Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May

[CumbrianLefty]

Ukraine has a massive Nazi problem but the West doesn't care because they hate Russia more.

You haven't provided any facts to back up that claim (just like the Russian government usually does), so I'll just say that reality unfortunately disagrees with.

Okay, I just don't leave it that, because here's a fact: The ultranationalist "Svobod" party which notoriously was a junior member in the Ukrainian government back in 2014, has held only a single seat in the 450-member strong Ukrainian parliament since the last legislative election in 2019.

Maybe their definition of "massive" is different to yours and mine?

[Oryxslayer]

Update from the main thread, unsurprisingly its quid pro quo as usual.

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-turkey-not-closing-door-sweden-finland-nato-entry-erdogan-advisor-says-2022-05-14/

And as predicted, Turkey's "no" is not actually a "no", if the price is right. And mainly aimed at Swedish entry, not Finland:

Turkey 'not closing door' to Sweden, Finland NATO entry, Erdogan advisor says.

Turkey has not shut the door to Sweden and Finland joining NATO but wants negotiations with the Nordic countries and a clampdown on what it sees as terrorist activities especially in Stockholm, President Tayyip Erdogan's spokesman said on Saturday.

"We are not closing the door. But we are basically raising this issue as a matter of national security for Turkey," Erdogan's top foreign policy advisor Ibrahim Kalin says.

"What needs to be done is clear: they have to stop allowing PKK outlets, activities, organisations, individuals and other types of presence to...exist in those countries," Kalin said.

[Middle-aged Europe]

NATO should just call Erdogan's bluff IMO. If he really wants Turkey to become the one country to veto Sweden's and Finland's membership then he should just go ahead and find out what it means to effectively move your country towards a pro-Putin position in the current world order.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Ukraine has a massive Nazi problem but the West doesn't care because they hate Russia more.

You haven't provided any facts to back up that claim (just like the Russian government usually does), so I'll just say that reality unfortunately disagrees with.

Okay, I just don't leave it that, because here's a fact: The ultranationalist "Svobod" party which notoriously was a junior member in the Ukrainian government back in 2014, has held only a single seat in the 450-member strong Ukrainian parliament since the last legislative election in 2019.

Maybe their definition of "massive" is different to yours and mine?

Ukraine has a tiny Nazi problem just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

[Big Abraham]

Ukraine has a massive Nazi problem but the West doesn't care because they hate Russia more.

You haven't provided any facts to back up that claim (just like the Russian government usually does), so I'll just say that reality unfortunately disagrees with.

Okay, I just don't leave it that, because here's a fact: The ultranationalist "Svobod" party which notoriously was a junior member in the Ukrainian government back in 2014, has held only a single seat in the 450-member strong Ukrainian parliament since the last legislative election in 2019.

Maybe their definition of "massive" is different to yours and mine?

Ukraine has a tiny Nazi problem just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

America has a tiny Nazi problem. Ukraine has incorporated Nazis into their National Guard.

[Cashew]

Ukraine has a massive Nazi problem but the West doesn't care because they hate Russia more.

You haven't provided any facts to back up that claim (just like the Russian government usually does), so I'll just say that reality unfortunately disagrees with.

Okay, I just don't leave it that, because here's a fact: The ultranationalist "Svobod" party which notoriously was a junior member in the Ukrainian government back in 2014, has held only a single seat in the 450-member strong Ukrainian parliament since the last legislative election in 2019.

I understand that some propagandists take it too far and try to imply that the Ukrainian population are Nazi supporters, but elections results prove nothing about which ideologies are disproportionately represented among the people holding the guns, in this instance the Ukrainian military, I won't claim to know where 5 percent are Nazi or 10 or 50 percent, but that images with symbols like the black sun are still unintentionally released by the western media despite Ukrainian friendly western journalists having every motive for scrubbing them means that enough exist for a few to seep though the cracks, implying that a problem of some sort exists, the Russians may be hypocritical considering own military's Nazi problem, but that does not change that people would rightfully be screaming blood murder if troops in any other western country were confident enough to flaunt their Nazism like happens in Ukraine. it's tempting to ignore this now, but I can't help but worry about what will happen to them afterwards assuming Ukraine emerges from this war intact. To use a more local example the vast majority of LA county votes Democratic, but of course nobody would dare claim that the police represent the county ideologically.

[Alcibiades]

Ukraine has a massive Nazi problem but the West doesn't care because they hate Russia more.

You haven't provided any facts to back up that claim (just like the Russian government usually does), so I'll just say that reality unfortunately disagrees with.

Okay, I just don't leave it that, because here's a fact: The ultranationalist "Svobod" party which notoriously was a junior member in the Ukrainian government back in 2014, has held only a single seat in the 450-member strong Ukrainian parliament since the last legislative election in 2019.

Maybe their definition of "massive" is different to yours and mine?

