For the first time, guns were leading cause of death in children and teens in 2020

[Joe Republic]

Actually, I am telling you something you don't know, because that quote only refers to "homicides" without specifically explaining whether "homicides" includes accidents, or what percentage of those deaths are the result of gang violence.

You're telling me that gang violence is a contributor to the number of gun homicides as if any of us don't already know that.

[John Dule]

Actually, I am telling you something you don't know, because that quote only refers to "homicides" without specifically explaining whether "homicides" includes accidents, or what percentage of those deaths are the result of gang violence.

You're telling me that gang violence is a contributor to the number of gun homicides as if any of us don't already know that.

Person Man said this:

I'm not sure where you are going with this or at least only half so. You don't think most of these gun deaths amongst children were accidental?

So I responded by saying that yes, I am indeed saying that most of those gun deaths among children were not accidental. Sometimes to understand other people's posts, you need to first read the posts they're replying to. It's ok though! You'll get the hang of it eventually.

[Joe Republic]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Yeah stupid libtards and their... *checks notes* ...frustrations with children needlessly dying.

Lol. Yall think literally every single unrelated policy yall support saves eleventy billion kids from dying. Its why no one takes progs seriously anymore and why yall are losing in Florida. If you screech "children will DIE!" 500 times about even the most mundane of disagreements, no one will believe you. Like Psaki's fake crying this week over reverting kindergarten to the curriculum status quo of 2012. Its why no one takes yall seriously anymore when you derp about "racism" or "nazis" or "fascists". Crying wolf has ruined lefty messaging.

The UK had its own Sandy Hook back in 1995.  The government banned handgun ownership a year or so later.*  How many school shootings has the UK had since then?  I'm curious; have they had more than the 382 children shot dead in US schools over the same period, or less?  What about the 703 shooting injuries in our schools?  More or less?

(* To any smooth brains reading this, yes I'm aware that our government-of-the-day can't just go ahead and do the same thing even if it wanted to.  Hence the crisis we're all choosing to live in.)

[Joe Republic]

Actually, I am telling you something you don't know, because that quote only refers to "homicides" without specifically explaining whether "homicides" includes accidents, or what percentage of those deaths are the result of gang violence.

You're telling me that gang violence is a contributor to the number of gun homicides as if any of us don't already know that.

Person Man said this:

I'm not sure where you are going with this or at least only half so. You don't think most of these gun deaths amongst children were accidental?

So I responded by saying that yes, I am indeed saying that most of those gun deaths among children were not accidental. Sometimes to understand other people's posts, you need to first read the posts they're replying to. It's ok though! You'll get the hang of it eventually.

You started us all on this weird tangent of talking about car accidents, not me.

[Ferguson97]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Yeah stupid libtards and their... *checks notes* ...frustrations with children needlessly dying.

Lol. Yall think literally every single unrelated policy yall support saves eleventy billion kids from dying.

Please explain how suggestion gun control policies would be "unrelated" to a discussion about an increase in deaths by firearms.

[John Dule]

You started us all on this weird tangent of talking about car accidents, not me.

This thread is essentially saying "For the first time in decades, guns killed more children than cars! This proves guns are the real problem!" Is it a "weird tangent" to point out the obvious flaw in that argument?

[Joe Republic]

You started us all on this weird tangent of talking about car accidents, not me.

This thread is essentially saying "For the first time in decades, guns killed more children than cars! This proves guns are the real problem!" Is it a "weird tangent" to point out the obvious flaw in that argument?

I'm happy to agree with you that car safety will always be a problem, but like I already told you before, thanks to increased government regulation and improved safety technologies by car manufacturers, it's a declining one.

The same is not true for gun violence, as we see more of them sold into circulation, fewer regulations, less interest in mandatory safety classes on how to use them, and yes, gang violence driven by increased poverty.

I've admitted that car accidents are a problem, but I'm happy to see the results of improved regulation and safety standards.  You don't seem interested in admitting that guns are also a problem, let alone advocating for similarly improved regulations and safety standards.  Do I have that wrong?

[Mr. Reactionary]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Yeah stupid libtards and their... *checks notes* ...frustrations with children needlessly dying.

Lol. Yall think literally every single unrelated policy yall support saves eleventy billion kids from dying.

Please explain how suggestion gun control policies would be "unrelated" to a discussion about an increase in deaths by firearms.

