Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

One thing that does confuse me about this last-minute Turkish objection is: Why did not the USA and other key NATO countries do private discussions with all NATO members to get their support ahead of time before giving Sweden and Finland the green light to start their application process domestically?

Now Sweden and Finland are committed domestically to NATO it is a lot easier for Turkey to get their pound of flesh than if there were private discussions ahead of time to get Turkey to back this.  This entire affair seems like a very bad diplomatic strategy on the part of the USA.

Except Turkey is in a worse position now, Finland and Sweden have gotten security guarantees from USA, UK and several other countries. It means that Finland and Sweden can just outwait Erdogan, and Erdogan will find that his negotiation position is worse right now.

jaichind, who uses "libertarian" as its own antonym, tends to assume that brutal strongmen are megabrained 69-degree-chess grandmasters and liberal-democratic leaders are feckless oafs until proven otherwise.

I still can't get over his take that the BJP should ally with indian muslim cultural elites, as if it's possible to find a group of people who loath each other more than those two.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Yeah, isn't it hard to go forth together when u have no clue why u are together?

When u are together mostly because u are scared of something and u go to ur buddies rather than when u gather around principles that should orientate the behavior of the members within the so called 'Alliance' and of the so called 'Alliance' itself

All this goes straight at the interrogation on the nature of NATO

What is it? What is it for?

In the past, it was to get protection from the USSR, something which had global politico-economical pretentions on the whole World

Nowadays would be more to get protection 'just' from Putin, and Putin is not interested in the World, but mostly in the Russian Empire and in putting the most possible dust in the US/Western mouths

Then, logical enough that Turkey, which is not really in Putin primary targets can feel free to mess within NATO, to even play with whatever efficiency it could have, to buy some Russian weapons, to do whatever to prove its own Turkophone/Islamist Empire itself, and when u see what Turkey now does in Africa, they really try hard to extend

All this (well, sorry, but again) would go straight toward the 'Westernization' of NATO, we were not that far already but still it deepens and almost fully acknowledges it, and thus would also fully follow the current cultural global and individual trends about the 'Tribalization' of the World

[Storr]

The Finnish Foreign Minister:

https://twitter.com/anttikaikkonen/status/1528044222686892032?s=20&t=Z7NGRec...

[Helsinkian]

Another thought.  This entire affair with Turkey shows it might not be wise for NATO to bring Sweden and especially Finland into the alliance.  Just like Turkey is able to vote actions using its leverage of being in NATO, if and when Sweden and Finland join NATO they will also be given such powers and leverage as well.  This is especially true for Finland which will be at the frontline of any conflict with Russia.  This means that a Finland in NATO will veto actions that might provoke Russia over things Finland does not seem critical to Finland's national interests.  A larger NATO does not necessarily mean a stronger NATO is you are increasing the diversity of interests within the alliance.  This is one of many examples to show that diversity is not a strength.

That would surprise me. Our politicians don't really believe in vetos. They never veto anything in the EU, not even decisions that are deleterious to Finnish industry and taxpayers. That's because they believe that a reputation as a trustworthy partner is worth more in the long run.

Nowadays would be more to get protection 'just' from Putin, and Putin is not interested in the World, but mostly in the Russian Empire and in putting the most possible dust in the US/Western mouths

Then, logical enough that Turkey, which is not really in Putin primary targets can feel free to mess within NATO, to even play with whatever efficiency it could have, to buy some Russian weapons, to do whatever to prove its own Turkophone/Islamist Empire itself, and when u see what Turkey now does in Africa, they really try hard to extend

If we're talking about the Russian Empire, remember that taking Constantinople was the Russian Emperors' biggest dream from Catherine the Great onwards...

The Finnish Foreign Minister:

He's the Defence Minister.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

If we're talking about the Russian Empire, remember that taking Constantinople was the Russian Emperors' biggest dream from Catherine the Great onwards...

Hey, they might have discussed it with Kirill, actually wouldnt be surprised so ^^

But anyways, yeah, Turkey has no real significant allies anywhere, then trying to mess everywhere makes sense, especially when u're a kind of geographical and cultural 'tipping area' if those words make sense in English

And, about Russia, whatever sick wet dreams are in whoever minds there, one of the things they have, and potentially in some very vicious ways, and that we have far less here, and that can really be an advantage is...patience

[Middle-aged Europe]

Cancel culture gone wrong! Erdogan cancels the Greek PM:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61562305

"There's no longer anyone called Mitsotakis in my book," Mr Erdogan told reporters after a cabinet meeting.

[Storr]

Then leave.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1529075685892964353?s=20&t=NaKDaw9YQ7y...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Then leave.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1529075685892964353?s=20&t=NaKDaw9YQ7y...

Erdogan wants to make ISIS great again.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Then leave.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1529075685892964353?s=20&t=NaKDaw9YQ7y...

It’s surely a bluff. He can’t seriously want to put NATO in Greece’s camp in the maritime/Cyprus disputes.

[Pick Up the Phone]

Then leave.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1529075685892964353?s=20&t=NaKDaw9YQ7y...

