Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 10:21:52 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 ... 24
Author Topic: Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May  (Read 29983 times)
CumbrianLefty
CumbrianLeftie
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,610
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #200 on: June 07, 2022, 05:18:57 AM »

If you count most of the UK media at the time as "Jew haters" then maybe.

Even most Israelis/Zionists admit stuff like the King David Hotel bombing was indefensible.
Logged
rc18
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 498
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #201 on: June 07, 2022, 05:30:30 AM »
« Edited: June 07, 2022, 05:57:01 AM by rc18 »

If you count most of the UK media at the time as "Jew haters" then maybe.

Even most Israelis/Zionists admit stuff like the King David Hotel bombing was indefensible.

Of course the British media wouldn't be sympathic, the independence movement was de facto at war with Britain! It wasn't just bombings but fighter combat etc. Britain at the time was very anti-semitic, yes, and was carrying out discriminatory policies against the Jews in the mandate.

it is very much defended as a necessary part of achieving independence.

The point is it is all in the eye of the beholder, and indeed larger countries usually dictate the narrative over who is described as a terrorist or a freedom fighter, and there is often no consistency in the term apart from who was fighting against whom.
Logged
Libertas Vel Mors
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,871
United States


Political Matrix
E: 9.03, S: -0.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #202 on: June 07, 2022, 12:51:12 PM »

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...


No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Note, for example, the Jews in Israel conducted many bombings against British targets before independence, in part because of discriminatory policies.

If we are being rational, a key difference between the terms is whether there are legitimate grievances and there is no means to fight more conventionally. What is happening to the Kurds is ethnic cleansing, same as the Turks did to Armenians before. The Kurds are completely outmatched by the Turkish military, it is hardly surprising they must resort to such tactics.

There are plenty worse groups that the US considers friends, and indeed arms,  because the use of the term terrorist is entirely political and not a rational distinction. In fact the US has supported Kurdish groups outside Turkey who use similar tactics. The only reason the PKK is branded a terrorist group is because the US must suck Erdogan's dick.

The Haganah did not use suicide bombings and did not intentionally target civilians. The PKK does.
Logged
Conservatopia
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,182
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: 0.72, S: 8.60

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #203 on: June 08, 2022, 02:43:07 PM »

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...


No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Note, for example, the Jews in Israel conducted many bombings against British targets before independence, in part because of discriminatory policies.

If we are being rational, a key difference between the terms is whether there are legitimate grievances and there is no means to fight more conventionally. What is happening to the Kurds is ethnic cleansing, same as the Turks did to Armenians before. The Kurds are completely outmatched by the Turkish military, it is hardly surprising they must resort to such tactics.

There are plenty worse groups that the US considers friends, and indeed arms,  because the use of the term terrorist is entirely political and not a rational distinction. In fact the US has supported Kurdish groups outside Turkey who use similar tactics. The only reason the PKK is branded a terrorist group is because the US must suck Erdogan's dick.

The Haganah did not use suicide bombings and did not intentionally target civilians. The PKK does.

Sure, but the Irgun trod a pretty narrow line between legitimate action and terrorism whilst the Lehi were outright murderous thugs. Haganah were FFs but they weren't the only active group at the time.

And I say this as somebody who supports the Irgun's cause.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,965
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #204 on: June 08, 2022, 07:37:37 PM »

enough with the israelposting please
Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,511
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #205 on: June 08, 2022, 10:20:57 PM »

Returning to the original thread topic, it looks like we might see Finland joining NATO, but not Sweden:

Sweden’s NATO Bid Is in Trouble
Domestic politics have elevated a Kurdish parliamentarian, and that worsens Stockholm’s Turkey woes.
Logged
LAKISYLVANIA
Lakigigar
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,165
Belgium


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -4.78

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #206 on: June 09, 2022, 01:58:02 AM »

Turkey out.
Sweden in.

Start recognizing Kurdistan.
Logged
Badger
badger
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,258
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #207 on: June 09, 2022, 04:25:26 PM »

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

In retrospect, perhaps our recognizing The Armenian Genocide last year was a bit premature. We could have potentially used a promise not to do so at least for the foreseeable future as alternative leverage against turkey. I'm not saying I opposed that recognition-quite the opposite- but it's fairly symbolic and has more impact on turkeys view of the world than our own. Priorities and all that.
Logged
Pick Up the Phone
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 428


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #208 on: June 09, 2022, 10:48:18 PM »

Turkey out.
Sweden in.

Start recognizing Kurdistan.

Both would be incredibly stupid.
Logged
Lord Halifax
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,304
Papua New Guinea


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #209 on: June 10, 2022, 02:26:58 AM »

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

In retrospect, perhaps our recognizing The Armenian Genocide last year was a bit premature. We could have potentially used a promise not to do so at least for the foreseeable future as alternative leverage against turkey. I'm not saying I opposed that recognition-quite the opposite- but it's fairly symbolic and has more impact on turkeys view of the world than our own. Priorities and all that.