Ukraine has a tiny Nazi problem just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

America has a tiny Nazi problem. Ukraine has incorporated Nazis into their National Guard.

Ukraine is the least anti-Semitic country in Eastern Europe (and of course has a Jewish president whom your ilk love making thinly veiled anti-Semitic jibes at). Russia on the other hand is basically turning into a fascist state with Putin stepping up his rhetoric about “a self-purification of scum and traitors” at home, while of course carrying out a borderline-genocidal policy at times against Ukrainian civilians. You are spreading Putin’s propaganda of projection.

[CumbrianLefty]

Putin basically defines all those who disagree with him - at home and abroad - as "Nazis" these days.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Biden apparently also pledged support if Russia tried anything, thats like a NATO protection already then, Nordic front would be shut with this for now

But it's really been 'amateur' day by day management, Russia actually had a gap for something here

Thats just been like Ukraine management, first we check what Russia does, then we act, not lucky for Ukraine, lucky for the Westies in the North

With this Russia also chose the perfect timing to claim that now 'West is on War' against them

The military support from US/West became so determining in that war that it's technically true, US statements also almost speaking as if it was their own forces on the ground, with an open goal to turn Russia down, fully reinforces it

Basically Russia already managed to drag 'West' down there in the target, it only belongs to them to see if they want to trigger something and when

Since the start of that conflict i think there is no good solution anyways, either Russia manages its goals and feels all mighty and tries further, or, and thats what's going on, Russia is blocked in its goals, under a lot of pressure, maybe even loses some significant stuffs, and then could become the most dangerous if it feels nothing to lose, then they would certainly prefer we all lose together

Basically it's like Hitler attacked from everywhere counting on V2s to win WW2, just that Russia already is a giant porcupine of some big last technologies V2s equiped with WMDs

It's a full conendrum and thats why it needed f***ing preventive measures before the start, and it needs some for all possible scenarios besides the balls growing and planks at doors

Hey if Johnson has read that thread to propose protection to Finland, keep a look!

Apparently for now they still try to use some time, yesterday's Lavrov statement was also clever enough, in a full troll way as usual but still, at putting it kind of as 'The West vs The World', something that can really find echoes...

[Frodo]

Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, this is entirely of Putin's own doing:

For Putin, a Nordic Nightmare Is Springing to Life

-----------

It is concerning, the potential for NATO expansion to create a world war.
I hope it never gets to that point.

Russia apparently doesn't have the capacity to wage a war, let alone a world war.  I wouldn't worry.  

[Gass3268]

Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, this is entirely of Putin's own doing:

For Putin, a Nordic Nightmare Is Springing to Life

-----------

It is concerning, the potential for NATO expansion to create a world war.
I hope it never gets to that point.

Russia apparently doesn't have the capacity to wage a war, let alone a world war.  I wouldn't worry.   

This article also says:

There was initial alarm as Turkey, a longtime NATO member, signaled this week that it might seek to block the Nordic countries’ joining the alliance. But on Saturday, a spokesman for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey walked back any potential challenge, saying that Turkey was merely trying to ensure that all alliance members’ security concerns were heeded.

So Turkey must have got what they wanted.

[Torrain]

There was initial alarm as Turkey, a longtime NATO member, signaled this week that it might seek to block the Nordic countries’ joining the alliance. But on Saturday, a spokesman for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey walked back any potential challenge, saying that Turkey was merely trying to ensure that all alliance members’ security concerns were heeded.

So Turkey must have got what they wanted.

It wouldn't be European diplomacy without some toothless sabre-rattling that's easily solved by a hurried closed door deal.

It's one of our oldest traditions.

[Santander]

Ukraine is the least anti-Semitic country in Eastern Europe (and of course has a Jewish president whom your ilk love making thinly veiled anti-Semitic jibes at). Russia on the other hand is basically turning into a fascist state with Putin stepping up his rhetoric about “a self-purification of scum and traitors” at home, while of course carrying out a borderline-genocidal policy at times against Ukrainian civilians. You are spreading Putin’s propaganda of projection.

Yeah, I'm going to call BS on this map. Saying Ukraine is the least antisemitic country in Eastern Europe just doesn't pass the sniff test. The ADL antisemitism index shows Ukraine at 46%, while Russia is at 31% and Eastern Europe as a whole is at 34%. (lower scores are better... Sweden is at 4%)

Perhaps, by one very narrow definition of antisemitism, Ukraine does pretty well, but you can hardly make a sweeping declaration based on that.

