Who is more of a person?
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  Who is more of a person?
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Poll
Question: Human Fetus vs. Nonhuman Ape: which constitutes a person?
#1
A human fetus
 
#2
Nonhuman Great Apes
 
#3
Both are people
 
#4
Neither are people
 
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Total Voters: 48

Author Topic: Who is more of a person?  (Read 1441 times)
Klobmentum Mutilated Herself
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« on: May 01, 2022, 04:00:11 PM »

Nonhuman Great Apes are almost genetically identical to humans, with bonobos and chimpanzees sharing almost 99% of DNA in common with humans; the difference  between our DNA and nonhuman Great Ape DNA is smaller than the difference between nonhuman Great Ape DNA and the DNA of non-ape primates. Great apes live a lifestyle and structure their societies almost identically to the way that Homo sapiens have lived for the vast majority of our existence, to say nothing of our hominin ancestors. Just about everything that we think of as important to personhood which separates us from the 'filthy animals' - sentience, language, culture, tool-use, intelligence, self-conception, having thumbs and looking like a human - is practiced every day not only by the Great Apes, but by the lesser apes and the monkeys. While apes have their own languages, verbal and nonverbal, that are incredibly complex and far better measures of their intelligence than the ability to learn human languages, it is a fact that apes are capable of learning human languages as well, namely American Sign Language. They even look a lot like humans.

While scientists and environmentalists have argued for the recognition of Great Ape personhood for decades, such calls have not caught on with the general public. However, many swaths of Americans, perhaps even a majority, recognize unborn fetuses as people. Many Atlas posters argue that human fetuses are people.

Who is more of a person: nonhuman Great Apes, or unborn human fetuses? And if you argue an unborn human fetus is a person and don't recognize the personhood of apes who are already born, explain why you draw that distinction.
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Schiff for Senate
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2022, 04:02:23 PM »

I'm going to say Option 2 though a credible case could be made for literally any of the 4.
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John Dule
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2022, 04:17:09 PM »

Neither possess the essential attributes of humanity (rationality and the profit motive).
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James Monroe
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2022, 04:37:20 PM »

Nonhuman Apes and Primates all across the globe deserve the same right as Homo sapiens. It makes no logical sense to denigrate our family because we happened to be the most advanced species of the extended family.  In the same way transgender people deserve the same opportunity as cis-hetereotsexeual people, or different races as blacks and Hispanics deserve the same equal treatment as Caucasian folks, so do our fellow primates who share many unique perspectives on life, even if they may lack the needed intelligence that advanced the human species into the dominant life form on Earth.  Let's treat our Gorillas and Chimpanzees the level of respect we give to our fellow man.
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Dr. MB
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2022, 05:13:59 PM »

Nonhuman Apes and Primates all across the globe deserve the same right as Homo sapiens. It makes no logical sense to denigrate our family because we happened to be the most advanced species of the extended family.  In the same way transgender people deserve the same opportunity as cis-hetereotsexeual people, or different races as blacks and Hispanics deserve the same equal treatment as Caucasian folks, so do our fellow primates who share many unique perspectives on life, even if they may lack the needed intelligence that advanced the human species into the dominant life form on Earth.  Let's treat our Gorillas and Chimpanzees the level of respect we give to our fellow man.
Would you extend that level of sympathy to Sasquatch as well?
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James Monroe
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2022, 05:51:32 PM »

Nonhuman Apes and Primates all across the globe deserve the same right as Homo sapiens. It makes no logical sense to denigrate our family because we happened to be the most advanced species of the extended family.  In the same way transgender people deserve the same opportunity as cis-hetereotsexeual people, or different races as blacks and Hispanics deserve the same equal treatment as Caucasian folks, so do our fellow primates who share many unique perspectives on life, even if they may lack the needed intelligence that advanced the human species into the dominant life form on Earth.  Let's treat our Gorillas and Chimpanzees the level of respect we give to our fellow man.
Would you extend that level of sympathy to Sasquatch as well?

If Sasquatch exist I see no reason to bear it's qualities.
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Georg Ebner
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2022, 08:02:17 PM »

A person/individuum is only, who is fighting inside his animalic life and is at the same time - with his selfConsciousness - standing aside as an "alien" obServer.

That does not fit to animals or demented/mad human beings, but that is not their fault and as a result they deserve our respect and benevolent leadership.
And does probably also not fit to an <early> fetus, but they are also not guilty and can be expected to become human beings, what makes abortions a sin.
Those, who have sunken into KANT's "self-inflicted im-maturity" - what, to be honest, includes all those here, who can no longer detect differences of themselves to apes or mean, that "rationality" or "profit motive" (!) would be unique to us -, can not be excused, though.
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HillGoose
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2022, 08:28:57 PM »

they're both more human than i am

100% garbage gang wya
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ExtremeRepublican
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2022, 08:40:15 PM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.
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James Monroe
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2022, 12:00:16 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.
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Klobmentum Mutilated Herself
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2022, 01:05:00 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.
Nothing displays the expertise of what apes are or are not than the sentence fragment, "ape or chimpanzee."
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Senator Incitatus
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2022, 06:09:06 AM »

A human fetus is more of a person than many adults, for the inverse of Dule's reasoning.
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ExtremeRepublican
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2022, 08:23:56 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2022, 09:27:28 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.

People are animals. We just happen to be on top of the food chain.

That doesn't mean humans aren't created in the image of God, but man's arrogance to separate us from the rest of nature never produces good outcomes.
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Donerail
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2022, 10:30:00 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.
Chimpanzees (like most apes) are highly intelligent and operate in a complex social context. I see someone hasn't read Jane Goodall.
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James Monroe
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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2022, 10:32:24 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.