Because the increase in death by firearms is almost entirely driven by gang violence and a reduction in policing.

[Person Man]

Actually, I am telling you something you don't know, because that quote only refers to "homicides" without specifically explaining whether "homicides" includes accidents, or what percentage of those deaths are the result of gang violence.

You're telling me that gang violence is a contributor to the number of gun homicides as if any of us don't already know that.

Person Man said this:

I'm not sure where you are going with this or at least only half so. You don't think most of these gun deaths amongst children were accidental?

So I responded by saying that yes, I am indeed saying that most of those gun deaths among children were not accidental. Sometimes to understand other people's posts, you need to first read the posts they're replying to. It's ok though! You'll get the hang of it eventually.

You started us all on this weird tangent of talking about car accidents, not me.

At least we are not talking about abortion as a major source of mortality.

[John Dule]

I'm happy to agree with you that car safety will always be a problem, but like I already told you before, thanks to increased government regulation and improved safety technologies by car manufacturers, it's a declining one.

The same is not true for gun violence, as we see more of them sold into circulation, fewer regulations, less interest in mandatory safety classes on how to use them, and yes, gang violence driven by increased poverty.

I've admitted that car accidents are a problem, but I'm happy to see the results of improved regulation and safety standards.  You don't seem interested in admitting that guns are also a problem, let alone advocating for similarly improved regulations and safety standards.  Do I have that wrong?

I must once again reiterate the point I made earlier in this thread: Most gun deaths are intentional. Most vehicle deaths are accidental. It is possible to prevent accidents, and to lessen their negative consequences, with additional safety features. It is much, much harder to use "safety features" to prevent something from being used to intentionally cause harm.

There are many potential solutions to gun violence, but few of them involve regulating the weapons directly. We must instead address the real problem-- the socioeconomic factors inducing people to kill. The majority of gun deaths fall into one of two categories: (1) Suicides by middle-aged men, and (2) Homicides by minors in high-crime cities. It is deeply saddening to me that some people look at these statistics and say "Yeah, you're in an economically depressed area, you have no prospects or hope of ascending the social ladder, and your skills are completely uncompetitive on the market... so our solution is to take away your guns, because we're afraid you'll lash out at someone."

[Schiff for Senate]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Unlike blue avatars, red/maroon/sane posters don't think it's enough to look at these stats and go, "Thoughts and prayers. It's a tragedy." They actually want to stop more tragedies like this and bring the stats down. Seriously, what do you propose? That that's what we do? That we look at these statistics, give a meaningless pat phrase, and move on? No. We need action, and somehow, the GOP and NRA have convinced folks like you that that's a bad thing and the solution is to sit around, say its a tragedy, and then wait for it to magically go away (it won't). We desperately need major action to correct this. It's sad that the GOP and NRA have jointly convinced so many (including you, it seems) that children's lives aren't worth protecting and aren't worth much more than the empty "Thoughts and prayers" that they offer whenever a tragic gun shooting occurs.

EDIT: TLDR: It's apparently controversial to try and suggest an obvious solution to a problem in a thread about that problem.

[Schiff for Senate]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

So what's your solution?  Let's hear it.  Do you have one?

Greg can offer (checks notes from the NRA/GOP) "Thoughts and prayers."
Actual solutions, however, would go too far and would violate (checks notes for a second time) muh 2nd Amendment.

[Schiff for Senate]

Yes, let's focus on the fact that guns became #1 while wholly ignoring what the reigning champ has been for decades.

It's possible to focus on more than one issue at the same time.
I'm sick of the GOP and NRA putting a stop to any bill that would've ensured we never got here in the first place.

[Schiff for Senate]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Yeah stupid libtards and their... *checks notes* ...frustrations with children needlessly dying.

Lol. Yall think literally every single unrelated policy yall support saves eleventy billion kids from dying.

Well, do you have any other solutions? Or are empty "thought and prayers" just enough for you?

[Schiff for Senate]

You started us all on this weird tangent of talking about car accidents, not me.

This thread is essentially saying "For the first time in decades, guns killed more children than cars! This proves guns are the real problem!" Is it a "weird tangent" to point out the obvious flaw in that argument?

Maybe gun violence isn't the problem but it's certainly a problem. And I don't see why we shouldn't focus on it (also given that automobile accidents have been declining and gun deaths among kids/teens having been increasing).