It’s surely a bluff. He can’t seriously want to put NATO in Greece’s camp in the maritime/Cyprus disputes.

I agree. It certainly is a bluff but Turkey seems to be serious about the PKK issue. Contrary to popular belief, Erdogan is no lunatic; he is a pretty rational and smart politician who knows how to play his cards right.

That being said, NATO needs Turkey as much as Turkey needs NATO.

[CumbrianLefty]

We said that about Putin until early this year.

[Middle-aged Europe]

We said that about Putin until early this year.

Maybe Erdogan figures that a truly "neutral" Turkey is the best way going forward for his country in a US/EU/UK vs. China/Russia Cold War 2.0 kind of world... which would include leaving NATO. That would be my explanation unless, which perhaps is even likelier, it's just sabre-rattling because Erdogan is sh**tting his pants due to the prospect of getting ousted by the CHP next year.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Then leave.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1529075685892964353?s=20&t=NaKDaw9YQ7y...

Fwiw by "ally" they mean coalition partner, whose role is to say far right stupid sh**t.

[Torie]

Then leave.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1529075685892964353?s=20&t=NaKDaw9YQ7y...

It’s surely a bluff. He can’t seriously want to put NATO in Greece’s camp in the maritime/Cyprus disputes.

I agree. It certainly is a bluff but Turkey seems to be serious about the PKK issue. Contrary to popular belief, Erdogan is no lunatic; he is a pretty rational and smart politician who knows how to play his cards right.

That being said, NATO needs Turkey as much as Turkey needs NATO.

It seems to me that Turkish autocrat is overplaying his hand, and badly. At some point, he will be placed on ignore by most of those who matter. Granted, one never know how much his natterings are for domestic consumption, and how much are something that reflect something more real. If the autocrat is really able to nix new NATO members, the alliance might just as well pack it in, and reincarnate as a different beast in the forest, with Turkey fenced off.

[vitoNova]

Turkey should be kicked out of NATO.

Did you know they are the only nationality that was strictly prohibited from partying and drinking on NATO deployments in the Balkans, while the rest of us most definitely "got down" after a hard days/nights' work at our camps' international pubs?

Their commanders and NCOs treated those poor sops as if they were still in boot camp.  And no, it was not because of their conscription status because the Greeks are also conscripts and had no such restrictions placed upon them.  

They do not share our secular values and love of fine wine and therefore should never be trusted.  Atatürk is rolling over in his grave.

[It’s so Joever]

Turkey should be kicked out of NATO.

Did you know they are the only nationality that was strictly prohibited from partying and drinking on NATO deployments in the Balkans, while the rest of us most definitely "got down" after a hard days/nights' work at our camps' international pubs?

Their commanders and NCOs treated those poor sops as if they were still in boot camp.  And no, it was not because of their conscription status because the Greeks are also conscripts and had no such restrictions placed upon them.  

They do not share our secular values and love of fine wine and therefore should never be trusted.  Atatürk is rolling over in his grave.

Uh….

[vitoNova]

Turkey should be kicked out of NATO.

Did you know they are the only nationality that was strictly prohibited from partying and drinking on NATO deployments in the Balkans, while the rest of us most definitely "got down" after a hard days/nights' work at our camps' international pubs?

Their commanders and NCOs treated those poor sops as if they were still in boot camp.  And no, it was not because of their conscription status because the Greeks are also conscripts and had no such restrictions placed upon them.  

They do not share our secular values and love of fine wine and therefore should never be trusted.  Atatürk is rolling over in his grave.

Uh….

Sorry.

First-hand experience here actually having served in NATO for a little over 3 years.   

And not just something I've read in the papers and in textbooks.   

[DavidB.]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

[rc18]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

[Libertas Vel Mors]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

[rc18]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Note, for example, the Jews in Israel conducted many bombings against British targets before independence, in part because of discriminatory policies.

If we are being rational, a key difference between the terms is whether there are legitimate grievances and there is no means to fight more conventionally. What is happening to the Kurds is ethnic cleansing, same as the Turks did to Armenians before. The Kurds are completely outmatched by the Turkish military, it is hardly surprising they must resort to such tactics.

There are plenty worse groups that the US considers friends, and indeed arms,  because the use of the term terrorist is entirely political and not a rational distinction. In fact the US has supported Kurdish groups outside Turkey who use similar tactics. The only reason the PKK is branded a terrorist group is because the US must suck Erdogan's dick.

[CumbrianLefty]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Note, for example, the Jews in Israel conducted many bombings against British targets before independence, in part because of discriminatory policies.

Indeed, and they were - and are - widely regarded as terrorist groups for doing so.

[rc18]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Note, for example, the Jews in Israel conducted many bombings against British targets before independence, in part because of discriminatory policies.

Indeed, and they were - and are - widely regarded as terrorist groups for doing so.

By their targets, and various other Jew-haters, yes.

[CumbrianLefty]

If you count most of the UK media at the time as "Jew haters" then maybe.

Even most Israelis/Zionists admit stuff like the King David Hotel bombing was indefensible.