Even in the Bible it states Mankind are a form of animals. We just happened to evolve into a supremely intelligent species that makes conception many abstract ideas, which is proven by the years of development from the first Homo species being similar to other Great Apes. Previous Homo species did not communicate or have the same conceptions as modern Homo sapiens. Neanderthals started to have their own language through the cravings of rocks, they still had a primitive thinking in areas where we surpass them, evidently with our own languages and the technologies that have been pioneered through the works of scientists and engineers in the last 300 years.
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James Monroe
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2022, 10:34:17 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.
Chimpanzees (like most apes) are highly intelligent and operate in a complex social context. I see someone hasn't read Jane Goodall.

Yeah, Chimps have intelligence that make them more similar to Us than a non-born fetus. Look at the late Koko, a gorilla who communicate English sign language with fellow human beings.
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2022, 11:26:36 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.

Even in the Bible it states Mankind are a form of animals. We just happened to evolve into a supremely intelligent species that makes conception many abstract ideas, which is proven by the years of development from the first Homo species being similar to other Great Apes. Previous Homo species did not communicate or have the same conceptions as modern Homo sapiens. Neanderthals started to have their own language through the cravings of rocks, they still had a primitive thinking in areas where we surpass them, evidently with our own languages and the technologies that have been pioneered through the works of scientists and engineers in the last 300 years.
https://apologeticspress.org/humans-are-not-animals-5678/

Genesis 1 very clearly states that people are distinct from animals.
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John Dule
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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2022, 11:54:03 AM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.

Even in the Bible it states Mankind are a form of animals. We just happened to evolve into a supremely intelligent species that makes conception many abstract ideas, which is proven by the years of development from the first Homo species being similar to other Great Apes. Previous Homo species did not communicate or have the same conceptions as modern Homo sapiens. Neanderthals started to have their own language through the cravings of rocks, they still had a primitive thinking in areas where we surpass them, evidently with our own languages and the technologies that have been pioneered through the works of scientists and engineers in the last 300 years.
https://apologeticspress.org/humans-are-not-animals-5678/

Genesis 1 very clearly states that people are distinct from animals.

Do you have an argument that appeals to universal values, morals, or reason instead of your subjective religious beliefs? If so, it might be more conducive to your case to use that one.
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afleitch
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2022, 01:23:21 PM »

Strictly speaking, I don't think personhood is a value-category that can be applied across those two examples.

But if I can't opt out of answering then my own view is that 'personhood' is bestowed upon someone who is unborn by the person who will be giving birth to them if they choose to think of what is occurring inside of them is a person to be delivered to term (which aligns with my views on abortion) or is bestowed by virtue of being born by society. As a humanist in that instance, I would have to respect the wishes of the person who is carrying the unborn if they view it as a person, or potential person.

While I completely accept that distinctiveness and closeness of the closest species to us, they are not human and they are not persons.
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fhtagn
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2022, 04:48:09 PM »

The first option is actually human, which is what matters most when considering whether or not someone is a person.
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Senator Incitatus
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2022, 09:36:17 PM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.

People are animals. We just happen to be on top of the food chain.

That doesn't mean humans aren't created in the image of God, but man's arrogance to separate us from the rest of nature never produces good outcomes.

It is literally the prerequisite for every good outcome. We define achievement by that which separates us from beasts.
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2022, 09:41:46 PM »

An unborn baby is made in the Image of God.  An ape or chimpanzee isn't.

You are an ape/primate. If mankind was made in the image of God, then so are our extended primate family.

People are not animals.  Even leaving out the Creation argument where the Bible tells us we aren't, there are no animals that are capable of intelligent life and building a society in the same way that humans are.

People are animals. We just happen to be on top of the food chain.

That doesn't mean humans aren't created in the image of God, but man's arrogance to separate us from the rest of nature never produces good outcomes.

It is literally the prerequisite for every good outcome. We define achievement by that which separates us from beasts.

And humans are highly complex, intelligent, and sophisticated beasts who do not operate solely on instinct, but on logic as well.

If humans are not animals, then what exactly are we? Plants? Germs?
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Georg Ebner
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2022, 09:16:36 AM »
« Edited: May 03, 2022, 09:54:59 AM by Georg Ebner »

Those, who wonder, why an era of selfDEIfication has sunken into animality,, may read the beginning of the "Textos" by GOMEZ DAVILA (span. ed. 1959: pp. 5-9, 17-38 and especially 47-61):

The supra-animalic human is born, as soon as he realizes, that on the one hand he must reach his telos, on the other hand he cannot. Not only accidentally - because he cannot conquer the whole universe [and anyWay: since KANT we know, that the universe is anti-nomical: we can imagine it neither as endless nor as having an end], he cannot be immortal aso. -; but essentially - because he is not a static angel having history, but being history (albeit being not only history).
But as soon as this antAgonism creator-creature is no longer experienced by the creature, it sinks back into animality.
"The human being is born with the birth of GOD [in human mind, G.E.] and dies with the death of GOD [in human mind, G.E.]." (idem)

"The human being is neither an angel [or a GOD, G.E.] nor a beast. And those, who make him an angel [or a beast, G.E.], make him a beast." (PASCAL)

"The path of modern formation goes From humanity By nationality To bestiality." (GRILLPARZER 1849)


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Cassandra
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2022, 08:19:23 PM »

Neither possess the essential attributes of humanity (rationality and the profit motive).

Deeply cursed
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