[John Dule]

Every time I post in a thread about gun violence, someone inevitably asks me "sO whAt'S yOUr soLuTioN!??!?!" as if it's a gotcha. I have posted several potential solutions to gun violence on threads like these, none of which involve regulating guns directly (because that is both unconstitutional and a fool's errand):

- Eliminate school funding based on property taxes. Fund all schools proportionately to the size of their student body, with some exceptions for geographic requirements. This will provide more economic opportunity to underfunded inner-city schools.

- Increased rigor in public education. Raise the reading, writing, and mathematics standards at all grade levels. Enforce national guidelines that will hold kids back in only the specific classes they have not passed. Do not eliminate end-of-year testing or standardized tests.

- Allow parents to choose where to send their kids. Eliminate school districts. If a school loses too much of its student body to be viable, its administration will be fired and the buildings will be put under the control of a more successful school.

- Increase access to safe and legal abortion so that poor families are not saddled with caring for kids they cannot afford.

- Pardon all nonviolent drug offenders.

- Institute a negative income tax to encourage people to work, and to give low earners more economic security.

- Increase police funding, but require body cameras for officers and prioritize hiring officers to work in communities they are familiar with.

- A stock option buying program for workers who were displaced by automation.

I'm not asking anyone to respond to these individually, and I don't care if you agree with me on them or not. But contrary to popular belief, pro-2nd Amendment people do have ideas and solutions to this problem.

[Ferguson97]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Yeah stupid libtards and their... *checks notes* ...frustrations with children needlessly dying.

Lol. Yall think literally every single unrelated policy yall support saves eleventy billion kids from dying.

Please explain how suggestion gun control policies would be "unrelated" to a discussion about an increase in deaths by firearms.

Because the increase in death by firearms is almost entirely driven by gang violence and a reduction in policing.

We don't have to treat the pre-2020 numbers as an acceptable price to pay for the right of gun ownership.

[Alben Barkley]

Wow!

Cars are getting safer!

[Joe Republic]

Dule, some (not all) of your proposals could reduce poverty and help society, and I'm all for it.  That will then naturally reduce the desire to kill other people or themselves; this we can agree.

But here's the thing: every country on the planet suffers from poverty and the multitude of related issues that go with it, including violent crime and suicide.  But despite that, you know what virtually all other first world countries don't have a problem with?  Guns.  On that we stand nearly alone.

[Alben Barkley]

Dule, some (not all) of your proposals could reduce poverty and help society, and I'm all for it.  That will then naturally reduce the desire to kill other people or themselves; this we can agree.

But here's the thing: every country on the planet suffers from poverty and the multitude of related issues that go with it, including violent crime and suicide.  But despite that, you know what virtually all other first world countries don't have a problem with?  Guns.  On that we stand nearly alone.

We also stand alone on the sheer number of guns on the streets of this country, which outnumbers the population. There is simply no reasonable, direct comparison between the US and any other country in the world on this issue. Like it or not, guns are part of our culture and have been from the very start. It makes the same solutions other countries have implemented impossible to effectively implement here, even if we ignore all the constitutional/legal/ethical issues.

[John Dule]

Dule, some (not all) of your proposals could reduce poverty and help society, and I'm all for it.  That will then naturally reduce the desire to kill other people or themselves; this we can agree.

But here's the thing: every country on the planet suffers from poverty and the multitude of related issues that go with it, including violent crime and suicide.  But despite that, you know what virtually all other first world countries don't have a problem with?  Guns.  On that we stand nearly alone.

I think this argument overlooks the racial component to poverty in America. Sure, maybe at face value, a country like Bulgaria has a bigger "poverty problem" than we do. But what Bulgaria (and most of Europe) does not have is an underclass of ethnically distinct citizens who feel that no matter what they do, they will be unable to advance in society. Is it any wonder that gun violence is so prevalent among young black men in inner cities who never received decent educations, get harassed by the police, have no job opportunities, and live in food deserts with no public transportation and inadequate infrastructure?

Again, the statistics bear this out. Whites in Wisconsin experience gun violence roughly equivalent to gun violence in Canada. Blacks in Wisconsin, meanwhile, experience gun violence on the level of Central America. That is an insane disparity, and one that simply cannot be explained by differences in gun ownership rates.