Not recognizing one of the worst genocides ever committed should never be used as a political tool, it was a disgrace it took so long.
Logged
Badger
badger
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,258
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #210 on: June 13, 2022, 05:42:18 PM »

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

In retrospect, perhaps our recognizing The Armenian Genocide last year was a bit premature. We could have potentially used a promise not to do so at least for the foreseeable future as alternative leverage against turkey. I'm not saying I opposed that recognition-quite the opposite- but it's fairly symbolic and has more impact on turkeys view of the world than our own. Priorities and all that.

Not recognizing one of the worst genocides ever committed should never be used as a political tool, it was a disgrace it took so long.

Never Say Never. Recognizing it in a vacuum was the right thing to do and indeed long overdue. However, if given a choice in 2022 where we had not yet made such recognition that if we held off doing so at least a few more years it would permit Sweden and Finland a relatively seamless entry into NATO without having to conduct some very sketchy extraditions of Kurdish activists, I frankly would be okay with that.

As morally correct is it the recognition of the Armenian Genocide is, it's still fundamentally a symbolic gesture. Admission of Sweden and Finland into NATO helps ever-so-slightly squeeze the Vice on Putin's War Machine in the Ukraine which is actively killing thousands.
Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,511
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #211 on: June 14, 2022, 12:38:11 AM »

NATO, Swedish leaders 'committed' to addressing Turkey's terror concerns
Logged
President Johnson
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,592
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -3.23, S: -4.70


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #212 on: June 15, 2022, 02:40:22 PM »

Just [you know what] this guy at this point. Can we trade Sweden and Finland for Turkey?

Logged
Isaak
Rookie
**
Posts: 159
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #213 on: June 15, 2022, 06:14:10 PM »
« Edited: June 15, 2022, 06:17:55 PM by Isaak »

Just [you know what] this guy at this point. Can we trade Sweden and Finland for Turkey?


No, because we're not [you know what]-ing stupid.

1) From a strategic perspective, Türkiye >>> Sweden and Finland. It's not even close.

2) Stoltenberg has already declared that the Turkish concerns are perfectly legitimate. And he is right. The extent to which PKK terrorism is condoned by many Europeans is disgusting.
Logged
Estrella
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,965
Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #214 on: June 15, 2022, 06:58:09 PM »

Just [you know what] this guy at this point. Can we trade Sweden and Finland for Turkey?


No, because we're not [you know what]-ing stupid.

1) From a strategic perspective, Türkiye >>> Sweden and Finland. It's not even close.

2) Stoltenberg has already declared that the Turkish concerns are perfectly legitimate. And he is right. The extent to which PKK terrorism is condoned by many Europeans is disgusting.

lol

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I kinda miss Tender and his vendetta against "Islamofascists".

On a serious note, Sweden can't concede anything, given that Erdoğan hasn't indicated what he actually wants. All he's given us are vague ramblings of an electioneering and/or mad authocrat who is more than happy to interfere in internal politics of his allies when it suits him. This is, after all, the man who once threatened to declare war on the US over their supposed support for the feTHuLlAhiST TerRoRist orGaNiSatiON.
Logged
President Johnson
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,592
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -3.23, S: -4.70


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #215 on: June 28, 2022, 01:44:51 PM »

German media reporting that Turkey has given up opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.

Logged
TiltsAreUnderrated
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,771


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #216 on: June 28, 2022, 01:46:36 PM »

I'm guessing there is, at least, the concession of "We'll look the other way when you invade Tel Rifaat."
Logged
Storr
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,094
Moldova, Republic of


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #217 on: June 28, 2022, 01:47:51 PM »

German media reporting that Turkey has given up opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.



based
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,610
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #218 on: June 28, 2022, 01:49:56 PM »

What an extremely surprising turn of events.
Logged
Alben Barkley
KYWildman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,282
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #219 on: June 28, 2022, 02:03:50 PM »

Fantastic news!

Get f—ked, Putin. Now NATO is bigger and better than ever.
Logged
TiltsAreUnderrated
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,771


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #220 on: June 28, 2022, 02:11:43 PM »

It's not over until the fat lady sings. Turkey isn't likely to flip again, but there's nothing stopping e.g. Hungary from throwing a spanner in the works as late as the final ratification stage (which Finland and Sweden are weeks away from, if not months).
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,178
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #221 on: June 28, 2022, 02:19:53 PM »

Ah great, Erdogan has finally figured that he has played the "Turkey Türkiye First!" macho tough guy for his domestic base long enough.
Logged
Torrain
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,991
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: -1.42, S: -0.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #222 on: June 28, 2022, 03:37:04 PM »
« Edited: June 28, 2022, 03:42:22 PM by Torrain »

It wouldn't be European diplomacy without some toothless sabre-rattling that's easily solved by a hurried closed door deal.

It's one of our oldest traditions.
Logged
TiltsAreUnderrated
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,771


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #223 on: June 29, 2022, 07:30:15 AM »

Erdogan's biggest prize:
Logged
Woody
SirWoodbury
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,047


Political Matrix
E: 1.48, S: 1.30

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #224 on: June 29, 2022, 07:42:16 AM »

And just like that, everyone that was screaming about Trump abandoning the Kurds, forgot the Kurds..
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 ... 24  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.069 seconds with 11 queries.