[President Johnson]

I really can't hide my gloating over this spectacular own goal by Putin. Everything he wanted to accomplish through attacking Ukraine has turned into the exact opposite.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ukraine is a big country in all senses and really very diverse in all sorts of ways; social attitudes and political stances are not uniform across it. There is a particular form of Ukrainian ethnic nationalism that has often been associated with strong antisemitic sentiment, but it has little appeal the far West of the country in general and Galicia in particular. It is notable that Galicia was the only region of Ukraine not to vote for Zelensky in a landslide in the second round of the 2019 election, though he still carried two of its three oblasts. It makes up around about ten per cent or so of the country's population, or at least did so before Wartime. Elsewhere, well, there is a long history of antisemitism in Ukraine, but then there is also a long history of antisemitism in Russia and in literally every country in Europe: such is our history. Insisting that Ukraine had and has a unique problem with it is perverse, doubly so as most of the people presently claiming this are objective antisemites themselves.

Related to this is the Nazi issue, and, once again:

A little bit 'Sins of the Father', don't you think? In any case far more Ukrainians - infinitely more - fought for the Red Army than for Bandera's OUN-B; in fact the eventual victory of the Red Army on the Eastern Front would not have been possible, or even plausible, without Ukrainian troops. The lazy and ridiculous tendency to assume otherwise is an excellent example of Norman Davies's observation that 'they [Ukrainians] were usually presented as 'Russians' or 'Soviets' whenever they were to be praised, and as 'Ukrainians' only when they did evil'.

If the issue is Bandera's memorialisation in contemporary Ukraine, then he is a controversial figure rather than a universally revered one. Zelensky has publicly expressed discomfort at the extent of his memoralisation and on this point he speaks for the majority: Bandera is popular only in Galicia and is actually quite thoroughly detested in much of the rest of the country.

There is an extreme Right political tendency in Ukraine, of course, and it briefly had serious electoral clout in Galicia (if not so much other places). This was disturbing, but is also very much a former phenomenon for the moment: as has already been noted. People associated with that political tendency can be found in the country's armed forces, but in a 'nation under arms' situation, what else would you expect? There are also anarchists and similar groups present in the Ukrainian military: it is a very unusual and very extreme situation.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, this is entirely of Putin's own doing:

For Putin, a Nordic Nightmare Is Springing to Life

-----------

It is concerning, the potential for NATO expansion to create a world war.
I hope it never gets to that point.

Russia apparently doesn't have the capacity to wage a war, let alone a world war.  I wouldn't worry.   

This article also says:

There was initial alarm as Turkey, a longtime NATO member, signaled this week that it might seek to block the Nordic countries’ joining the alliance. But on Saturday, a spokesman for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey walked back any potential challenge, saying that Turkey was merely trying to ensure that all alliance members’ security concerns were heeded.

So Turkey must have got what they wanted.

The issue was that Sweden and Finland are relatively friendly to the PKK and the entities in its orbit, as well as FETO.

[Frodo]

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1525860672252297218

[Badger]

Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, this is entirely of Putin's own doing:

For Putin, a Nordic Nightmare Is Springing to Life

-----------

It is concerning, the potential for NATO expansion to create a world war.
I hope it never gets to that point.

Russia apparently doesn't have the capacity to wage a war, let alone a world war.  I wouldn't worry.   

This article also says:

There was initial alarm as Turkey, a longtime NATO member, signaled this week that it might seek to block the Nordic countries’ joining the alliance. But on Saturday, a spokesman for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey walked back any potential challenge, saying that Turkey was merely trying to ensure that all alliance members’ security concerns were heeded.

So Turkey must have got what they wanted.

proved.

Probably promises, to what degree of enforceability is unknown, for Sweden to provide Intelligence on pkk activities there.

[Sir Mohamed]

https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/1526202105731629056

[Big Abraham]

Upending 200+ years of military non-alignment for... what, exactly? Is Sweden's security really at greater risk today than at any point since the time of Napoleon?

The Swedish Left Party is leading the opposition to this, but they'll doubtlessly be branded as nefarious Putinists.

[Gass3268]

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1526221266864197632?s=21&t=X24Dj9x5Jiey...

[President Johnson]

Yeah, Vlad, but you know that NATO kept its word until February 24 by NOT sending more than a few thousand troops into NATO members bordering Russia, right? Even after you invaded Georgia, Donbas and Crimea, we kept out word. You didn't.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The dictator of Turkey doubles down on his opposition to Sweden's und Finland's NATO memberships.


https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/1526252639046057991

[Torrain]

They won’t join anytime soon - but man… if this is true, Putin’s war may have undercut concept of neutrality in Europe entirely…

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1526333836556222467
Edit: here’s the source article from Reuters - this is for real. Putin - such a strategic ‘genius’ he broke Swiss neutrality, one of the fundamental laws of European politics, and made them oppose him.  
https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/neutral-switzerland-leans-closer-nato-response-russia-2022-05-15/

[CumbrianLefty]

The dictator of Turkey doubles down on his opposition to Sweden's und Finland's NATO memberships.


https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/1526252639046057991

Ultimately, he won't veto - I remain pretty confident about this.