I agree that the cultural significance of guns in America (of which the 2A is a major element) plays a part in this-- but it is not the deciding factor many seem to think it is. It should not be shocking that economically depressed segments of our society resort to violence when they feel they have no other options. What is shocking-- to me, at least-- is the fact that White America (with its propensity for gun ownership) manages to have homicide rates in line with places like Canada and the Czech Republic.

[Joe Republic]

Dule, some (not all) of your proposals could reduce poverty and help society, and I'm all for it.  That will then naturally reduce the desire to kill other people or themselves; this we can agree.

But here's the thing: every country on the planet suffers from poverty and the multitude of related issues that go with it, including violent crime and suicide.  But despite that, you know what virtually all other first world countries don't have a problem with?  Guns.  On that we stand nearly alone.

We also stand alone on the sheer number of guns on the streets of this country, which outnumbers the population. There is simply no reasonable, direct comparison between the US and any other country in the world on this issue. Like it or not, guns are part of our culture and have been from the very start. It makes the same solutions other countries have implemented impossible to effectively implement here, even if we ignore all the constitutional/legal/ethical issues.

Yeah I know, this country already lost its mind a long time ago, and the solution is to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.  I don't need to be reminded.

[Alben Barkley]

Dule, some (not all) of your proposals could reduce poverty and help society, and I'm all for it.  That will then naturally reduce the desire to kill other people or themselves; this we can agree.

But here's the thing: every country on the planet suffers from poverty and the multitude of related issues that go with it, including violent crime and suicide.  But despite that, you know what virtually all other first world countries don't have a problem with?  Guns.  On that we stand nearly alone.

We also stand alone on the sheer number of guns on the streets of this country, which outnumbers the population. There is simply no reasonable, direct comparison between the US and any other country in the world on this issue. Like it or not, guns are part of our culture and have been from the very start. It makes the same solutions other countries have implemented impossible to effectively implement here, even if we ignore all the constitutional/legal/ethical issues.

Yeah I know, this country already lost its mind a long time ago, and the solution is to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.  I don't need to be reminded.

There are still reforms and regulations that can be implemented, but they need to be realistic and actually effective. Banning certain types or features of guns more because they look scary than because of any actual increased danger, as the '94 AWB essentially did, doesn't do anything. It's like the "Bear Patrol" from The Simpsons:

But yes, it's true that no matter what reforms are implemented, gun violence is never going to go away and probably will still be higher in this country than most other developed Western countries. It's just a fact of life we have to deal with, and the sooner people accept that, the better. I honestly would advise most people here, especially those living in potentially dangerous situations, to own a gun and know how to use it. Don't unilaterally disarm, or indeed there is truth in the saying that only the "bad guys" will own guns. The Swiss train and arm their people, and they have fewer issues than us.

There is also the fact that despite the long history of guns in the US, including semi-automatic pistols/rifles and machine guns, we didn't really see things like these mass shootings until the 90s (after many machine guns were effectively banned in the 80s in fact). It's a complex modern phenomenon clearly very much influenced by culture and mental health more than just the existence and availability of guns, which if anything has declined a bit since the old days. (Unlike then, you do need background checks in most cases, under 21 can't buy handguns and in many states rifles, etc.)

[Mr. Reactionary]

Cue the red and maroon avs screeching about why we need gun control in 3, 2, 1

Yeah stupid libtards and their... *checks notes* ...frustrations with children needlessly dying.

Lol. Yall think literally every single unrelated policy yall support saves eleventy billion kids from dying.

Please explain how suggestion gun control policies would be "unrelated" to a discussion about an increase in deaths by firearms.

Because the increase in death by firearms is almost entirely driven by gang violence and a reduction in policing.

We don't have to treat the pre-2020 numbers as an acceptable price to pay for the right of gun ownership.

Well yeah, so do Dule's ideas and increase policing.

[It’s so Joever]

We need better COMMUNITY in our country. The truth is, a lot of places with high violence simply don’t have that community that prevents it. This is beyond a poverty thing, while economics plays a role it goes far beyond that. From birth, every child should feel tied strongly to not just their family, but their neighbors and peers. Until we foster community values (most of which is not something we can legislate but rather something Americans have to decide upon themselves) we will be nowhere. This is why I fear the fall of the church FYI, it’s one of the last remnants of community in many parts of the country and as it does…nothing replaces it.