forbidden from coming back without the GM writing a story magically resurrecting them? I could see players using this as a way to deregister "for good" without the temptation of coming back but instead it creates a big issue. We've seen players like Laki/FDB/Ninja leave and rejoin countless amounts of times and I'd imagine most players who consent to the GM killing them off have a similar mindset and might regret their decision a little while later.

Death should probably stay as a condition to declare an office vacant, in case someone important legit dies in RL (assuming we had proof of that), as otherwise we would leave an office effectively vacant for the remainder of the term (or in the case of say, a SCOA judge, literally forever, barring impeachment). It's probably not necessary to add this to the Census Act as we already have auto deregistration after missing three elections.

Thats a rather unfortunate situation actually, because it would be difficult to prove or know if someone died IRL.

Perhaps a bit insensitive to ask but have there been any atlas politicians who died in office? I remember from one of Fhtagn's threads celebrating women in Atlasia there was a former regional legislator who passed, don't remember their name.

That may have been Kitteh. She was, if memory serves, another G-VA (like fhtagn at the time) who died from diabetic shock. Very kind poster.

[Joseph Cao]

SENATE BILL

To prohibit the GM from killing players

SECTION I. SHORT TITLE.

This bill shall be referred to as the Don't Kill People Act

SECTION II. PROVISIONS.

No officer of the game engine may write into canon the death of any player, registered or otherwise.

SECTION III. INSURANCE.

For the purposes of any legislation which repeals or replaces all legislation to do with game moderation, the game engine, or any other such category, this act shall not be considered to fall within that category. Unless explicitly named or listed individually, this act shall be considered an exception to any blanket repeal or replacement of numerous federal statutes.

A final vote is now open on this bill for 96 hours. Senators, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

AYE

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

Aye

[Continential]

Aye